Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #22

[redplanet]

Victoria, you are raising valid questions.
I have always been asking myself for what purpose the English (Irish?) dogs were brought in to sniff around (Eddie e.a.).
For what purpose were they brought in in August? (Or am I mixing up some dates?) Were they brought in to detect 4 minute old cadaverine? Detectable by female blow flies, but how about cadaver dogs? Four minute old cadaverine that would have had to remain intact for months?
After the apartment had been let out to other tenants?
Unless MM's remains would have remained in the apartment for all those months......

If the dog(s) would have given reliable alerts, then the next step would for instance have been to lift up the tiles of the flooring and seek for (human) remains underneath. But that didn't happen, did it? Why not?
(Human beings would have probably smelled the presence of a corpse in all those months...)

The use of these dogs was suggested by the NPIA
P.J. POLICE FILES: MARK HARRISON NATIONAL SEARCH ADVISER

 

[SuperdadV8]

IMO CB was perhaps referring to the case in 2004 of JC who was 'fed to pigs', which I'm sure he'd have been aware of through media coverage at the time.

Or maybe referring to JC either....

 

[redplanet]

DBM

 

[redplanet]

No, I have no credible source link since I am merely doing what everybody else in here is doing. Speculating. People have put forth all sorts of scenarios from burglary gone wrong to sexual abuse resulting in accidental death- All without source links! The idea of the handling of a dead dog belonging to LE is a perfect example of how the cadaver scent may have been transferred into the crime scene and onto evidence collected, since that LE did have access to it all and was attempting to go unnoticed at the actual scene within hours of physical contact with the dog. Which in turn 'rules in' but does not 'rule out' any possible sabotaging of scene/evidence. - These ARE the same officers who were charged with and who covered up their attack of JC mother, who was then convicted of murdering her daughter without a shred of evidence. Her body, also, yet to be found! They 'solved' that case by creating a scene and producing 'planted evidence.
Also, you say that Eddie did not alert to the scent of a 'dead dog!. I know they are trained using pigs but do you mean that they give off different alerts re cadaver species. ie: 1 bark for human, 2 for a pig, 3 if it's a dog? I'm not sure that they do.

IMO with the late Eddie, one bark or several barks all indicate, at a cellular level, substances originally from a human source. However it is an interesting question, whether an EVRD has ever alerted to a dog-source?
BTW another poster recently speculated police planted not dog- but human-sourced scent.

 

[Anxala]

"Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick said the force is working "really, really closely" with the German authorities, but does not expect them to share all of their evidence."

What are the reasons for not sharing in theses circumstances? There must be some communication between the authorities.

I'm sure there is some communication but I suspect it's very much on the Germans' terms, rather than the Met's.

Maybe the German investigation has thrown up anomalies in the Met investigation which the Met is resistant to? Hence the lack of meaningful comunication? Just a thought.

 

[Anxala]

The consensus last time we discussed this was that German LE probably want to avoid English LE letting the family know what evidence they hold, from where the information would risk finding its way into the public domain...

It could be that, although that seems a rather callous and somewhat unsettling approach to parents desperate to know what happened to their missing child.

It also kind of suggests that the LE think the parents, if informed of the evidence they hold, might jeopardise their investigation by leaking info to the media. Which is odd in itself since surely it would be in the McCann's interest to make sure nothing jeopardised what actually looks like real progress finally being made as far as finding out what happened to their child.

So that - media leaks - as a reason for the Met/McCanns being kept in the dark is problematic for me.

 

[Anxala]

So what are you suggesting? It would be interesting to know.

All I'm saying (which I've actually said a number of times on here before, this is and always has been my position), in the absence of knowing what HCW knows/says he knows, I find the abduction theory riddled with credibility problems. Until I know what he knows, I remain firmly on the unemotional, objective and sceptical fence.

And it's genuinely not that I'm doubting HCW, it's more that I'm just trying to figure out and reconcile how his conclusion can tally with known facts from the original investigation.

 

[C.greek]

All I'm saying (which I've actually said a number of times on here before, this is and always has been my position), in the absence of knowing what HCW knows/says he knows, I find the abduction theory riddled with credibility problems. Until I know what he knows, I remain firmly on the unemotional, objective and sceptical fence.

And it's genuinely not that I'm doubting HCW, it's more that I'm just trying to figure out and reconcile how his conclusion can tally with known facts from the original investigation.

Well, the only known facts from the original investigation is that a child went missing. There is no other fact about what happened before and after. This is what puzzles me with your scepticism. What do you consider as known facts?

Since HCW has only mentioned that CB is a suspect for murdering MM, I think he is treding carefully with the evidence he has not to accuse CB of abduction yet. And this to my eyes seems a very careful approach.

 

[Dave55]

All I'm saying (which I've actually said a number of times on here before, this is and always has been my position), in the absence of knowing what HCW knows/says he knows, I find the abduction theory riddled with credibility problems. Until I know what he knows, I remain firmly on the unemotional, objective and sceptical fence.

And it's genuinely not that I'm doubting HCW, it's more that I'm just trying to figure out and reconcile how his conclusion can tally with known facts from the original investigation.

What known facts do you have a problem with... I just don't see any problems... How reliable do you think these known facts are

 

[Anxala]

Well, the only known facts from the original investigation is that a child went missing.

Your perspective which, of course, you're entitled to.

But it's absolutely not mine so I think it's best to just agree to disagree, and wait to see what HCW has in store for us in 2021.

 

[Dahoon]

What always comes to mind for me is how many other missing people or criminal acts that maybe could have been solved with this amount of energy. Why is this case so special? Even after reading the thread I still think the suspects are at best scapegoats because they (the police and MSM) can't make anything stick on the real (ETA: I meant main, not real, sorry) suspects in any missing children's case.

 

[C.greek]

Your perspective which, of course, you're entitled to.

But it's absolutely not mine so I think it's best to just agree to disagree, and wait to see what HCW has in store for us in 2021.

But what are these known 'facts' you are referring to?

 

[C.greek]

What always comes to mind for me is how many other missing people or criminal acts that maybe could have been solved with this amount of energy. Why is this case so special? Even after reading the thread I still think the suspects are at best scapegoats because they (the police and MSM) can't make anything stick on the real (ETA: I meant main, not real, sorry) suspects in any missing children's case.

I think one important aspect of this case that has gotten so much money and publicity and energy is that the child went missing while on holidays in a different foreign country. This complicates things a lot.
Also the case of missing Ben in Greece was much much publicised and was coming up at intervals in the news. They haven't managed to solve it unfortunately. And it is not completely comparable as Ben was staying at his grandma's house. The MM case is completely out of the ordinary and the original investigation IMO could have been better.

 

[C.greek]

IMO with the late Eddie, one bark or several barks all indicate, at a cellular level, substances originally from a human source. However it is an interesting question, whether an EVRD has ever alerted to a dog-source?
BTW another poster recently speculated police planted not dog- but human-sourced scent.

I speculated whether unintenionally human-sourced cadaver scent could have been brought in from the police who arrived at the scene, ie through a bag that was placed on a dead body/crime scene before etc.

 

[SuperdadV8]

The investigation is about murder.

If a murder can be proved and sentenced, any kind of abduction gets
subordinate.

I do not think, that the german prosecuters solved any 5A riddle. Because even PJ and OG didn't.....

But the seem to have other clues....

 

[redplanet]

I speculated whether unintenionally human-sourced cadaver scent could have been brought in from the police who arrived at the scene, ie through a bag that was placed on a dead body/crime scene before etc.

Yes and it is a good point you make. However to make it work fully, the hypothetical polluted police bag would need to be put down on the floor behind the east sofa, and put down on the first shelf up in the left wardrobe, contacting the shelf and also contacting some of the clothes on that shelf. Then yes I agree it would explain the two alerts inside the apartment, and also would explain the clothing alerts. IMO.

 

[redplanet]

Is HCW saying it was murder (not manslaughter, not causing accidental death)?

 

[C.greek]

Yes and it is a good point you make. However to make it work fully, the hypothetical polluted police bag would need to be put down on the floor behind the east sofa, and put down on the first shelf up in the left wardrobe, contacting the shelf and also contacting some of the clothes on that shelf. Then yes I agree it would explain the two alerts inside the apartment, and also would explain the clothing alerts. IMO.

The sofa alert was not only Eddie. It was Keela as well

 

[redplanet]

The sofa alert was not only Eddie. It was Keela as well

Yes you are correct. Just saying that if our hypothetical policeman places the hypothetical police-bag temporarily under that clothing on that wardrobe shelf, in one single action the bedroom alert and the clothing alerts are explained.

 

[Okapi]

Going back to my posts when I first joined the MM threads, I speculated if the perp's clothes/shoes/gloves could have held cadever scent. Or a small backpack he may have brought with him. It's a long shot though because it assumes without evidence that CB had encountered/handled another dead human.

Given the spectacular ineptitude/carelessness/corruption of the original police investigation, it is not impossible that the cadever alerts were a result of LE cross contamination. I find that more plausible than the theory that it came from the doctors.

In many ways, though, it is more likely to me that the source for a cadever scent was the child who has not been seen since. DIA as a consequence of a non-familial intruder. A key factor for me is the ambiguity over the timings MM was last seen irrefutably alive.