Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[Mex]

For me it is more than frustration

I simply can't countenance a prosecutor accusing someone of murder, saying they have the evidence to bring charges, then 3 years later, they didn't bring them.

I get few people care in this particular case because the accused is a horrifying sex offender, but it strikes me this precedent can be wildly misused. Especially so that law enforcement can simply accuse people of crimes based on secret evidence, then not charge them.

If you think my concerns are too abstract, please see the Wirecard case where German Financial prosecutors effectively accused 2 FT journalists of corruption, based on false accusations from a fraudster, despite having done no investigation to verify the veracity of the complaint.

This is why we never place trust in prosecutors merely saying "yes I have all the evidence which I am keeping secret'. We require open justice, and charges are laid in court, not in the media.

Braunschweig are correctly under pressure to justify their public claims, in open court. The idea we shouldn't require this is foreign to me.

As far as taking the five indicted cases to court is concerned, Braunschweig are doing their level best to bring those cases to be heard before judges.

A long time ago in 2008 the Portuguese Attorney General seeing the danger, admonished at archiving that the MM case should not be treated as a story in a book. How prescient was that?
My opinion

 

[mrjitty]

Was it yourself who mentioned Dostoyevsky the other day? The original investigation does seem a little bit like one from one of his books. Good call whoever it was.

Here's where the misunderstandings arise though. Folks will think we're criticising the efforts that brought the other five cases to court, when we're not. It's perfectly possible for competent, and very competent, investigative work to have been carried out elsewhere simultaneously with the original investigation turning out to be a tunnel-visioned mess. Some of us thought that it likely was way back in 06/20 of course.

right - ordinary police work could have linked the HaB case.

They could also have done a public appeal based around the conviction they had. It's the accusation of murder based on secret evidence part which is controversial.

 

[Mex]

The role of the investigation should be to gather all the evidence and let the story emerge, not to come up with the story and then go looking for whatever evidence might fit.

I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. I'm sure investigators too would like to operate without scrutiny as might some judges.

However there is often a two way exchange required in the process. Sometimes the police require to issue public appeals and the public require to know why they are asking and about who.
My opinion

 

[RichardKimble]

Was it yourself who mentioned Dostoyevsky the other day? The original investigation does seem a little bit like one from one of his books. Good call whoever it was.

Here's where the misunderstandings arise though. Folks will think we're criticising the efforts that brought the other five cases to court, when we're not. It's perfectly possible for competent, and very competent, investigative work to have been carried out elsewhere simultaneously with the original investigation turning out to be a tunnel-visioned mess. Some of us thought that it likely was way back in 06/20 of course.

Not guilty on the Dostoyevsky.

 

[Davieson]

I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. I'm sure investigators too would like to operate without scrutiny as might some judges.

However there is often a two way exchange required in the process. Sometimes the police require to issue public appeals and the public require to know why they are asking and about who.
My opinion

Yes, but all that really needed to be said in 2020 was that the information was being sought in connection with the disappearance of MM.

 

[Mex]

Yes, but all that really needed to be said in 2020 was that the information was being sought in connection with the disappearance of MM.

Don't you think that what you opine smacks just a little of the police state operating in secrecy behind closed doors?

But when I come to think about it, D - what you describe is exactly what the situation was circa 2019.

When due to circumstances beyond the control of police investigators the www stepped in and broke the story of who was the 'patsy' suspected and of what in the MM case.
Once the Genie was out of the bottle etc
My opinion

 

[misty48]

Yes, but all that really needed to be said in 2020 was that the information was being sought in connection with the disappearance of MM.

It wouldn't take a genius to work out why BKA were appealing for information about a suspect, his vehicles and telephone numbers when Germany had become involved in a case seemingly outside their jurisdiction.

 

[Okapi]

I’m just going to remind us all that we had a pandemic smack bang in the opening months of 2020, which certainly impacted the investigation. It certainly wrote off normal life for the best part of two years.

 

[Davieson]

It wouldn't take a genius to work out why BKA were appealing for information about a suspect, his vehicles and telephone numbers when Germany had become involved in a case seemingly outside their jurisdiction.

But there was no need to mention details of why he was under suspicion.

 

[Davieson]

Don't you think that what you opine smacks just a little of the police state operating in secrecy behind closed doors?

But when I come to think about it, D - what you describe is exactly what the situation was circa 2019.

When due to circumstances beyond the control of police investigators the www stepped in and broke the story of who was the 'patsy' suspected and of what in the MM case.
Once the Genie was out of the bottle etc
My opinion

Police normally work in secrecy and only involve the public when they need some information.

 

[Mex]

It wouldn't take a genius to work out why BKA were appealing for information about a suspect, his vehicles and telephone numbers when Germany had become involved in a case seemingly outside their jurisdiction.

Actually I could see the force of that if the jurisdiction argument was taking place between two nation states - Germany v Portugal.

But the argument concerns two districts in Germany - Germany v Germany.

Firmly agree that the defendant's right to a fair trial must be respected. But surely there should also be just a teeny wee spot available within that for the rights of those who appear on the charge sheets as those who suffered injury, also to be respected.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

But there was no need to mention details of why he was under suspicion.

Initially they had no say in that once the www became judge and jury in 2019.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

Police normally work in secrecy and only involve the public when they need some information.

Could not agree more.

But do you think the MM investigation ever enjoyed that protocol from first to last?

 

[mrjitty]

It wouldn't take a genius to work out why BKA were appealing for information about a suspect, his vehicles and telephone numbers when Germany had become involved in a case seemingly outside their jurisdiction.

right - in practice this happens in the UK a lot

But there is still a significant difference between police having a suspect, and police saying "person A did a murder and we can prove it" but not arresting or charging

There is generally a balance here - e.g when a suspect is detained for questioning, obviously that does create a cloud of suspicion - but also there is immediately judicial oversight of that. And in the UK, the media will tend not to name the person in that situation

 

[misty48]

But there was no need to mention details of why he was under suspicion.

Why not? Interpol do exactly that on their online Red Notice list.

 

[Mex]

right - in practice this happens in the UK a lot

But there is still a significant difference between police having a suspect, and police saying "person A did a murder and we can prove it" but not arresting or charging

There is generally a balance here - e.g when a suspect is detained for questioning, obviously that does create a cloud of suspicion - but also there is immediately judicial oversight of that. And in the UK, the media will tend not to name the person in that situation

Matters sub judice​

25.74

Cases in which proceedings are active in the United Kingdom courts, including courts martial, coroners' courts and fatal accident inquiries, may not be referred to in any motion, debate, question or supplementary question. In criminal matters, proceedings are active when a charge has been brought or a summons to appear has been issued or, in Scotland, a warrant to cite has been granted, until the proceedings are concluded by verdict and sentence or discontinuance or, in cases dealt with by courts martial, after the conclusion of the mandatory post-trial review. In civil matters, proceedings are active when arrangements for the hearing, such as setting down a case for trial, have been made, until the proceedings are ended by judgment or discontinuance. Appellate proceedings (whether criminal or civil) are active from the time when they are commenced by application for leave to appeal or by notice of appeal until ended by judgment or discontinuance.

https://erskinemay.parliament.uk/section/5176/matters-sub-judice/

Germany will have its own rules for when a case is sub-judice which don't necessarily mirror those of the UK.

 

[misty48]

right - in practice this happens in the UK a lot

But there is still a significant difference between police having a suspect, and police saying "person A did a murder and we can prove it" but not arresting or charging

There is generally a balance here - e.g when a suspect is detained for questioning, obviously that does create a cloud of suspicion - but also there is immediately judicial oversight of that. And in the UK, the media will tend not to name the person in that situation

I'm struggling to find the difference between how Portugal has treated the McCanns and how BKA has treated CB - but they're both EU countries with inquisitorial systems rather than UK with its adversarial law. Perhaps we should be thankful that German law, unlike Portuguese law, permits such appeals, especially international ones. MOO.

 

[Mex]

Why not? Interpol do exactly that on their online Red Notice list.

Thanks Misty

That would appear to be information worth bearing in mind

Snip
A Red Notice is a request to law enforcement worldwide to locate and provisionally arrest a person pending extradition, surrender, or similar legal action. It is based on an arrest warrant or court order issued by the judicial authorities in the requesting country. Member countries apply their own laws in deciding whether to arrest a person.

It contains two main types of information:

• Information to identify the wanted person, such as their name, date of birth, nationality, hair and eye colour, photographs and fingerprints if available.
• Information related to the crime they are wanted for, which can typically be murder, rape, child abuse or armed robbery.

Red Notices are published by INTERPOL at the request of a member country, and must comply with INTERPOL’s Constitution and Rules.

About Red Notices

Criminals can flee to another country to try to evade justice. A Red Notice alerts police worldwide about internationally wanted fugitives.

www.interpol.int

 

[frank-cole]

Could not agree more.

But do you think the MM investigation ever enjoyed that protocol from first to last?

Agree. If we took the idea that CB is being treated badly by the statements & the press, IMO we’d have to multiply that idea by 1000’s to even remotely reach the level of treatment the McCann’s faced & continue to face.

To note - I have zero sympathy for CB & I don’t think he’s been treated badly. The grieving family on the other hand, have had to experience years of pain which massively eclipses any hurt feelings CB has.

 

[Mex]

Agree. If we took the idea that CB is being treated badly by the statements & the press, IMO we’d have to multiply that idea by 1000’s to even remotely reach the level of treatment the McCann’s faced & continue to face.

To note - I have zero sympathy for CB & I don’t think he’s been treated badly. The grieving family on the other hand, have had to experience years of pain which massively eclipses any hurt feelings CB has.

I think in effect that CB is being given an extraordinary easy ride by the press and social media. Whereas I cannot say the same for HCW who seems to be the current whipping boy.
My opinion