Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[Denis R Tandib]

Lets call some one witness A, they are british, similarly Witness B is Portuguese, can a subpoena be issued against them?

I’m not sure but what possible reason could be given for them not to testify?

Sounds like a job for Clarence Mitchell!

I think it would cause lots of problems for witnesses who claim to want to resolve the case if they didn’t act as witnesses.

 

[RichardKimble]

I’m not sure but what possible reason could be given for them not to testify?

Sounds like a job for Clarence Mitchell!

I think it would cause lots of problems for witnesses who claim to want to resolve the case if they didn’t act as witnesses.

I know we're just putting it out there, what if whoever were to say I made a statement in 2007 and have nothing to add.?

 

[RichardKimble]

personally i think CB ought to be charged in the interests of justice.

The prosecutor has made big claims. These should be tested in court.

it's been 3 years now.

The issue I see is to prove that CB murdered MM, is that there needs to be no other reasonable explanation for her death/disappearance that could exist.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I know we're just putting it out there, what if whoever were to say I made a statement in 2007 and have nothing to add.?

It's a fair point but in this scenario, the trial is of CB. Why would any witness not want to testify to help see him convicted of MM's murder? I think it would cause a great deal of suspicion in the eyes of the public. I'm not sure some people could deny it without bringing into question their involvement - but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see how it unfolded, though.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

The issue I see is to prove that CB murdered MM, is that there needs to be no other reasonable explanation for her death/disappearance that could exist.

Exactly, and there are thousands of them.

 

[Mex]

I may be completely wrong but I think a court case in which CB is the defendant will focus purely on the evidence that puts him in the frame. If the evidence mounted by the prosecution is weak a successful defence lawyer will be able to demonstrate that, not by deflecting and pointing at other evidence such as alleged sightings on the night but by undemining the actual evidence being put forward against their defendant, eg by supplying an alibi, or by challenging any witness statements, or scientific or phone evidence entered against CB . The defence is not going to call Martin Smith or Jane Tanner, of that I am 99.9% certain.

I couldn't agree more with that.

The defence are not going to raise meaningless internet chit chat as part of the case. CB will be tried on the evidence and his defence will be far too busy attempting to counter that to make an attempt to pull the wool over the judges' eyes.
I think the judges would be puzzled by the introduction of internet factoid and I doubt anything like that would be tolerated anyway as any submissions are pre-trial.
From the little I've picked up of German procedure once the case is in court lawyers don't have much to do with it until summing up
My opinion

 

[Lyall0814]

I know we're just putting it out there, what if whoever were to say I made a statement in 2007 and have nothing to add.?

Not much you can do about that I think. FF I reckon wouldn't be able to use any of the 2007 theories unless somebody has changed their story. Nothing has changed officially since the Portuguese judiciary said they'd been unable to find sufficient evidence to proceed in any direction. Unless he knows something we don't know FF won't be able to ignore that imo.

 

[Consider Dudley]

If CB is tried with only circumstantial prosecution case, it could lead to many people being questioned under oath. Therefore, even if CB were found not guilty, the trial process could help find the real perpetrator.

How would you see that working exactly? Would you be expecting witnesses to incriminate themselves in front of a German judge?

 

[mrjitty]

The issue I see is to prove that CB murdered MM, is that there needs to be no other reasonable explanation for her death/disappearance that could exist.

Yes.

Every other reasonable possibility has to be ruled out.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Exactly, and there are thousands of them.

I'm sorry but thousands of explanations for Madeleine's disappearance? Really??

 

[Consider Dudley]

Yes.

Every other reasonable possibility has to be ruled out.

I don't think that's necessary at all provided the evidence against CB is strong and collectively proves that he he did it.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't think that's necessary at all provided the evidence against CB is strong and collectively proves that he he did it.

Proof beyond reasonable doubt means all reasonably possible alternatives are ruled out.

The prosecution need not eliminate every wild possibility.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Proof beyond reasonable doubt means all reasonably possible alternatives are ruled out.

The prosecution need not eliminate every wild possibility.

Exactly what I said I think?

 

[Mex]

Not much you can do about that I think. FF I reckon wouldn't be able to use any of the 2007 theories unless somebody has changed their story. Nothing has changed officially since the Portuguese judiciary said they'd been unable to find sufficient evidence to proceed in any direction. Unless he knows something we don't know FF won't be able to ignore that imo.

Everything has changed since the three arguidos were exonerated by the Attorney General in 2008.
a) MM's case was was reopened in 2013

Portugal's Public Prosecutor's Office reopens the case of MM​

The Public Prosecutor's Office of Portugal said on Thursday (24) that it is reopening the MM case, due to the appearance of new evidence in the case of the disappearance of the British girl MM, which occurred in May 2007.

Ministério Público de Portugal reabre o caso da menina Madeleine McCann

Motivo é o aparecimento de novas provas no caso do desaparecimento. Scotland Yard também reabriu investigação e publicou retratos falados.

g1.globo.com

b) neither the German police nor the Portuguese police consider her parents suspects.

MM's parents cleared in their daughter's disappearance case​

German police said their investigation into the disappearance of MM showed her parents were completely innocent. Authorities said they had found "no indication" that the girl's mother and father, were involved when she disappeared while on holiday in Praia da Luz in Portugal in 2007.

Pais de Madeleine McCann são inocentados no caso de desaparecimento da filha

A polícia alemã disse não ter encontrado "nenhuma indicação" de que a mãe e o pai da menina, Kate e Gerry, estivessem envolvidos quando ela desapareceu durante as férias em 2007

revistamarieclaire.globo.com

Pedro do Carmo: "MM's parents are not suspects. Period"​

But what I can say, as I did in 2011 and 2013, is that MM's parents are not suspects. That statement stands: parents are not suspects. Point.​

Pedro do Carmo: “Os pais de Maddie não são suspeitos. Ponto”

Em entrevista ao Expresso, o diretor-adjunto da Polícia Judiciária, Pedro do Carmo, defende que nenhuma polícia do mundo poderia garantir resultados diferentes dos que foram obtidos até ao momento em Portugal no caso do desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann. “Nunca tínhamos tido e não voltámos a...

expresso.pt

c) There is only one suspect for three police authorities who have had the benefit of many, many years of investigating this case and others. I don't envy FF his task in arguing what I think will prove to be compelling evidence against his client who at the moment is the only suspect in the MM case.

 

[Davieson]

Everything has changed since the three arguidos were exonerated by the Attorney General in 2008.
a) MM's case was was reopened in 2013

Portugal's Public Prosecutor's Office reopens the case of MM​

The Public Prosecutor's Office of Portugal said on Thursday (24) that it is reopening the MM case, due to the appearance of new evidence in the case of the disappearance of the British girl MM, which occurred in May 2007.

Ministério Público de Portugal reabre o caso da menina Madeleine McCann

Motivo é o aparecimento de novas provas no caso do desaparecimento. Scotland Yard também reabriu investigação e publicou retratos falados.

g1.globo.com

b) neither the German police nor the Portuguese police consider her parents suspects.

MM's parents cleared in their daughter's disappearance case​

German police said their investigation into the disappearance of MM showed her parents were completely innocent. Authorities said they had found "no indication" that the girl's mother and father, were involved when she disappeared while on holiday in Praia da Luz in Portugal in 2007.

Pais de Madeleine McCann são inocentados no caso de desaparecimento da filha

A polícia alemã disse não ter encontrado "nenhuma indicação" de que a mãe e o pai da menina, Kate e Gerry, estivessem envolvidos quando ela desapareceu durante as férias em 2007

revistamarieclaire.globo.com

Pedro do Carmo: "MM's parents are not suspects. Period"​

But what I can say, as I did in 2011 and 2013, is that MM's parents are not suspects. That statement stands: parents are not suspects. Point.​

Pedro do Carmo: “Os pais de Maddie não são suspeitos. Ponto”

Em entrevista ao Expresso, o diretor-adjunto da Polícia Judiciária, Pedro do Carmo, defende que nenhuma polícia do mundo poderia garantir resultados diferentes dos que foram obtidos até ao momento em Portugal no caso do desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann. “Nunca tínhamos tido e não voltámos a...

expresso.pt

c) There is only one suspect for three police authorities who have had the benefit of many, many years of investigating this case and others. I don't envy FF his task in arguing what I think will prove to be compelling evidence against his client who at the moment is the only suspect in the MM case.

Of course it may simply be a case of follow my leader, the Germans being the lead in this case .Neither PJ nor OG have any better ideas, and it won't be their fault if it all goes pear shape.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

How would you see that working exactly? Would you be expecting witnesses to incriminate themselves in front of a German judge?

No, I would expect them to tell the truth under oath.

In the German system the judge (likely judges in this case) would lead the questioning. There are tasked with and have expertise in establishing the truth.

 

[Mex]

Of course it may simply be a case of follow my leader, the Germans being the lead in this case .Neither PJ nor OG have any better ideas, and it won't be their fault if it all goes pear shape.

Not at all. The Oporto Policia Judiciaria under Helen Monteiro were carrying out their own independent review round about the same time as OG were carrying out theirs.
Snip
Portuguese police have launched a review of the Madeleine McCann case.
A team of detectives based in Oporto in northern Portugal has been appointed to re-examine the original investigation into the little girl's disappearance from the Algarve in 2007, the Portuguese newspaper Jornal de Noticias reported.

Portugal police review Madeleine McCann case

www.independent.co.uk

Many competent investigators have spent a lot of time and expertise working on this case. Sometimes they will have hit lucky and progressed the case; sometimes not.
But the end result as far as I can see is that the MM case is going pear shaped only for one individual and that is CB.

 

[Mex]

personally i think CB ought to be charged in the interests of justice.

The prosecutor has made big claims. These should be tested in court.

it's been 3 years now.

One way to get things moving in the MM case is for jurisdiction to be resolved and the five serious crimes of which he remains accused to be tried in the chosen court.

These five cases are important and the work on them complete. They are ready to go.
Investigators are still working on the MM case which therefore is not yet complete. Fortunately - there is no pressure while there is a log jam of five.
My opinion

 

[Consider Dudley]

No, I would expect them to tell the truth under oath.

In the German system the judge (likely judges in this case) would lead the questioning. There are tasked with and have expertise in establishing the truth.

I’m not sure why you would expect anyone with some deep dark secret to sudden start telling the truth in front of a judge. Nearly all defendants pleading not guilty who were subsequently found guilty would have been lying under oath too presumably.

 

[Mex]

If CB is tried with only circumstantial prosecution case, it could lead to many people being questioned under oath. Therefore, even if CB were found not guilty, the trial process could help find the real perpetrator.

Evidence is required to charge a person before being able to bring him/her to trial.
If there was evidence to bring another to trial s/he would already be standing beside CB in the dock.

CB is the only suspect in crime against MM.