Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

[mrjitty]

Please try to follow the argument and not confuse it. If you follow this exchange of posts, you originally stated tat there were “victims of five seperate crimes awaiting justice”.

As two of these victims are unidentified and we have no understanding of whether they even believe a crime has been committed, how can you say they are awaiting justice?

Beyond this, the only evidence there is that any offence occurred in these two cases comes from witness statements of two convicted criminals.

Currently, there are no outstanding charges against CB - they have been thrown out. If the charges go to court then we will see if CB is convicted for these two rape cases. In any event, we can be certain that your original statement that victims in five seperate cases are awaiting justice is incorrect, two of the victims haven’t even asked for justice.

BIB

Actually one, because for instance, only one described the rape of the elderly american, and only one described the 'italian woman'. We know that the elderly american testimony was correct because it is corroborated, but with the 'italian woman' did the guy get mixed up? did he actually see something else? or did he fill in details about what was the same rape because he didn't really remember?

Apparently both describe the teenager - though different sequences

This is why it could get difficult IMO

 

[mrjitty]

No.2 is incorrect, Denis. That alleged older woman/farmhouse victim didn't make the cut. Here's the correct list of charges just so we know where we are. No.2 and No.3 are the unknown unidentified victims for whom there's no assault date:

1. Hazel Behan (20 @ time/now 39) (in her home, June 16, 2004, Praia de Rocha ;

2. 14 year old teenager (assaulted/hit the naked girl with a whip. Said to have brutally forced the girl to have oral sex. The accused also videotaped this act). Took place between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006 on the Praia da Luz, Algarve coast, Portugal.

3. An elderly woman 70-80 yrs old (tied up & raped the victim in her holiday apt. He then hit the victim several times with a whip. The accused is said to have recorded the entire event with a video camera). Took place around the same time (between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006) on the Praia de Luz, Algarve coast, Portugal.

4. 10 year old German girl (Joana.E) (wearing only shoes & otherwise naked. He grabbed the child's wrist & began to perform masturbation movements on his naked penis). On Salema (Zalema) beach, near Praia de Luz, Portugal, April 7, 2007).

5. 11 year old Portuguese girl (pulled down his trousers & underpants & made masturbation movements on his naked penis in order to sexually arouse himself, until the frightened girl ran to her father for help. The suspect was arrested on the spot by the Portuguese police). Exposed himself in playpark, São Bartolomeu de Messines, June 11, 2017).

Thanks Anxala!

Somewhere there is a german FAZ paywall article that goes into all this testimony for the rape trial.

I think the defence will suggest maybe only the first witness actually saw the tape and told the second witness about it, who then recalls the details incorrectly, or that the second witness doesn't remember properly.

Could be quite hard to unpick

 

[Consider Dudley]

Please try to follow the argument and not confuse it. If you follow this exchange of posts, you originally stated tat there were “victims of five seperate crimes awaiting justice”.

As two of these victims are unidentified and we have no understanding of whether they even believe a crime has been committed, how can you say they are awaiting justice?

Beyond this, the only evidence there is that any offence occurred in these two cases comes from witness statements of two convicted criminals.

Currently, there are no outstanding charges against CB - they have been thrown out. If the charges go to court then we will see if CB is convicted for these two rape cases. In any event, we can be certain that your original statement that victims in five seperate cases are awaiting justice is incorrect, two of the victims haven’t even asked for justice.

Sometimes victims of crime are unable to ask for justice, it doesn’t mean they are not victims.

 

[Anxala]

Thanks Anxala!

Somewhere there is a german FAZ paywall article that goes into all this testimony for the rape trial.

I think the defence will suggest maybe only the first witness actually saw the tape and told the second witness about it, who then recalls the details incorrectly, or that the second witness doesn't remember properly.

Could be quite hard to unpick

^ Certainly a possibility.

Also, with regard to the elderly woman (age est approx 70-80yrs) rape case, if she was, let's say for agument's sake, mid 70s at the time, and it, again for argument's sake, occurred in 2003, she would be in her mid 90s now. Or have possibly since passed away.

 

[Okapi]

Okay, easiest way to explain is to list the alleged crimes:

1. Rape of a young German woman at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006;
2. Rape of an older Italian woman (although there are some reports this woman was British), again at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006 - this and the prior crime are the ones witnessed by HB and MS on the camcorder;
3. Rape of Hazel B at Praia da Rocha at her apartment in 2004;
4. Salema beach attack of the ten year-old girl in 2007;
5. Public exposure at the playground in 2017.

IMO, if there is physical evidence linking him to the Hazel B case (it’s been “leaked”/reported that they have a partial palm print) this is a strong case.

The beach and playground crimes are, while repulsive, comparatively less serious offences.

The rapes in 1, and 2, you would imagine would be very difficult to obtain a conviction - there is no video and no known victims.

Given the no doubt exhaustive investigation, I am sure the BKA was hopeful for its agenda to find more crimes to link CB to.

ETA: we have no idea how old the woman was in 1 and we don’t have any way of validating it other than the statements of HB and MS.

Thanks for clarifying Denis. It occurs to me that it’s possible the older woman has passed away by now.

ETA: As Anxala also noted.

 

[Okapi]

Sometimes victims of crime are unable to ask for justice, it doesn’t mean they are not victims.

I’m still struck especially by the unidentified teenager

 

[Davieson]

I’m still struck especially by the unidentified teenager

Someone mentioned age of consent earlier. 14 in Portugal.

Consent for sexual activity with an adult

fra.europa.eu

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Sometimes victims of crime are unable to ask for justice, it doesn’t mean they are not victims.

If you follow the sequence of posts you’ll see that I’ve been very clear about that. I haven’t said that they are not victims, simply that we don’t know that they are because they haven’t come forward.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

No.2 is incorrect, Denis. That alleged older woman/farmhouse victim didn't make the cut for some unknown reason. Here's the correct list of charges just so we know where we are. No.2 and No.3 are the unknown unidentified victims for whom there's no assault date or physical evidence:

1. Hazel Behan (20 @ time/now 39) in her home, June 16, 2004, Praia de Rocha.

2. 14 year old teenager (assaulted/hit the naked girl with a whip. Said to have brutally forced the girl to have oral sex. The accused also videotaped this act). Took place between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006 on the Praia da Luz, Algarve coast, Portugal.

3. An elderly woman 70-80 yrs old (tied up & raped the victim in her holiday apt. He then hit the victim several times with a whip. The accused is said to have recorded the entire event with a video camera). Took place around the same time (between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006) on the Praia de Luz, Algarve coast, Portugal.

4. 10 year old German girl (Joana.E) (wearing only shoes & otherwise naked. He grabbed the child's wrist & began to perform masturbation movements on his naked penis). On Salema (Zalema) beach, near Praia de Luz, Portugal, April 7, 2007).

5. 11 year old Portuguese girl (pulled down his trousers & underpants & made masturbation movements on his naked penis in order to sexually arouse himself, until the frightened girl ran to her father for help. The suspect was arrested on the spot by the Portuguese police). Exposed himself in playpark, São Bartolomeu de Messines, June 11, 2017).

Okay, I stand corrected. All along we have discussed the older Italian woman at the farmhouse.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

BIB

Actually one, because for instance, only one described the rape of the elderly american, and only one described the 'italian woman'. We know that the elderly american testimony was correct because it is corroborated, but with the 'italian woman' did the guy get mixed up? did he actually see something else? or did he fill in details about what was the same rape because he didn't really remember?

Apparently both describe the teenager - though different sequences

This is why it could get difficult IMO

I am thinking now then that the 70-80 year old woman in her holiday apartment could be the one with the British accent.

 

[Anxala]

Okay, I stand corrected. All along we have discussed the older Italian woman at the farmhouse.

Thanks for the correction.

No probs.

But for general info, this charge info was corrected on the last thread. And @Niner 's update with all the accompanying charge details is on P.1 of this thread.

Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

A 43-year-old German prisoner who travelled around Portugal in a camper van is now the focus of Scotland Yard's investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. New suspect identified in Madeleine McCann case List of case players by initials and their relationship to this discussion...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Pixie Child]

I don't think prior convictions will be taken into account.

MM's case is very much a stand alone one in which the evidence, should there be enough and of sufficient quality to lay charges will be exclusive to her case. My opinion

HB is possibly the main witness in the MM case so his character (incl prior convictions) will be attacked in both the MM case and the unidentified rapes.

If BKA is prosecuting on the basis of tapes alone (rather than complaint) that suggests they have the recording.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

HB is possibly the main witness in the MM case so his character (incl prior convictions) will be attacked in both the MM case and the unidentified rapes.

If BKA is prosecuting on the basis of tapes alone (rather than complaint) that suggests they have the recording.

For the young German woman in particular, how would that be possible when HB and MS claim to have thrown the camera in the lake?

 

[Anxala]

I’m still struck especially by the unidentified teenager

I'm a little more struck by the witnesses' account of the elderly woman in her 70s/80s who was so brutally attacked in her holiday apt. If this is true, it must have been an absolutely terrifying experience for her. She must have suffered some trauma afterwards. Would she not have told anyone about it, a family member, a friend, a neighbour? Who in turn would have reported it to the police?

I accept of course that many assault/rape cases sadly go unreported for many complex and justifiable reasons but still, bearing in mind her age, I find it a bit of a puzzle.

 

[frank-cole]

Yes, but he did say 'because in cases where children were kidnapped, they made a sexual crime then killed.' which is the relevant bit in the context of the 'could not have survived' Chinese rumours post I responded to - ie. HCW's reason for believing that MM is dead.

What he's denying is not relevant here.

Yes, but he did say 'because in cases where children were kidnapped, they made a sexual crime then killed.' which is the relevant bit in the context of the 'could not have survived' Chinese rumours post I responded to - ie. HCW's reason for believing that MM is dead.

What he's denying is not relevant here.

 

[Okapi]

Someone mentioned age of consent earlier. 14 in Portugal.

Consent for sexual activity with an adult

fra.europa.eu

Wow. Well that explains the curious phrasing in the reports that she was a girl “of at least 14.” Not that it sits any better with me, both her age, and the description of force.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I'm a little more struck by the witnesses' account of the elderly woman in her 70s/80s who was so brutally attacked in her holiday apt. If this is true, it must have been an absolutely terrifying experience for her. She must have suffered some trauma afterwards. Would she not have told anyone about it, a family member, a friend, a neighbour? Who in turn would have reported it to the police?

I accept of course that many rape cases sadly go unreported for many complex reasons but still, bearing in mind her age, I find it a bit of a puzzle.

Help me understand something then. Are the older Italian lady and the 70-80 year old woman in her apt the same crime but MS and HB have differing recollections or, is the latter a crime that has been uncovered separately from these two witnesses?

 

[Okapi]

I'm a little more struck by the witnesses' account of the elderly woman in her 70s/80s who was so brutally attacked in her holiday apt. If this is true, it must have been an absolutely terrifying experience for her. She must have suffered some trauma afterwards. Would she not have told anyone about it, a family member, a friend, a neighbour? Who in turn would have reported it to the police?

I accept of course that many assault/rape cases sadly go unreported for many complex reasons but still, bearing in mind her age, I find it a bit of a puzzle.

Oh it’s no less dreadful Anxala. Attacked in her own home. As a regular visitor to the area, she may well have decided it was pointless reporting it locally. She may have blamed herself in some way. All speculation.

 

[Pixie Child]

For the young German woman in particular, how would that be possible when HB and MS claim to have thrown the camera in the lake?

CB may have uploaded it to the Dark Web.

To charge, I think BKA would need to identify the girl, the age or the fact that it was non-consensual.

Unless the tape makes their lack of consent undeniable.

But I imagine they both came forward to BKA - part of the reason for CB’s identity to be publicised.

 

[frank-cole]

Yes, but he did say 'because in cases where children were kidnapped, they made a sexual crime then killed.' which is the relevant bit in the context of the 'could not have survived' Chinese rumours post I responded to - ie. HCW's reason for believing that MM is dead.

What he's denying is not relevant here.

I wasn’t referencing the comment you’ve switched to.

You attached & quoted the mirror article - I just wanted to share that HCW has denied making several of those comments. Sometimes the context can be lost when the tabloids quote things that HCW didn’t actually say. I think I’ve seen the quotes from that article far more than most of the others, would have been handy if The Mirror made the appropriate corrections.