Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #22

[redplanet]

IMO the first PJ investigation (headed by GA) got their examination of entry/exit drastically wrong. Fortunately a team from the better 2nd PJ investigation (headed by PR) actually went to the apartment and reexamined from square one and thoroughly tested every route and method of entry and exit. Hopefully PR's team also rechecked the photographs of the prints?

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

Earlier in the threads I posted a linked article from the DM which stated that MM was killed in a similar way to TB and MP. This line was also in another newspaper (possibility the Sun) link, however I believe it was later removed from both (just this line, the remainder of the article stayed the same).

This article uses the terms ‘The sequence of occasions’:
https://www.newslir.com/is-suspect-in-maddie-mccann-disappearance-a-child-serial-killer/%3famp

The only question is why the body of MM was not found ? The one/s who did the Tristan Brubach and the Monika Pawlak didn't bother to properly dispose of the body. I don't know. I can't "clear out" CB from those 2 crimes as I can't clear him out from the Carola Titze one. Don't have enough data.

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

Earlier in the threads I posted a linked article from the DM which stated that MM was killed in a similar way to TB and MP. This line was also in another newspaper (possibility the Sun) link, however I believe it was later removed from both (just this line, the remainder of the article stayed the same).

This article uses the terms ‘The sequence of occasions’:
https://www.newslir.com/is-suspect-in-maddie-mccann-disappearance-a-child-serial-killer/%3famp

At any rate if that is truth it would be very bad for MM... Let's hope it's not the case. TB killer did the act in front of other youngsters/children; maybe un-aware it was been watched. At any rate MM crime apears to be more planned or at least appears that the killer did move her considerably and also if she was then killed the body was properly disposed. Also I don't know if CB would abuse of "boys" as aparently he only abused girls but there are statements that when he had his quioske he would provide "presents" or gifts to children mainly boys.

At any rate I don't want to go as far as making a link on those cases. Things must be carefully checked by people who have all facts. Where was CB living when TB was killed ? Did someone saw CB nearby apart from that e-fit of the TB killer ? How old would the witnsess of TB killer would give to the suspect ? Also was CB seen on the nearby area on the days prior and after the killing ? I don't think that we will ever have sufficient data either to link him or to exclude him. For now i will place him on the "possible but not likely" category for TB killer but i will have to re-check this also later.

I don't think that from one moment to the other the single possible killer of MM would be the guy killing all murdered missing children over Portugal, Germany and surrounding countries.

Our minds are playing tricks at us.

If CB if found to be guilty of MM killing that by itself doesn't make him the suspect/killer on ALL other cases even if he is somehow (very unlikely) linked to some more.

Then again proper investigation needs to be done and it's on it's way as we talk. By now BKA will have way more data than us. Yet again I think the links are week otherwise, by the way HCW is acting regarding the MM case if there were STRONG indications that CB could have done any of the other crimes then BKA would be asking on the press for people to assist them with details that would help in framing / busting CB for those same crimes, same way they are asking for people to provide info on CB regarding phone calls, cars, where he was, etc on the time MM went missing.

It would HELP ALLOT for the MM case if CB were to be linked to other crimes as it would make him a serial-killer and chances of doing the MM case would be higher at least in the eyes of the general public, so if BKA were to be considering as a serious option the link of CB on those same crimes by now they would have asked for more details to the general public or would have gone public as they did with the MM case saying they have evidences that she died and CB is the killer.

The problem with linking CB to all the other crimes is that the real suspects/killers of the mentioned crimes would "get away" with the crime and would no longer be investigated if the case were to be "solved" by a killer CB that was charged with MM killing.

We must be very carefull when making those links and we need to be 100% sure that there are reasonable reasons to suspect CB over those same crimes.

At any rate for now I'm starting to "agree" that most likely HCW does have something significant on CB OVER MM case but even so i don't think it will be enough for a charge meaning that even if he is the MM killer he might at the end get away with it.

Also the linked crimes don't match a patter. For example on other serial killer crimes it's possible to find a "pattern". Example Martin Ney crimes. On CB "possible" links we have a "mix" of cases with compleltly different profile for the victims and circunstances of way they went missing. I can't see a logic pattern so I will discard the links by now and check the cases one by one.

For example on the Peggy case I found it to be even a lack of respect for the family of Peggy pain to even consider CB as the one who killed Peggy, because on Peggy case there are suspects who confessed, then removed the confession and got free and when the body was found they were found to be guilty by forensic evidences and other evidences that were aquired later but couldn't be charged as they were aquitted. This had became a huge issue and it's also one of he reasons HCW is claiming that he wants to be sure that CB does get charged and goes to jail for MM crime otherwise if he is aquitted he will not be charged again as German law doesn't allow that, if he is found to be charged and not guilty later if there are new evidences he can't be charged again. On Peggy case everyone know who Peggy killers are so considering CB as a possible Peggy killer it's absurd.

But yes, everything have to be properly checked, things have to be clearly defined and we should properly use our judgment as well so that we don't create false innocents on some cases in favor of a "CB killer" just because he was living "somewhere" on Germany or Portugal when someone else (random) went missing.

 

[Trivento]

Just stepping out from the topic a second...is fascinating to read all the musings and theories on here....but sometimes wonder where all this is going....is it just a place for us to vent our questions and opinions.....or does anyone with any real influence in the case read this stuff and take account of it do you think..or does anyone forward theories and conclusions on here to OG etc..?
Just curious...

 

[Lilly b]

It's interesting that we are discussing......... 'The Doors' .......all over again.

Lol, pointless at best, its what happened after that matters

<modsnip>

At any rate if that is truth it would be very bad for MM... Let's hope it's not the case. TB killer did the act in front of other youngsters/children; maybe un-aware it was been watched. At any rate MM crime apears to be more planned or at least appears that the killer did move her considerably and also if she was then killed the body was properly disposed. Also I don't know if CB would abuse of "boys" as aparently he only abused girls but there are statements that when he had his quioske he would provide "presents" or gifts to children mainly boys.

At any rate I don't want to go as far as making a link on those cases. Things must be carefully checked by people who have all facts. Where was CB living when TB was killed ? Did someone saw CB nearby apart from that e-fit of the TB killer ? How old would the witnsess of TB killer would give to the suspect ? Also was CB seen on the nearby area on the days prior and after the killing ? I don't think that we will ever have sufficient data either to link him or to exclude him. For now i will place him on the "possible but not likely" category for TB killer but i will have to re-check this also later.

I don't think that from one moment to the other the single possible killer of MM would be the guy killing all murdered missing children over Portugal, Germany and surrounding countries.

Our minds are playing tricks at us.

If CB if found to be guilty of MM killing that by itself doesn't make him the suspect/killer on ALL other cases even if he is somehow (very unlikely) linked to some more.

Then again proper investigation needs to be done and it's on it's way as we talk. By now BKA will have way more data than us. Yet again I think the links are week otherwise, by the way HCW is acting regarding the MM case if there were STRONG indications that CB could have done any of the other crimes then BKA would be asking on the press for people to assist them with details that would help in framing / busting CB for those same crimes, same way they are asking for people to provide info on CB regarding phone calls, cars, where he was, etc on the time MM went missing.

It would HELP ALLOT for the MM case if CB were to be linked to other crimes as it would make him a serial-killer and chances of doing the MM case would be higher at least in the eyes of the general public, so if BKA were to be considering as a serious option the link of CB on those same crimes by now they would have asked for more details to the general public or would have gone public as they did with the MM case saying they have evidences that she died and CB is the killer.

The problem with linking CB to all the other crimes is that the real suspects/killers of the mentioned crimes would "get away" with the crime and would no longer be investigated if the case were to be "solved" by a killer CB that was charged with MM killing.

We must be very carefull when making those links and we need to be 100% sure that there are reasonable reasons to suspect CB over those same crimes.

At any rate for now I'm starting to "agree" that most likely HCW does have something significant on CB OVER MM case but even so i don't think it will be enough for a charge meaning that even if he is the MM killer he might at the end get away with it.

Also the linked crimes don't match a patter. For example on other serial killer crimes it's possible to find a "pattern". Example Martin Ney crimes. On CB "possible" links we have a "mix" of cases with compleltly different profile for the victims and circunstances of way they went missing. I can't see a logic pattern so I will discard the links by now and check the cases one by one.

For example on the Peggy case I found it to be even a lack of respect for the family of Peggy pain to even consider CB as the one who killed Peggy, because on Peggy case there are suspects who confessed, then removed the confession and got free and when the body was found they were found to be guilty by forensic evidences and other evidences that were aquired later but couldn't be charged as they were aquitted. This had became a huge issue and it's also one of he reasons HCW is claiming that he wants to be sure that CB does get charged and goes to jail for MM crime otherwise if he is aquitted he will not be charged again as German law doesn't allow that, if he is found to be charged and not guilty later if there are new evidences he can't be charged again. On Peggy case everyone know who Peggy killers are so considering CB as a possible Peggy killer it's absurd.

But yes, everything have to be properly checked, things have to be clearly defined and we should properly use our judgment as well so that we don't create false innocents on some cases in favor of a "CB killer" just because he was living "somewhere" on Germany or Portugal when someone else (random) went missing.

I don't mean to be rude, but it's like your going round in circles, no one knows what happened, and it's you that wants to link cb to other crimes, as you point out, you are doing some sort of research to lots of missing children, can I ask why? And it's not being negative, I am generally interested, even your user name is something to do with missing children, can you enlighten me, lots of us have been on this site for months, and a lot of what you say has been discussed before

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

Just stepping out from the topic a second...is fascinating to read all the musings and theories on here....but sometimes wonder where all this is going....is it just a place for us to vent our questions and opinions.....or does anyone with any real influence in the case read this stuff and take account of it do you think..or does anyone forward theories and conclusions on here to OG etc..?
Just curious...

I think that the majority of people here are just random people that does discuss the case trying to guess what did happen to MM, I'm not aware that official MM family or police does read this forum, but we never know.

As a matter of fact I'm almost posirtive that at least BKA IS NOT reading this forum.

Webleuths claim that many members of families are thankfull to them because they help talking about the missing people cases, etc (you can read the topic for new websleuths members, etc) but on the case of MM I don't think this is getting any other attention apart from normal random people who discuss the case.

As for me I'm here with another objective. I'm using this forum to compile info and I'm using other forums as well like German allmystery forum as a source of data that was availabe to the general public to make my own judgment on anoher case that I'm working on.

I'M NOT providing LEA with any data on the MM case and I'm not following/working on anything MM related but on my specific case i will be contacting LEA myself shortly sending them a "review" that I've done on another matter/case as I do need their help to exclude some suspects that I do have on another case (again not MM related). So yes, at some degree I will be providing LEA with some info but it's NOT MM related.

I don't have a clue if other people from here are investigators, etc that will gather info as well to pass on to people working on MM case like operation grange, or even private detectives for MM case (if there are any one left)...

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

(...)
I don't mean to be rude, but it's like your going round in circles, no one knows what happened, and it's you that wants to link cb to other crimes, as you point out, you are doing some sort of research to lots of missing children, can I ask why? And it's not being negative, I am generally interested, even your user name is something to do with missing children, can you enlighten me, lots of us have been on this site for months, and a lot of what you say has been discussed before

I'm doing checking CB in general. I'm here at MM thread/forum just because CB is "linked" to MM case. I'm checking ALL cases that CB might be linked to. And It's the other way, I don't want to link CB to other cases, I'm just checking if it's possible/likely that CB might be guilty on other cases. But at the present time I'm already confident with all that I did gather. And very relaxed as well.

So I decided to make a "pause" on what i was doing and decided to comment a little bit on the MM case because I did end up reading / re-freshing my mind on it and not to be rude as this is a MM thread I decide to post what in my mind I think might have happened to MM, just that, but yes, no-one knows what did happen for sure and I didn't ruled out other possibilites (on MM case) apart from a pedo/killer so as you say i'm running in circles...

At least I do have more info on CB that i did had when i did start my research just some weeks ago and now I'm happy with it !

I will have to wait now and see if CB is going to be charged over MM or not. All the rest and untill BKA can provide more details it will be just speculation and we are going no-where.

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

Lol, pointless at best, its what happened after that matters

If I were "investigating" the MM case (let's say as a PI - Private Investigator) I would go to that apartment and I would hire it (if still possible and if not i would have done it anyway on the time MM went missing). I would want to see with my eyes the apartment. Of course that I would try myself to pick that lock open or to access the house. I would want to experiment myself. This is what I would have done if i were on MM case.

It doesn't matter if X expert says it's possible or not. Those experts so far couldn't crack the MM case and as far as I know PJ would be the ones interested in saying that it would be impossible to open that door from the outside so that they could "push" theyr theory on what did happen.

Again, best thing would be to try by myself, and if it was not possible to rent the same apartment i would had tried to rent another similar one on ocean club.

The map is not the territory.

 

[SuperdadV8]

What is the source of your interest in CB? Did you used to live with him in the same area or maybe close to PDL?

 

[redplanet]

In a Devon case here is an example of an alert in a location where the victim was not, but had however at some stage been only temporarily placed.

A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect
was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near
to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at
the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass.
The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been
initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2482.jpg

 

[redplanet]

... and given that an EVRD can identify a location of temporary placement... IMO BKA have good EVRD resources and are likely to have deployed those resources on addresses and vehicles, of their suspect.

 

[Scorpiette]

In a Devon case here is an example of an alert in a location where the victim was not, but had however at some stage been only temporarily placed.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2482.jpg

Which case was this, Redplanet?

 

[redplanet]

If I were "investigating" the MM case (let's say as a PI - Private Investigator) I would go to that apartment and I would hire it (if still possible and if not i would have done it anyway on the time MM went missing). I would want to see with my eyes the apartment. Of course that I would try myself to pick that lock open or to access the house. I would want to experiment myself. This is what I would have done if i were on MM case.

It doesn't matter if X expert says it's possible or not. Those experts so far couldn't crack the MM case and as far as I know PJ would be the ones interested in saying that it would be impossible to open that door from the outside so that they could "push" theyr theory on what did happen.

Again, best thing would be to try by myself, and if it was not possible to rent the same apartment i would had tried to rent another similar one on ocean club.

The map is not the territory.

This is why I admired the jackets-off approach of the 2nd PJ investigation, for in October??? 2007 they did indeed procure full access to the real apartment and did test entry and exit via the window, climbing out with a bundle, and also made similar examination of the sliding doors on the balcony, and I assume did they also examine the door in the hall and its lock?

 

[redplanet]

Which case was this, Redplanet?

It was this horrific 2004 Dartmoor case Scorpiette
Bus driver who murdered teenage passenger jailed for life

 

[redplanet]

... the EVRD gets no credit in that report however IMO he helped to solve the case by identifying the temporary place. Incidentally it was a case where the perp acted opportunistically, temporarily concealed, returned later to move.

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

What is the source of your interest in CB? Did you used to live with him in the same area or maybe close to PDL?

I was only in Algarve once, a single time, with my parents when I was a small child (maybe 10 years old). I do live in Lisbon.

I did told already many time why I'm interested in CB. I will try to clarify.

Take MARTIN NEY as an example.
If you check all of his crimes you might be able to "profile" him at some rate. You can check all of his victims, they are boys of a certain age. If you check the way the victims look like you can "reach" the "interests" of Ney. You can kindo of "guess" what possible victims he would chose.

Now, take the list of all missing children that I talked about during my posts here, can you see some "possible victim of Ney" ? Yes, if you are like me you will say "only René Hasse" meets the profile of Ney.

Yes, I can be wrong, he might random kill other children/adults but it's "likely" ? No it isn't. So from my list the likely crime that he would commit would be René Hasse only so I could for example kind of "exclude him" from for example CAROLA TITZE case without any problem, because it wouldn't meet it's "type".

I was trying to do the same with CB. Problem is that I can't Identify/profile his "type" and all the other cases are "random" and on completly different scenarios; you have missing from beach, from forest, from bedroom/apartment, from street, etc. You have male/female of diferent age and type, you have several factors to consider.

I can't make a "profile" or link because those cases that I did list do have diferences even when some do match on the victim age/gender it will not match on victim "type" and abduction place scenario.

This might be hard to believe to many but you can take my word on this, I DON'T KNOW CB, i WAS NEVER in PDL, I'm not after anything particular about MM,

I'm here because FROM ALL the cases where there might be a CB possible "killing" the MM case apears so far as the one that he might have indeed have done.

In other words I'm writing here because on ALL the other mentioned cases even if CB did take any part of it (killing, whatever) that "link" is NOT STRONG and it's not going to bring him to jail. The only one that I can see that "might" reveal more about CB is the MM one.

I'm not EXCLUDING CB from other crimes, what I'm saying is that the chances are that apart from other Portuguese/PDL crimes under investigation (like rapes) that might end up having charge upon CB the ONLY missing child that FOR NOW hage a GOOD CHANCE that ends up on a charge for CB is MM as BKA "claims" to have strong evidence that CB did the crime and MM is dead on the contrary of the other cases that they are saying that they are re-opening/re-investigating to see (just in case) if CB might be related to.

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

It turns out it's more "easy" if i can "profile" the monster. If I can't it's harder to exclude the monster from specific crimes.

CB possible crimes are "random", so i can't figure out a pattern.

That is all.

 

[Trivento]

It turns out it's more "easy" if i can "profile" the monster. If I can't it's harder to exclude the monster from specific crimes.

CB possible crimes are "random", so i can't figure out a pattern.

That is all.

Maybe CB type is primarily as Mr. Hofmann has said in interviews...that the “vulnerability “ of the victim was most noticeable trait , he can then inflict some sort of cruelty or control over them.
Other than that his known victims would seem to be only females.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I was only in Algarve once, a single time, with my parents when I was a small child (maybe 10 years old). I do live in Lisbon.

I did told already many time why I'm interested in CB. I will try to clarify.

Take MARTIN NEY as an example.
If you check all of his crimes you might be able to "profile" him at some rate. You can check all of his victims, they are boys of a certain age. If you check the way the victims look like you can "reach" the "interests" of Ney. You can kindo of "guess" what possible victims he would chose.

Now, take the list of all missing children that I talked about during my posts here, can you see some "possible victim of Ney" ? Yes, if you are like me you will say "only René Hasse" meets the profile of Ney.

Yes, I can be wrong, he might random kill other children/adults but it's "likely" ? No it isn't. So from my list the likely crime that he would commit would be René Hasse only so I could for example kind of "exclude him" from for example CAROLA TITZE case without any problem, because it wouldn't meet it's "type".

I was trying to do the same with CB. Problem is that I can't Identify/profile his "type" and all the other cases are "random" and on completly different scenarios; you have missing from beach, from forest, from bedroom/apartment, from street, etc. You have male/female of diferent age and type, you have several factors to consider.

I can't make a "profile" or link because those cases that I did list do have diferences even when some do match on the victim age/gender it will not match on victim "type" and abduction place scenario.

This might be hard to believe to many but you can take my word on this, I DON'T KNOW CB, i WAS NEVER in PDL, I'm not after anything particular about MM,

I'm here because FROM ALL the cases where there might be a CB possible "killing" the MM case apears so far as the one that he might have indeed have done.

In other words I'm writing here because on ALL the other mentioned cases even if CB did take any part of it (killing, whatever) that "link" is NOT STRONG and it's not going to bring him to jail. The only one that I can see that "might" reveal more about CB is the MM one.

I'm not EXCLUDING CB from other crimes, what I'm saying is that the chances are that apart from other Portuguese/PDL crimes under investigation (like rapes) that might end up having charge upon CB the ONLY missing child that FOR NOW hage a GOOD CHANCE that ends up on a charge for CB is MM as BKA "claims" to have strong evidence that CB did the crime and MM is dead on the contrary of the other cases that they are saying that they are re-opening/re-investigating to see (just in case) if CB might be related to.

Thanks for your answer!

I would agree in some of your thoughts about CB in relation to MN.

But keep in mind, that MN is a paedo with a preference to boys and maybe in some way to play god, by taking their lives, according to reality and pado-chat-groups.

CB is a peado AND a sadist! It's not just about satisfying sexual needs and playing god. He seems to like torturing the weaker ones, probably because of some kind of trauma in the past.

So, they seem to share their preferences due to minors or playing god. CB's sadistic urges do not automatically refer to the sex, age or ethnical background of the victim.

So you can compare MN and CB in some way, with a small difference in the sex of the victims with pure sexual background. But as far as i know, MN has been far away from being a sadist!

CB fantasized not just about killing, but torturing! And that should make him different, from other known PDL-paedos!

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

I'm using several methods to "investigate" the case(s) that do interest me and those methods include placing myself on the victim place and on the killer place and "imagine" how the crime did happen, vizualizing it.
For example I could go to the exact place where the crime did happen and try to visualize it on my mind, like thinking how the victim would react and the killer would react as well.

For now i'm limited to be here in PT as COVID-19 doesn't allow me to go outside the country to "hunt for clues", at any rate other stuff that I do is to think allot about the victim and figure out if the victim would be a possible target of the suspect or if the suspect would chose another victim.

I will not go intro details because It would reveal some stuff about the methods that I'm using but let's say for now that IF I DO KNOW that a "pedo" did kill a certain type of child (like the ney guy) i can more or less tell or "profile" what type of child he would "choose" as victims.

I can also "link" crimes. Even if i don't have suspect. I can say that for example one type of victim could be targeted bu the same pedo. Of course i might fail. But it's an attempt.

Like even if I DON'T KNOW who took MM if someone does tell me that MM was killed by a pedo I can more or less figure out what type of child the pedo would chose as victim. Sometimes it might not be as simple as matching age/gender.

So I'm here wasting time running in circles because I CAN'T PROFILE CB and I can't reach solid conclusion that does satisfy me as I have reached for example in the case of NEY. I can't find a pattern on CB possible crimes.

Goes without saying that IT DOESN'T have to be a pattern. CB might have commited ONLY ONE and even so he might not be guilty of ANY ONE of those crimes, but for now as BKA is SO CERTAIN that CB did kill MM I'm considering it as a strong possibility.

That's all. Again I would need to know what BKA have of "so strong" to make him guilty but that at the same time is not "that strong" to get him in jail for the MM crime.