Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[Mex]

Only in the context of a crime against humanity. You'll see a prosecution there against a Syrian national for a crime committed during the war there. He is not a german national, and the crime had no connection to germany. That is the point of the creation of universal jurisdiction where jurisdiction would not exist for crimes against humanity.




Seeing CB was not involved in crimes against humanity, and is in fact a german national, this has no relevance.

You seem to be getting mixed up between whether Germany has jurisdiction in the case (yes) and which german federal state has jurisdiction domestically (at issue).

I'm not too sure you or anyone else posting here is qualified to determine exactly what crimes CB may have committed and what crimes he may not during his long and varied career. I'm not too sure even CB would be able to assist with that now that he doesn't have access to his video library for cross checking.

His actions have all the attributes of a terrorist though and his crimes of rape and torture certainly fit that definition perfectly. Although not on the charge sheet he parallels with what constitutes terrorism in the are unquestionable as the woman he degraded and whose life was changed as a result stated -

Snip
... she was grabbed from behind, dragged up several stairs to her bedroom and tied up with a rope and raped.

She was also beaten with a metal, flexible object.

‘I felt that he enjoyed torturing me,’ she told the investigators.

The ordeal lasted more than 15 minutes and the widow suffered a broken jaw and injuries to her shoulder.

The victim, who was 86 at the time of the trial, was unable to travel to Germany to give evidence. But an investigator visited her at home in the US when she told him how the attack still haunted her.

‘After that she couldn’t sleep, couldn’t turn off the lights at night and was afraid,’ she said.

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[Mex]

Quite. And there is simply no need to make this argument. The german courts already have jurisdiction over CB as a german national.

Posters are getting mixed up between international and domestic jurisdiction.

Posters are well able to differentiate between the two while discussing the parallels particularly in relation to the jurisdiction of the courts.

 

[Lyall0814]

I thought the objection was to him saying that they were convinced CB murdered Madeleine - if HCW's bosses thought that was beyond the pale and a breach of the judicial code then I'm surprised that he is still be allowed to act as spokesman for the investigation and not been booted off the case altogether.

He's being punished by keeping him on it (... maybe)

 

[Mex]

I suspect he just got overexcited in that BBC quote about "if you knew what we knew"

When quoting it is generally advisable not to paraphrase or cherry pick. I think "if you knew what we knew" is tabloid speak. The full quote which makes a subtle difference is
Snip
Mr Wolters said: "If you knew the evidence we had you would come to the same conclusion as I do but I can't give you details because we don't want the accused to know what we have on him - these are tactical considerations."
The six-month investigation has yielded fresh evidence of other alleged crimes.

Madeleine McCann: Public 'would reach same conclusion' on suspect

Prosecutor says if public "knew the evidence we had" they would think Madeleine McCann was killed.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[mrjitty]

When quoting it is generally advisable not to paraphrase or cherry pick. I think "if you knew what we knew" is tabloid speak. The full quote which makes a subtle difference is
Snip
Mr Wolters said: "If you knew the evidence we had you would come to the same conclusion as I do but I can't give you details because we don't want the accused to know what we have on him - these are tactical considerations."
The six-month investigation has yielded fresh evidence of other alleged crimes.

Madeleine McCann: Public 'would reach same conclusion' on suspect

Prosecutor says if public "knew the evidence we had" they would think Madeleine McCann was killed.

www.bbc.co.uk

I already quoted/linked it myself upthread in the discussion with Dudley at post #602 - that is why i referred to it via shorthand

 

[Consider Dudley]

He's being punished by keeping him on it (... maybe)

I don't think that's a very credible explanation.

 

[Lyall0814]

Quite. And there is simply no need to make this argument. The german courts already have jurisdiction over CB as a german national.

Posters are getting mixed up between international and domestic jurisdiction.

Tuesday's "Met to use counter-terrorism tactics against worst male predators" headlines might have inspired posters to start using the t word. Imo though the German police are probably already way ahead of the British in using these tactics.

 

[Lyall0814]

I don't think that's a very credible explanation.

Twas just an attempt at humour

 

[Consider Dudley]

Twas just an attempt at humour

Very amusing one it was too, well done!

 

[Mex]

I already quoted/linked it myself upthread in the discussion with Dudley at post #602 - that is why i referred to it via shorthand

I appreciate that but I also appreciate it is not what HCW actually said and the nuances detract from the sum and substance of the evidence which he was discussing into a personal slight on the chief prosecutor.

Albeit that he was just telling the BBC how little he was allowed to tell us.

 

[Okapi]

I don’t think HCW is outside his lane, despite the furore among the tabloids and their minions over the investigation lag. AFAIU, a German prosecutor is strictly bound to be an objective, neutral actor in carrying out a criminal investigation. In that respect, he is regarded as having comparable authority, standing and impartiality as a judge.

A prosecutor has to find incriminating evidence against the defendant, but equally he has to establish that there is no evidence that exonerates the suspect. He has to address both sides of the coin before he can conclude the pre-trial investigation and evaluate if there is a case or not.

HCW may have insufficient evidence to charge. OTOH, he may not be able to rule CB out as a suspect in the MM disappearance. Or both. That’s when the ambiguity of his public statements starts to make sense to me, particularly when saying something such as ‘we have found nothing … to make us think we've got the wrong suspect”

My own thoughts.

 

[Lyall0814]

I don’t think HCW is outside his lane, despite the furore among the tabloids and their minions over the investigation lag. AFAIU, a German prosecutor is strictly bound to be an objective, neutral actor in carrying out a criminal investigation. In that respect, he is regarded as having comparable authority, standing and impartiality as a judge.

A prosecutor has to find incriminating evidence against the defendant, but equally he has to establish that there is no evidence that exonerates the suspect. He has to address both sides of the coin before he can conclude the pre-trial investigation and evaluate if there is a case or not.

HCW may have insufficient evidence to charge. OTOH, he may not be able to rule CB out as a suspect in the MM disappearance. Or both. That’s when the ambiguity of his public statements starts to make sense to me, particularly when saying something such as ‘we have found nothing … to make us think we've got the wrong suspect”

My own thoughts.

Furore? Where? All I've seen is a couple of Bild blokes who dared to perhaps be slightly sceptical.

 

[Okapi]

Furore? Where? All I've seen is a couple of Bild blokes who dared to perhaps be slightly sceptical.

I think it’s contagious Lyal ;-)

 

[Consider Dudley]

Furore? Where? All I've seen is a couple of Bild blokes who dared to perhaps be slightly sceptical.

If that's true then why are the Germans so apparently disinterested in such an alleged travesty of justice (not to mention an enormous waste of time, resources and money) - rhetorical question, so no need to volunteer a reason, even one of your comical ones ;-)

 

[Mex]

I don’t think HCW is outside his lane, despite the furore among the tabloids and their minions over the investigation lag. AFAIU, a German prosecutor is strictly bound to be an objective, neutral actor in carrying out a criminal investigation. In that respect, he is regarded as having comparable authority, standing and impartiality as a judge.

A prosecutor has to find incriminating evidence against the defendant, but equally he has to establish that there is no evidence that exonerates the suspect. He has to address both sides of the coin before he can conclude the pre-trial investigation and evaluate if there is a case or not.

HCW may have insufficient evidence to charge. OTOH, he may not be able to rule CB out as a suspect in the MM disappearance. Or both. That’s when the ambiguity of his public statements starts to make sense to me, particularly when saying something such as ‘we have found nothing … to make us think we've got the wrong suspect”

My own thoughts.

An excellent summation which explains exactly why FF has made no complaint on his client's behalf. Precisely because there is nothing to complain about regarding the prosecutor's conduct which is well within the set legal boundaries.

Tabloid owners, editors and journalists have a role to play (and a livelihood to earn) by keeping us informed but when there is nothing much to report because the police are keeping schtum it isn't wise to place reliance on the headlines or journalistic opinion. Or to place too much trust in them.
My opinion

 

[SuperdadV8]

This conversation about a possible suspect in the disappearance of MM slowly became to a discussion of human rights of a possible suspect and went far away of thoughts and findings, that may take the case closer to it's solition.

What a pity, that this strategy of some people in here seems to be successful!

 

[Anxala]

Furore? Where? All I've seen is a couple of Bild blokes who dared to perhaps be slightly sceptical.

There was a bit of criticism in the UK press earlier this year at the lack of progress, a bit of 'sh*it or get off the pot' type of thing. It came from a detective (or retired detective, maybe) and I think he was just expressing the collective and entirely understandable frustration and concern felt by the many that are following this case, that it seemed to have come to a complete standstill and effectively put on the back burner.

I actually feel a bit sorry for HCW here. While I don't believe CB will ever be charged in relation to MM, I do, nevertheless, believe that HCW has put his heart and soul into this investigation. I believe he's sincere in what he believes about CB (that he's best kept behind bars) and it's no small achievement to have a judge give the go-ahead to the 5 charges pending, most particularly the Hazel Behan one. And it's got to be really frustrating for him that all his and his team's hard, investigative work over the last how many years in putting these charges together now has to be handed over to a new jurisdiction/new prosecution team who may not have the same 'passion' for these charges against CB as he does.

Because, in the scheme of things, the MM assocation is the only reason these 5 charges are actually on our radar. Were she not, only the Hazel Behan charge would likely be generating media attention outside of Germany, and even that would be low key and confined pretty much to Irish press.

 

[frank-cole]

I was under the impression (perhaps erroneously) that CB and his lawyers viewed his solitary confinement as another breach of his human rights, a situation which is apparently causing him huge suffering.

When discussing somebody like CB it’s incredibly challenging to even comprehend or entertain any idea that somehow his rights have been violated. There seems to be an obvious correlation between case theory - thoughts on HCW & then whether or not one is concerned about his rights.

IMO it’s very unlikely that HCW & his team will have violated CB’s rights. This isn’t their first case, nor will it be the first time they’ve made serious accusations before charging. They can’t be held responsible for investigative journalism & typical tabloid reporting. CB’s feelings may be hurt & he may be out of marmalade & jam, but IMO the ECHR won’t feature at all in the conclusions of this case. FF would have been all over it if there was a case to put forward.

My opinion

 

[frank-cole]

I don’t think HCW is outside his lane, despite the furore among the tabloids and their minions over the investigation lag. AFAIU, a German prosecutor is strictly bound to be an objective, neutral actor in carrying out a criminal investigation. In that respect, he is regarded as having comparable authority, standing and impartiality as a judge.

A prosecutor has to find incriminating evidence against the defendant, but equally he has to establish that there is no evidence that exonerates the suspect. He has to address both sides of the coin before he can conclude the pre-trial investigation and evaluate if there is a case or not.

HCW may have insufficient evidence to charge. OTOH, he may not be able to rule CB out as a suspect in the MM disappearance. Or both. That’s when the ambiguity of his public statements starts to make sense to me, particularly when saying something such as ‘we have found nothing … to make us think we've got the wrong suspect”

My own thoughts.

I agree & I think your point highlights their very rigid & structured system. If the cases are to be moved I think the same standard, process & pathway will have to apply.

There’s a fanciful argument that a new prosecutorial team would either be more or less convinced & more or less motivated by the cases. It creates an interesting albeit rather fictional carryon but IMO the reality will be much less dramatic & the transition will be smooth & consistent.

IMO he’s been consistent about the strength of their evidence but many of the joining pieces & burning questions can’t be answered, nor can he take the risk of being pulled around by loaded questions. If anything, especially in the court of public opinion, his statements have done little to settle the minds of those of us who follow it, but hopefully his words have made their way into the minds of the very people they hope come forward

 

[Mex]

There was a bit of criticism in the UK press earlier this year at the lack of progress, a bit of 'sh*it or get off the pot' type of thing. It came from a detective (or retired detective, maybe) and I think he was just expressing the collective and entirely understandable frustration and concern felt by the many that are following this case, that it seemed to have come to a complete standstill and effectively put on the back burner.

I actually feel a bit sorry for HCW here. While I don't believe CB will ever be charged in relation to MM, I do, nevertheless, believe that HCW has put his heart and soul into this investigation. I believe he's sincere in what he believes about CB (that he's best kept behind bars) and it's no small achievement to have a judge give the go-ahead to the 5 charges pending, most particularly the Hazel Behan one. And it's got to be really frustrating for him that all his and his team's hard, investigative work over the last how many years in putting these charges together now has to be handed over to a new jurisdiction/new prosecution team who may not have the same 'passion' for these charges against CB as he does.

Because, in the scheme of things, the MM assocation is the only reason these 5 charges are actually on our radar. Were she not, only the Hazel Behan charge would likely be generating media attention outside of Germany, and even that would be low key and confined pretty much to Irish press.

I can see why you have such a positive opinion of HCW and his efforts in the cause of justice. But I really don’t think any sympathy is required for him. It has been a long and rocky road to get to where investigators are today regarding MM’s case, throughout which every progressive initiative has been systematically rubbished.
But here we are - and the work continues, which is very positive.

What HCW, prosecutors and BKA know about CB is evidence based. They know exactly what the evidence tells them because they gathered it and collated. They had no locus regarding the fact that as you say, CB is best kept behind bars was not their opinion to make. That decision belonged to the learned judges who in May 2022 refused to grant CB parole.

Snip​

MM No.1 suspect CB ruled too dangerous to be freed​

Brueckner became eligible for parole after serving half of his sentence, with time spent on remand taken into account

Maddie McCann No.1 suspect ruled too dangerous to be freed as parole denied

Brueckner became eligible for parole after serving half of his sentence, with time spent on remand taken into account

www.mirror.co.uk

Which was hardly surprising given that CB had a record of running from the police, was a Luz resident who is prime suspect in child murder. Who is a career criminal/burglar/paedophile/rapist against whom investigators have found enough evidence linking him with many sexual crimes against women and children. Charges to five of which are momentarily in abeyance as a result of jurisdiction objections.

I agree that despite the five all being stand alone offences against women and children all un-associated with MM all of which should have received their own place in justice exactly as was the successful and uninterrupted court case on behalf of DM did. And all missed by our radar. What a really good thing that was!

Quite a ludicrous situation given that CB hasn’t yet been indicted but the five have been ready to go since the detective work was carried out by early October 2022.

Perhaps you are jumping the gun just a little though in relation to the jurisdiction issue. Whatever the outcome, I doubt the hard work put into the five will go to waste between the input of the federal BKA and prosecutors – I don’t believe it is in their genes to allow that to happen.
My opinion