Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #37

[Mex]

We shall see, Mex. I wouldn't be putting more than 50p on it happening though (Jmo)

I don't understand the negativity permeating what must surely be the last shot at settling for once and all the MM so called mystery. To the extent that there is tacit support for the possibility that five serious crimes of a sexual nature may not be scrutinised in court, although not directly linked to MM but deserving of a hearing in their own right.

 

[Lyall0814]

I don't understand the negativity permeating what must surely be the last shot at settling for once and all the MM so called mystery. To the extent that there is tacit support for the possibility that five serious crimes of a sexual nature may not be scrutinised in court, although not directly linked to MM but deserving of a hearing in their own right.

It's a thread about MM. Those of us who don't think he had any connection to her don't have any difficulty separating whatever else that man may have done from the theory (which is still all it is) he was involved in MM's disappearance. It's others who can't - or consciously won't - separate the two things, not us.

 

[Consider Dudley]

So you don’t think it’s okay for HCW to claim CB committed murder in the media then? I don’t.

What is the main difference between a prosecutor naming a suspect in the murder of a child and announcing that in their opinion the suspect committed the crime? Genuine question.

 

[Mex]

It's a thread about MM. Those of us who don't think he had any connection to her don't have any difficulty separating whatever else that man may have done from the theory (which is still all it is) he was involved in MM's disappearance. It's others who can't - or consciously won't - separate the two things, not us.

Exactly! and what I don't understand is why there should be a "them" and "us" attitude to what is an intense evidence led police investigation. Which after years of investigation (sixteen+ at the last count) has resulted in the identification of a career criminal being classified by police investigators as prime suspect in a heinous felony.

There is no theory here.
There is a police investigation.
There is evidence.
There is a prime suspect.
There is a missing child.
All the ingredients are there as is normal in any police investigation I have ever heard of.

Why on earth is this one considered to be different?

 

[Consider Dudley]

I said that a prosecutor proclaiming a suspect guilty before trial is a breach of the suspect's human rights.

He expressed an opinion not a legal judgement.

 

[Consider Dudley]

First things first I imagine. ECHR considerations will have to wait until after any trial and appeals.

That would be foolish considering how long ECHR judgements take. Why not file it now and save their client the possibility of additional years in prison if they have such a strong case against the prosecutor ?

 

[Consider Dudley]

The thread seems to be turning into an episode of Brass Eye.

(far, far better to think no such video could ever exist because - as it becoming more and more apparent imo with every passing day - the theory of the German authorities is just wrong)

What evidence have you been privy to that the German theory is wrong?

 

[Lyall0814]

Not sure what Wittgenstein would make of your logic there, Mex. There is a missing child therefore he must be guilty? I know the first rule of prosecutors all over the world is make sure everyone in the courtroom is thinking 'if the accused didn't do it, who did?' but that's how we get miscarriages of justice. Some of us are on guard.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Not sure what Wittgenstein would make of your logic there, Mex. There is a missing child therefore he must be guilty? I know the first rule of prosecutors all over the world is make sure everyone in the courtroom is thinking 'if the accused didn't do it, who did?' but that's how we get miscarriages of justice. Some of us are on guard.

I’ve read Mex’s post and I’m pretty sure she didn’t say what you said she said.

 

[Lyall0814]

I’ve read Mex’s post and I’m pretty sure she didn’t say what you said she said.

True perhaps but then Mex wasn't responding to what I'd actually written either. I had Wittgenstein in my head because some people are frequently talking about the existence of evidence like photos or videos, and their argument seems to be along the lines of: the investigators must have some evidence like that or they wouldn't be so confident. That's not good logic imo

 

[Tekno]

Possible, does CP have convictions for the possession of CSA material?

Not that I know of.

 

[Lyall0814]

What evidence have you been privy to that the German theory is wrong?

I thought it was likely wrong the day they first made the appeal. If they think this then real evidence must exist, I thought. We found out very quickly it didn't. It was still just the same media speculation and invention we'd seen previously.

 

[Consider Dudley]

I thought it was likely wrong the day they first made the appeal. If they think this then real evidence must exist, I thought. We found out very quickly it didn't. It was still just the same media speculation and invention we'd seen previously.

When was it established they have no evidence, or is this just your opinion?

 

[Consider Dudley]

True perhaps but then Mex wasn't responding to what I'd actually written either. I had Wittgenstein in my head because some people are frequently talking about the existence of evidence like photos or videos, and their argument seems to be along the lines of: the investigators must have some evidence like that or they wouldn't be so confident. That's not good logic imo

Neither is it good logic to assume that because they have chosen not to share everything they have with the public that it’s because it doesn’t exist.

 

[Lyall0814]

When was it established they have no evidence, or is this just your opinion?

They have some evidence clearly, alleged confessions etc. Not enough to convince me though. That's all I can say. It's all just my opinion.

 

[Mex]

Not sure what Wittgenstein would make of your logic there, Mex. There is a missing child therefore he must be guilty? I know the first rule of prosecutors all over the world is make sure everyone in the courtroom is thinking 'if the accused didn't do it, who did?' but that's how we get miscarriages of justice. Some of us are on guard.

To even run the risk of suffering a miscarriage of justice one must first experience justice in action in the form of a trial conducted in accordance with the law.

Philosophically speaking, if you give what you have said some unbiased consideration, you might come to consider a different option. In that your emphatic certainty that CB will suffer prejudicial treatment should he be required to face trial as indicted is in itself flying in the face of justice.

 

[Mex]

I’ve read Mex’s post and I’m pretty sure she didn’t say what you said she said.

Thank you, Dudley. 't is such a common occurrence I mainly just answer anyway probably having already made my point in the first post

 

[Mex]

True perhaps but then Mex wasn't responding to what I'd actually written either. I had Wittgenstein in my head because some people are frequently talking about the existence of evidence like photos or videos, and their argument seems to be along the lines of: the investigators must have some evidence like that or they wouldn't be so confident. That's not good logic imo

Thank you for that acknowledgement but suffice to say I think your understanding of Wittgenstein differs a tad from mine, but that is for a different thread and a different discussion.

In the meantime back at the ranch.
How would you propose an investigation into a heinous crime against a child is conducted if not by gathering evidence?

 

[Mex]

I thought it was likely wrong the day they first made the appeal. If they think this then real evidence must exist, I thought. We found out very quickly it didn't. It was still just the same media speculation and invention we'd seen previously.

If the investigators have not been building an evidence based case, what is it you think they've been doing instead?

 

[Lyall0814]

To even run the risk of suffering a miscarriage of justice one must first experience justice in action in the form of a trial conducted in accordance with the law.

Philosophically speaking, if you give what you have said some unbiased consideration, you might come to consider a different option. In that your emphatic certainty that CB will suffer prejudicial treatment should he be required to face trial as indicted is in itself flying in the face of justice.

Well what does "the MM so called mystery" mean if it doesn't mean you've already decided he's guilty (re: MM)?