Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

[Okapi]

It wouldn't necessarily be evidence of a crime. Could be evidence of consensual rough sex.

As the circumstances of the second two rape charges match those of HazelB and the elderly American woman’s, I highly doubt there could be anything consensual about these encounters, before or after the whips appeared.

 

[Davieson]

As the circumstances of the second two rape charges match those of HazelB and the elderly American woman’s, I highly doubt there could be anything consensual about these encounters, before or after the whips appeared.

That's something for a Judge to determine.

 

[Okapi]

That's something for a Judge to determine.

True.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

So if I am understanding you correctly there are no crimes or victims of crime until a judge or jury agrees. Well I‘m sorry but I disagree most strenuously. Madeleine McCann is most obviously a victim of a crime yet we still don’t know exactly what happened to her or who was responsible. how could you possibly argue otherwise?

Finally, something we can agree on: we don’t know what happened to MM.

Similarly, we don’t know what happened with the alleged rapes. We don’t even know if they were rapes. We don’t know who the victims were. We don’t know if they consider themselves victims. We don’t know what evidence there is. This being the case why is it difficult for you to accept me questioning if a crime has been committed?

<modsnip>

 

[Denis R Tandib]

This is not a strategy I am aware of ever being used successfully in the past - is it one often deployed, claiming certainty that a suspect is guilty and them subsequently confessing before even being charged?

it seems plausible given the prosecutor’s inability to charge in relation to MM. perhaps they have a weaker case now than they once thought.

 

[RichardKimble]

So if I am understanding you correctly there are no crimes or victims of crime until a judge or jury agrees. Well I‘m sorry but I disagree most strenuously. Madeleine McCann is most obviously a victim of a crime yet we still don’t know exactly what happened to her or who was responsible. how could you possibly argue otherwise?

Under cover cop John Fordham was knifed to death by Kenneth Noye, Noye admitted killing Fordham, he claimed self defence at his trial, Noye was found not guilty of murder, so what crime was committed against Fordham ?

 

[Consider Dudley]

Finally, something we can agree on: we don’t know what happened to MM.

Similarly, we don’t know what happened with the alleged rapes. We don’t even know if they were rapes. We don’t know who the victims were. We don’t know if they consider themselves victims. We don’t know what evidence there is. This being the case why is it difficult for you to accept me questioning if a crime has been committed?

<modsnip>

“we” don’t matter, what matters is the opinion of the police who believe that crimes have been committed and that they think they know who committed them, therefore it follows that they believe there are victims of crime. <modsnip> according to the police investigation there are 5 victims. <modsnip>

 

[Consider Dudley]

Under cover cop John Fordham was knifed to death by Kenneth Noye, Noye admitted killing Fordham, he claimed self defence at his trial, Noye was found not guilty of murder, so what crime was committed against Fordham ?

Is this a trick question? Are you claiming John Fordham was not a victim?

 

[RichardKimble]

Is this a trick question? Are you claiming John Fordham was not a victim?

of what though ?

 

[Consider Dudley]

of what though ?

Well in my opinion, and given what we now know of Kenneth Noye I would say cold blooded murder. What would you call it?

 

[mrjitty]

We won't know anything further about the rape cases unless they make it to trial and we get court reporting.

Hopefully we get an updates on the search or something else happens over the summer!

 

[Pixie Child]

We won't know anything further about the rape cases unless they make it to trial and we get court reporting.

Hopefully we get an updates on the search or something else happens over the summer!

I hope they search the Foral house and we hear more about what was going on in the house & village. They might come back to NF & her casino friends. Hope they monitored her comms.

CB had friends in Alentejo/Santa Clara dam. There have been arrests for human trafficking for agricultural labour in that area recently so will be interested to see if he had contacts in the Morocco or Balkan Mafias.

 

[Lyall0814]

This is not a strategy I am aware of ever being used successfully in the past - is it one often deployed, claiming certainty that a suspect is guilty and them subsequently confessing before even being charged?

Sure you're aware of it, plea bargaining happens everywhere.

 

[Mex]

Maybe similar videos but prior to CB going into jail, he didn’t clear out his house so I’m doubtful he made and kept copies of these videos. Just MO.

I have seen it said that CB spent a lot of time on the internet. The fact that he had 8,000 still images and videos of abuse some of which he appeared in would seem to substantiate his obsession.

He may have posted some of these images on the dark web and they may have been recovered from there.

 

[frank-cole]

I am arguing that we should allow the legal process to run its course before we decide if there are established crimes, victims and convicted criminals. I have often wondered why people - like you - would do argue otherwise.

Are they really all victims? There has been no trial. There may be more evidence, there may not be. Right now, you only have the word of a man proven to assault women and smuggle people to base your opinion on - that’s not strong enough for me.

Is it not possible that the charges for unidentified victims are hopeful rather than well supported by compelling evidence? One thing I am certain about is that the BKA and HCW thought they would find more crimes during their six-year investigation of CB than they have. Is it possible these alleged crimes are a sign of an investigation in trouble?

All the opinion of some random on the internet who doesn’t like the thought of people be found guilty before they’ve been proven to be

I am arguing that we should allow the legal process to run its course before we decide if there are established crimes, victims and convicted criminals. I have often wondered why people - like you - would do argue otherwise.

Are they really all victims? There has been no trial. There may be more evidence, there may not be. Right now, you only have the word of a man proven to assault women and smuggle people to base your opinion on - that’s not strong enough for me.

Is it not possible that the charges for unidentified victims are hopeful rather than well supported by compelling evidence? One thing I am certain about is that the BKA and HCW thought they would find more crimes during their six-year investigation of CB than they have. Is it possible these alleged crimes are a sign of an investigation in trouble?

All the opinion of some random on the internet who doesn’t like the thought of people be found guilty before they’ve been proven to be.

I understand your point. IMO they are certainly all victims. Helge B is a proven credible witness. The BKA find him credible, the judges & lay judges in the German courtroom found him credible (DM case) & his testimony has also led to concrete evidence in the MM case. I trust the BKA’s ability to assess the credibility of a witness, as well as I do the German court system. That’s why I disagree with quick lines about Helge B being used as a way to discredit the German court system, all of the BKA’s 6 cases & all of the victims. German prosecutors only charge if the prospect of conviction outweigh the prospect of acquittal, therefore IMO there must be very good reason they were confident to charge. We’re only privy to the open-source information. The file (relating to the 5 charges) were extensive and HCW even noted it would take the defence a while to go through them. IMO that strongly suggests that the evidence is detailed & credible & that it wasn’t a massive amount of words & 100’s of pages relating to just 1 witness testimony.

IMO the cases are all in a very strong position. HCW said there’d be other sex crimes & he was right, they’ve completed investigations for 5.

IMO there will now be a prolonged period of slow balling but it will inevitably get to court & regardless of whatever tactics used beforehand, IMO both sides will have to face the reality that there’ll be no avoiding a court date. Sometimes I reflect on just how long this has taken and how I’d never expected it to. It can be frustrating but IMO they’ve dropped no cases for very good reason, if justice will take time then so be it. All the victims deserve their cases to be heard.

 

[Tekno]

I understand your point. IMO they are certainly all victims. Helge B is a proven credible witness. The BKA find him credible, the judges & lay judges in the German courtroom found him credible (DM case) & his testimony has also led to concrete evidence in the MM case. I trust the BKA’s ability to assess the credibility of a witness, as well as I do the German court system. That’s why I disagree with quick lines about Helge B being used as a way to discredit the German court system, all of the BKA’s 6 cases & all of the victims. German prosecutors only charge if the prospect of conviction outweigh the prospect of acquittal, therefore IMO there must be very good reason they were confident to charge. We’re only privy to the open-source information. The file (relating to the 5 charges) were extensive and HCW even noted it would take the defence a while to go through them. IMO that strongly suggests that the evidence is detailed & credible & that it wasn’t a massive amount of words & 100’s of pages relating to just 1 witness testimony.

IMO the cases are all in a very strong position. HCW said there’d be other sex crimes & he was right, they’ve completed investigations for 5.

IMO there will now be a prolonged period of slow balling but it will inevitably get to court & regardless of whatever tactics used beforehand, IMO both sides will have to face the reality that there’ll be no avoiding a court date. Sometimes I reflect on just how long this has taken and how I’d never expected it to. It can be frustrating but IMO they’ve dropped no cases for very good reason, if justice will take time then so be it. All the victims deserve their cases to be heard.

I agree, Frank. Just because HB was a petty criminal, doesn’t mean his testimony is not trustworthy. He most certainly knows what CB was up to pre- and post-disappearance. I think of the quote by several, ‘alliances change over time’. In my opinion, this is exactly what happened here.

 

[Lyall0814]

And yet the other witness now says HB "would sell his mother for money". No need for anyone else to say anything.

 

[RichardKimble]

We won't know anything further about the rape cases unless they make it to trial and we get court reporting.

Hopefully we get an updates on the search or something else happens over the summer!

Do they shut down for August like other parts of Europe, not policing obviously but the judiciary ? Still we've got the ashes, Wimbledon, open golf, lots to be going on with.

 

[RichardKimble]

DBM double post.

 

[frank-cole]

And yet the other witness now says HB "would sell his mother for money". No need for anyone else to say anything.

That’s why IMO corroboration is key. If a testimony is corroborated with evidence then it’s valid, if it isn’t it isn’t. There have been many thousands of sightings, tip-offs & leads. Out of all of those thousands of individual pieces of information, Helge B’s testimony was one reason there’s an active murder investigation in process. IMO if his testimony wasn’t assessed thoroughly, deemed credible & corroborated with evidence it would have been just another one of the thousands of others.

IMO Helge B is exactly the type of person somebody like CB would have been familiar with, so it’s not surprising that the credible information came from that type of a character. If a virtuous law abiding citizen came forward, as thousands have, IMO the likelihood of them having very relevant information would be much less than the likes of Helge. The type of individual IMO who commits this sort of crime will be far more likely to confide in, or boast to other nasty criminals, like Helge. JMO