Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect #31

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  • #101
I just watched this 2 prt series---it was very good, imo. Saw it on HLN.
Part 2 delves into new developments with CB and where things stand now. And I short interview with author pushing the scenario involving him.


How It Really Happened​

Madeline McCann: Part 2​

Season 7 Episode 2​

Hill Harper


DocumentaryCrime
60 mins, Captioned


  • Fri 2 Sep, 17:00 HLN (Ch. 060)

Actor Hill Harper delves deeply into some of the most notorious crimes, mysteries, trials and celebrity tragedies of all time.
 
  • #102
ADMIN NOTE:

This post lands at random.

As previously posted, this thread is dedicated specifically to discussion of the German prisoner CB who has been identified as a suspect in this case. Any hint, insinuation, discussion of the McCann's having involvement in Madeleine's disappearance is off limits in this thread and others.
 
  • #103
The only salient point about the Renault Scenic is that the McCanns hired it 3 weeks after Madeleine vanished and it should, therefore, never have formed a part of the enquiry.

If you look at the schedule of searches Mark Harrison, part of whose job was supposed to have been to determine the schedule of searches, first drew up, you will find he made reference, only, to vehicles owned or driven by Robert Murat.

Then Harrison stood to attention and took orders from Encarnacidio to extend the schedule of searches.


"According to police records, the hire company delivered the Renault to Kate and Gerry McCann on May 27, 2007, to the apartment in Praia da Luz where the family was staying."

I have lost the formatting tools again.

ETA: The other salient point, of course, is why anyone was looking for Madeleine's blood on the ignition key of a vehicle hired 3 weeks after she vanished.
It doesn’t matter anyway because the dogs evidence didn’t prove anything in relation to MM - it was never meant to.

The dogs only locate the scent of blood and/or cadaver. Once samples are located, they can the be tested for DNA to identify who the samples belong to. They can identify this scent many, many years after they were made.

I truly believe that the dogs located blood and cadaverine scent in and on all the items/locations they alerted to. None of the resulting DNA tests proved the samples were from MM. There are many explanations of how blood and cadaverine scent could have found its way into 5A, the scenic, KM’s clothes etc.

The only troubling one for me is cadaverine on Cuddle Cat but even then cross-contamination is highly possible given the sensitivity of the dogs ability to detect these scents.
 
  • #104
It doesn’t matter anyway because the dogs evidence didn’t prove anything in relation to MM - it was never meant to.

The dogs only locate the scent of blood and/or cadaver. Once samples are located, they can the be tested for DNA to identify who the samples belong to. They can identify this scent many, many years after they were made.

I truly believe that the dogs located blood and cadaverine scent in and on all the items/locations they alerted to. None of the resulting DNA tests proved the samples were from MM. There are many explanations of how blood and cadaverine scent could have found its way into 5A, the scenic, KM’s clothes etc.

The only troubling one for me is cadaverine on Cuddle Cat but even then cross-contamination is highly possible given the sensitivity of the dogs ability to detect these scents.
There is just so much wrong with that post.

But let's start with the Renault Scenic. Eddie, actually, did extraordinarily well to detect traces of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the Renault Scenic. He did so twice, the second time, after the key was removed from the Renault Scenic, placed inside a sandbox and buried, for Eddie to alert to a second time, which the dog did.

But they were looking for MADELEINE'S blood.

Why there?

The 'inspection' of the McCanns rented villa?

The elephant in the room is that Madeleine never lived there. Dogs should never have been allowed near the villa for that reason.

Clothing.

None seized until 3 months after the crime. Grime never had, at least a cadaver dog, trained to inspect clothing. Yet the exact-same clothing was sniffed, twice, in different places.

I assume, by the way, that my formatting buttons have been deliberately turned off?
 
  • #105
There is just so much wrong with that post.

But let's start with the Renault Scenic. Eddie, actually, did extraordinarily well to detect traces of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the Renault Scenic. He did so twice, the second time, after the key was removed from the Renault Scenic, placed inside a sandbox and buried, for Eddie to alert to a second time, which the dog did.

But they were looking for MADELEINE'S blood.

Why there?

The 'inspection' of the McCanns rented villa?

The elephant in the room is that Madeleine never lived there. Dogs should never have been allowed near the villa for that reason.

Clothing.

None seized until 3 months after the crime. Grime never had, at least a cadaver dog, trained to inspect clothing. Yet the exact-same clothing was sniffed, twice, in different places.

I assume, by the way, that my formatting buttons have been deliberately turned off?


This is the schedule of searches Mark Harrison first drew up:

"Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


Page 2228 :

Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

Murat's Vehicles.

All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach."

x x x x

More notable for what isn't there than what is.

No reference to vehicles BESIDES those of Robert Murat's, incidentally, unlike the Renault Scenic, humanly inspected before the dogs sniffed them.

No reference to the McCanns' rented villa, unsurprisingly as Madeleine never lived there.

No reference to clothing, unsurprisingly, in part because Grime never had, at least a cadaver dog trained to inspect clothing

In part because no clothing was seized until 3 months after the crime

In part because uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are inadmissible as 'evidence' in English courts

In part because a minute trace of Madeleine's blood on any clothing would not have been remotely incriminating.
 
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  • #106
With the recent talk of marks on CB’s body .. is interesting to note details in this article from 2020 …


“ Given his repeated offending, the file provides a vivid physical description of Brueckner who has a pockmarked face, pierced ears, a five-inch scar on his lower back, an eight-inch scar on his right arm, birthmarks all over his body and hands’, including chewed fingernails. It even details a distinctive scar on his groin. “
 
  • #107
With the recent talk of marks on CB’s body .. is interesting to note details in this article from 2020 …


“ Given his repeated offending, the file provides a vivid physical description of Brueckner who has a pockmarked face, pierced ears, a five-inch scar on his lower back, an eight-inch scar on his right arm, birthmarks all over his body and hands’, including chewed fingernails. It even details a distinctive scar on his groin. “
Very interesting.

Is Brueckner going to be allowed to wriggle off the hook of conviction for the rape of Hazel Behan because she might not have identified the scars that pot his body in exactly the right places?
 
  • #108
Thank you for that, the Mail obviously picked up on that and added a bit, but what it seems to be saying imo is that FF has been told his client will not face charges over the Behan case and by default the case concerning the American woman is called into question because FF says that Wolters said both crimes were done by the same person.
 
  • #109
Very interesting.

Is Brueckner going to be allowed to wriggle off the hook of conviction for the rape of Hazel Behan because she might not have identified the scars that pot his body in exactly the right places?
Or he didn't do it, strangely from what as been reported no mention of any of the features highlighted in the piece from Trivento in which some how the Mail on Sunday acquired a supposed criminal file.
 
  • #110
Very interesting.

Is Brueckner going to be allowed to wriggle off the hook of conviction for the rape of Hazel Behan because she might not have identified the scars that pot his body in exactly the right places?

... yes I guess HB wouldn't have been taking precise coordinates and measurements in such a situation...but may have seen something of relevance of course.

As mentioned in article below her attacker had on some clothing which could explain why other markings may not have been seen... ( if was CB )


“ …there was a man dressed in all black, wearing a leotard and a black leather mask with a machete in his hand.”
 
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  • #111
It doesn’t matter anyway because the dogs evidence didn’t prove anything in relation to MM - it was never meant to.

The dogs only locate the scent of blood and/or cadaver. Once samples are located, they can the be tested for DNA to identify who the samples belong to. They can identify this scent many, many years after they were made.

I truly believe that the dogs located blood and cadaverine scent in and on all the items/locations they alerted to. None of the resulting DNA tests proved the samples were from MM. There are many explanations of how blood and cadaverine scent could have found its way into 5A, the scenic, KM’s clothes etc.

The only troubling one for me is cadaverine on Cuddle Cat but even then cross-contamination is highly possible given the sensitivity of the dogs ability to detect these scents.
 
  • #112
i have done alot of reserach into the cadaver alerts and come to the conclusion that people have been misled into how accurate they are. First...there was no 200 cases and no 100% record. grime now describes Eddie as an unreliable cadaver dog because he was not trained on human remains. it was a new idea from harrison to use the alerts as intelligence to help an investigation. .. it was harrissons idea and Grime helped him. in Luz Grime was starting a business to use the dogs for this purpose..i think he hoped to build a successful business out of it. Harrison said before the searches the alert may indicate where a body has been. After the searches he did acomplete U turn and said no inference coud be drawn from the alerts... i think he realised what a complete farce these alerts were.

according to an oficial report eddie alerted to a coconut in Jersey. Grime then placed the coconut in adifferent location...and once again Eddie alerted.. what does that say about Grime and the alerts. Everything Ive claimed is backed by official evidence
 
  • #113
Very interesting.

Is Brueckner going to be allowed to wriggle off the hook of conviction for the rape of Hazel Behan because she might not have identified the scars that pot his body in exactly the right places?
If Bruekner avoids a new rape conviction it will be because of inadequate evidence.
 
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  • #114
This is the schedule of searches Mark Harrison first drew up:

"Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


Page 2228 :

Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

Murat's Vehicles.

All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach."

x x x x

More notable for what isn't there than what is.

No reference to vehicles BESIDES those of Robert Murat's, incidentally, unlike the Renault Scenic, humanly inspected before the dogs sniffed them.

No reference to the McCanns' rented villa, unsurprisingly as Madeleine never lived there.

No reference to clothing, unsurprisingly, in part because Grime never had, at least a cadaver dog trained to inspect clothing

In part because no clothing was seized until 3 months after the crime

In part because uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are inadmissible as 'evidence' in English courts

In part because a minute trace of Madeleine's blood on any clothing would not have been remotely incriminating.
Here’s my point: the dogs didn’t prove anything, the areas they alerted to didn’t conclusively provide MM’s DNA. They just alerted to scents of blood and cadaverine. There could be many explanations for this.

The only question in relation to the dogs and this forum is: does any of their evidence strengthen or weaken the case against CB?
 
  • #115
... yes I guess HB wouldn't have been taking precise coordinates and measurements in such a situation...but may have seen something of relevance of course.

As mentioned in article below her attacker had on some clothing which could explain why other markings may not have been seen... ( if was CB )


“ …there was a man dressed in all black, wearing a leotard and a black leather mask with a machete in his hand.”
I am pretty sure that the description of the attacker of the ten-year-old girl on the beach (he was naked with a backpack) also described someone with lots of birthmarks.
 
  • #116
Very interesting.

Is Brueckner going to be allowed to wriggle off the hook of conviction for the rape of Hazel Behan because she might not have identified the scars that pot his body in exactly the right places?



From the link:

Although he wore a mask that covered his whole head, the victim could see he had blond eyebrows and ‘piercing blue eyes’. She also recalled a distinctive mark on the top of his right thigh, which she described as ‘a pull in the tights, a birthmark or a tattoo’.

If a pull in the tights is what she saw, that would account for why there is, now, no trace of it.

That would not be a bodily feature.

You'll gather, my buttons now restored, thank you.
 
  • #117
i have done alot of reserach into the cadaver alerts and come to the conclusion that people have been misled into how accurate they are. First...there was no 200 cases and no 100% record. grime now describes Eddie as an unreliable cadaver dog because he was not trained on human remains. it was a new idea from harrison to use the alerts as intelligence to help an investigation. .. it was harrissons idea and Grime helped him. in Luz Grime was starting a business to use the dogs for this purpose..i think he hoped to build a successful business out of it. Harrison said before the searches the alert may indicate where a body has been. After the searches he did acomplete U turn and said no inference coud be drawn from the alerts... i think he realised what a complete farce these alerts were.

according to an oficial report eddie alerted to a coconut in Jersey. Grime then placed the coconut in adifferent location...and once again Eddie alerted.. what does that say about Grime and the alerts. Everything Ive claimed is backed by official evidence
Whether they alerted to blood and death or coconuts, I don’t think it matters. What they did alert to was inconclusive anyway.

I base my opinion on what I’ve read about the dogs capabilities, the footage and the fact that when they alerted samples were found. I do think they alerted to human blood and cadaverine and I understand if you and other people have a different view.
 
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  • #118
Here’s my point: the dogs didn’t prove anything, the areas they alerted to didn’t conclusively provide MM’s DNA. They just alerted to scents of blood and cadaverine. There could be many explanations for this.

The only question in relation to the dogs and this forum is: does any of their evidence strengthen or weaken the case against CB?
It would have been an up-hill struggle finding Madeleine's dna in places she never lived in or went near, such as the Renault Scenic, or the McCanns' rented villa ...

ETA: Obviously Madeleine's dna would have been on any clothing of hers in the villa, but that would be irrelevant to the enquiry.
 
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  • #119

From the link:

Although he wore a mask that covered his whole head, the victim could see he had blond eyebrows and ‘piercing blue eyes’. She also recalled a distinctive mark on the top of his right thigh, which she described as ‘a pull in the tights, a birthmark or a tattoo’.

If a pull in the tights is what she saw, that would account for why there is, now, no trace of it.

That would not be a bodily feature.

You'll gather, my buttons now restored, thank you.
It could have been just that simple, that she recognized something like that. There are hundreds of possibilites on the web, even containing a simple cross for a halloween costume. It could explain the uncertainty between buttock or thigh....

sexy-damen-nylon-strumpfhose-mit-muster-schwarz.jpgDownload.jpeg.jpg
 
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  • #120
It could have been simple that she recognized something like that. There are hundreds of possibilites on the web, even containing a simple cross for a halloween costume. It could explain the uncertainty between buttock or thigh....

View attachment 363634View attachment 363635

Yes!

And only the puritanical in spirit or the plain malevolent would expect a person, being subjected to a harrowing ordeal to remember everything that happened with absolute clarity and pinpoint accuracy.

There are plenty of carefully constructed experiments that illustrate graphically just how fallible the human memory is in recollection of actual events, even non-stressful ones in experimental conditions.
 
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