Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

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  • #901
JC reckons on an Autumn trial for the 5 charges, has jurisdiction been sorted?

Unsure at this stage , HB quoted as saying she expects to hear when the court date will be heard in the next few weeks. I expect the Autumn date to be something her lawyer has given as a guideline. A
step in the right direction though so hopefully there will be some clarification in the near future.
 
  • #902
How very, very sad that yet another young woman was blamed by PJ for being raped.
its despicable. I listened to the radio interview Hazel did. She such a brave and inspirational woman. i wasn’t surprised at all by the conduct of the PJ but even so, it was so frustrating to listen to the awful way they’d treated her. IMO it’s not surprising that there was so much unsolved sexual crime from that region.
 
  • #903
JC reckons on an Autumn trial for the 5 charges, has jurisdiction been sorted?
Although everybody hopes HB gets her day in court soon, we’ve heard these lines about when it’ll be so many times. Sounds like guesswork & IMO there’s no clear indication of when it could be.
IMO regardless of jurisdiction the events will be the same, the cases will go to trial. IMO plenty more slow balling & technicality arguments before it gets there. IMO neither side can delay the inevitable forever, regardless of how they try to run thing.
 
  • #904
Although everybody hopes HB gets her day in court soon, we’ve heard these lines about when it’ll be so many times. Sounds like guesswork & IMO there’s no clear indication of when it could be.
IMO regardless of jurisdiction the events will be the same, the cases will go to trial. IMO plenty more slow balling & technicality arguments before it gets there. IMO neither side can delay the inevitable forever, regardless of how they try to run thing.
JC does seem to have an history of predicting seasons in which trials are to take place without success.
 
  • #905
JC does seem to have an history of predicting seasons in which trials are to take place without success.
Didn't we all though.
Seemed as plain as the nose on the face.
a) man commits crime
b) crime is investigated
c) charges made (in CB's case ~ for five unrelated crimes)
So with everything in place for the charges to be heard in court a procedural motion threw a spanner into the works.

It is sad for those such as HB whose long wait for her case to be heard has been thrown off kilter not really as a result of anything relating to these crimes which happened long ago in Portugal. But as a direct result of a crime which also happened long ago and also happened in Portugal and for which the prime suspect hasn't even been indicted yet.
 
  • #906
Didn't we all though.
Seemed as plain as the nose on the face.
a) man commits crime
b) crime is investigated
c) charges made (in CB's case ~ for five unrelated crimes)
So with everything in place for the charges to be heard in court a procedural motion threw a spanner into the works.

It is sad for those such as HB whose long wait for her case to be heard has been thrown off kilter not really as a result of anything relating to these crimes which happened long ago in Portugal. But as a direct result of a crime which also happened long ago and also happened in Portugal and for which the prime suspect hasn't even been indicted yet.
procedural motion
The filthy disgust of this, and complex justice in delaying processes. Years, decades, money...generations of this. Shameful degradation.
 
  • #907
procedural motion
The filthy disgust of this, and complex justice in delaying processes. Years, decades, money...generations of this. Shameful degradation.
It is what it is even if I really don't understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think the box factory could have been considered fit for human habitation let alone as a permanent residence for a supposedly penniless drifter who seemed to be a property magnate on the side while in Germany.

The only bonus I can see is that the hold up is giving more tine to the MM investigation if that is needed.


FF is quoted as saying in a 'big boy dunnit and ran away' fashon,
"This is not an attempt to take a case away from the Braunschweig prosecutor's office. It is simply my job to work towards compliance with procedural law for the accused. That's all I'm doing here. According to my examinations (which were confirmed by the Braunschweig Regional Court), the Braunschweig public prosecutor's office is simply not responsible for the jurisdiction here."
 
  • #908
Not sure. Here, in Portugal, curiously, little is reported compared to other periods from 2020. Although the assistance with the searches, IMO, apparently, it seems that there is some resignation.

From what HCW has said in relation to the investigation may continue even after CB is released in 2026, also not sure if that could eventually be a kind of "undercover pressure" towards the other charges to "help" keep him in.
You might be right but I've been wondering why they've charged him with crimes in Portugal in which the victims can't be identified, but they haven't charged with him with similar crimes in Germany that - it has been said - can be likely determined to involve him from the digital material found in the box factory. Maybe they might have to if the MM investigation can't achieve what they want it to.
 
  • #909
You might be right but I've been wondering why they've charged him with crimes in Portugal in which the victims can't be identified, but they haven't charged with him with similar crimes in Germany that - it has been said - can be likely determined to involve him from the digital material found in the box factory. Maybe they might have to if the MM investigation can't achieve what they want it to.
Yes, maybe...
Eventually, the focus has been more on crimes in Portugal, looking to MO, "inherences", etc but not sure.
 
  • #910
It is what it is even if I really don't understand the reasoning behind it. I don't think the box factory could have been considered fit for human habitation let alone as a permanent residence for a supposedly penniless drifter who seemed to be a property magnate on the side while in Germany.

The only bonus I can see is that the hold up is giving more tine to the MM investigation if that is needed.


FF is quoted as saying in a 'big boy dunnit and ran away' fashon,
"This is not an attempt to take a case away from the Braunschweig prosecutor's office. It is simply my job to work towards compliance with procedural law for the accused. That's all I'm doing here. According to my examinations (which were confirmed by the Braunschweig Regional Court), the Braunschweig public prosecutor's office is simply not responsible for the jurisdiction here."
IMO, in these circumstances FF would have tried on this jurisdictional technicality regardless of what jurisdiction this started in. There’s probably an argument that CB either lived or didn’t live in several areas. If this started in Magdeburg I think he’d have come up with the same argument the prosecution are using to appeal the move, to get it moved out of Magdeburg

He could have played this card 2 years ago but it didn’t happen until after he’d received the evidence files. Perhaps the evidence is too strong to move on with this case swiftly.

IMO FF will continue to aim for technicalities & there may be more road bumps. If Braunschweig win their appeal I genuinely wouldn’t be surprised if FF then started requesting things akin to the PH levels of the water in the box factory’s pipes, the amount of corrosion on the pipes, every pipe serial number & the qualifications of the plumber who fitted them.

FF seems great at technicalities but IMO he won’t be able to do much to challenge the evidence, just like he didn’t in DM’s appeal.

It’ll get there (to trial) I can’t imagine how devastating this process is for the victims, it’s already frustrating enough for us Websleuthers!
 
  • #911
IMO, in these circumstances FF would have tried on this jurisdictional technicality regardless of what jurisdiction this started in. There’s probably an argument that CB either lived or didn’t live in several areas. If this started in Magdeburg I think he’d have come up with the same argument the prosecution are using to appeal the move, to get it moved out of Magdeburg

He could have played this card 2 years ago but it didn’t happen until after he’d received the evidence files. Perhaps the evidence is too strong to move on with this case swiftly.

IMO FF will continue to aim for technicalities & there may be more road bumps. If Braunschweig win their appeal I genuinely wouldn’t be surprised if FF then started requesting things akin to the PH levels of the water in the box factory’s pipes, the amount of corrosion on the pipes, every pipe serial number & the qualifications of the plumber who fitted them.

FF seems great at technicalities but IMO he won’t be able to do much to challenge the evidence, just like he didn’t in DM’s appeal.

It’ll get there (to trial) I can’t imagine how devastating this process is for the victims, it’s already frustrating enough for us Websleuthers!
As you refer IMO FF will try to stick to and explore technicalities but I doubt if he can even be "creative" enough to escape or refute when the evidences come (...if come).
 
  • #912
You might be right but I've been wondering why they've charged him with crimes in Portugal in which the victims can't be identified, but they haven't charged with him with similar crimes in Germany that - it has been said - can be likely determined to involve him from the digital material found in the box factory. Maybe they might have to if the MM investigation can't achieve what they want it to.

I’m intrigued regarding the two rape charges but from the little I know of German legal procedures I am presuming all is in order with them for the simple reason that FF didn’t challenge them. Or if he did his challenge wasn’t successful, because they are on the charge sheet.

If there were other alleged crimes featuring CB which were investigated, perhaps the reason we haven’t heard about them is threefold,
a) he could be innocent
b) quite simply there may not be sufficient evidence in the digital material to lay charges
c) unlikely, but the digital material might form part of the evidence which could compromise other investigations if revealed at this time

My money is on them lacking the evidence to proceed.

Also I know that no investigation process is infallible. But Portuguese crimes stand out for being taken so far and going no further (or sometimes going too far). The DM rape was dropped as was the HB rape as were the other two charges levelled against CB which might be heard ... soon? On that basis I can't envisage the two anonymous rapes proceeding to charges without evidence of some sort.
My opinion
 
  • #913
I thought charged came before the defence saw the evidence. Then a sort of pre-trial judge determined whether the evidence was strong enough for a trial to take place, taking into account the defence comments.
 
  • #914
I thought charged came before the defence saw the evidence. Then a sort of pre-trial judge determined whether the evidence was strong enough for a trial to take place, taking into account the defence comments.
Not saying this is a definitive version but it gives an insight imo.

4. PROCEDURE OF THE INSPECTION OF FILES​

At the latest after the investigations have been completed or the charges have been brought, the same information shall be made available to the defence counsel in relation to the criminal proceedings as is available to the public prosecutor’s office and the court.

The defendant may not be denied access to the accused’s hearing minutes and to such judicial investigative acts in which the defender has been or should have been allowed to be present, as well as to the expert opinions of experts, in any situation of the proceedings (§ 147 Paragraph 3 of the Code of Criminal Procedure).

Often, file inspection or inspection of certain parts of files is only possible at the office of the investigating officer or the public prosecutor’s office. Depending on the case constellation (and relationship of trust), however, the files are also sent to the defender’s office for inspection and for making copies. Exceptions apply if the files contain information or content that may not be disseminated, such as child 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 or information about imminent arrests.

As a rule, a defender is entitled (and also obliged) to provide his client with copies of the files or electronic scans on a data carrier.


 
  • #915
As you refer IMO FF will try to stick to and explore technicalities but I doubt if he can even be "creative" enough to escape or refute when the evidences come (...if come)
Agree. IMO several of the defence’s strategies are tacit admissions of CB’s guilt.
 
  • #916
Not saying this is a definitive version but it gives an insight imo.

4. PROCEDURE OF THE INSPECTION OF FILES​

At the latest after the investigations have been completed or the charges have been brought, the same information shall be made available to the defence counsel in relation to the criminal proceedings as is available to the public prosecutor’s office and the court.

The defendant may not be denied access to the accused’s hearing minutes and to such judicial investigative acts in which the defender has been or should have been allowed to be present, as well as to the expert opinions of experts, in any situation of the proceedings (§ 147 Paragraph 3 of the Code of Criminal Procedure).

Often, file inspection or inspection of certain parts of files is only possible at the office of the investigating officer or the public prosecutor’s office. Depending on the case constellation (and relationship of trust), however, the files are also sent to the defender’s office for inspection and for making copies. Exceptions apply if the files contain information or content that may not be disseminated, such as child *advertiser censored* or information about imminent arrests.

As a rule, a defender is entitled (and also obliged) to provide his client with copies of the files or electronic scans on a data carrier.


“The 2nd Criminal Chamber has affirmed a strong suspicion for the five accused offences” - I believe this is the second affirmation from the court that IMO verifies the strength of the cases. IMO it seems unusual that a court would note that they too have “strong suspicion” CB comitted all 5 crimes, before a trial. Perhaps that also means the evidence in the 2 additional rape cases is more incriminating than we hypothesise. The surprising comments seem like another differential between the German system & the UK one. IMO it also invalidates the claim that HCW is breaking any rules by being so open about CB’s guilt and IMO it adds credence to the argument that jurisdictional changes don’t reflect the validity of the evidence, nor will a jurisdictional move alleviate any suspicion. I think that’s a good sign of the legal proceedings to come. JMO
 

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  • #917
“The 2nd Criminal Chamber has affirmed a strong suspicion for the five accused offences” - I believe this is the second affirmation from the court that IMO verifies the strength of the cases. IMO it seems unusual that a court would note that they too have “strong suspicion” CB comitted all 5 crimes, before a trial. Perhaps that also means the evidence in the 2 additional rape cases is more incriminating than we hypothesise. The surprising comments seem like another differential between the German system & the UK one. IMO it also invalidates the claim that HCW is breaking any rules by being so open about CB’s guilt and IMO it adds credence to the argument that jurisdictional changes don’t reflect the validity of the evidence, nor will a jurisdictional move alleviate any suspicion. I think that’s a good sign of the legal proceedings to come. JMO
Could be it's just legalise speak confirming the charges have been read and agreed the charges were laid in October according to which Niner posted on page one of this thread with the article you posting dates November.
 
  • #918
Could be it's just legalise speak confirming the charges have been read and agreed the charges were laid in October according to which Niner posted on page one of this thread with the article you posting dates November.

and then it was "Provisionally passed the case over to the region of Magdeburg on 4/22/23.

So that is where we stand. No news from Magdeburg - or did I miss that?
TIA!
 
  • #919
and then it was "Provisionally passed the case over to the region of Magdeburg on 4/22/23.

So that is where we stand. No news from Magdeburg - or did I miss that?
TIA!
Nothing that is known as yet.
 
  • #920
Nothing that is known as yet.

Thanks! Sometimes I have to skip a few pages when I get behind in reading here! :) Just wanted to make sure I haven't missed it.
 
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