Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #40

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  • #741
Same guy who says he was informed at 21-20 a child had disappeared? yet we're told it wasn't until 22-00 this was found out? there's much HCW has to sort.

He's far from alone in placing the 'alarm' at that time. Numerous people have said that the alert for the missing child was a good half an hour before the official 10pm.

But never mind, all this will be clarified in time when CB is charged and the timings of everyone and everything will be under an international spotlight and scrutinised. Leaving no stone unturned. :)
 
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  • #742
He's far from alone in placing the 'alarm' at that time. Numerous people have said that the alert for the missing child was a good half an hour before the official 10pm.

But never mind, all this will be clarified in time when CB is charged and the timings of everyone and everything will be under an international spotlight and scrutinised. Leaving no stone unturned. :)
BIB - numerous? No. The PJ who took all the original witness statements were certain the alarm was raised around 10pm, so numerous people reported that that was the time it happened, not 30 minutes earlier.
 
  • #743
BIB - numerous? No. The PJ who took all the original witness statements were certain the alarm was raised around 10pm, so numerous people reported that that was the time it happened, not 30 minutes earlier.
Unless every single person had a watch on, or looked at a clock if one available near by,
or mobile phone at the exact time they thought something is happening here
, best check the time

Then it's going to be pretty difficult to get exact time to the minute and second
 
  • #744
Unless every single person had a watch on, or looked at a clock if one available near by,
or mobile phone at the exact time they thought something is happening here
, best check the time

Then it's going to be pretty difficult to get exact time to the minute and second
According to JC he's led to believe Madeleine was taken away in a car, if this is known so it's possibly known what the time frame is.
 
  • #745
JC said that CB left the scene in a car, allegedly, not the Westfalia.
He also said that others witnessed CB scaling buildings to burgle 2nd & 3rd floor properties which suggests that he often acted with an accomplice.
Hen and MS have made the “Climber” claims before. I think they were all involved in petty crimes. Not sure this leads to a new accomplice.
 
  • #746
So I listened to this (thanks for posting) - and it is interesting, and perhaps illustrates what is so crazy about this case and everything I don't like about it.

The main allegations that JC makes seem to be
- The Met had a good idea of the description of the abductor
- Something at the box factory links CB to MM
- CB was a skilled cat burglar
- CB was closely linked to the orphanage network handling "1000s of kids" which was a total scam.

He bases these allegations on people he has spoken to, and what he's been told by law enforcement. He says we'll learn what happened to MM in the next couple of years, or maybe even this year.

As usual what I find pretty strange is publicising what critical witnesses have supposedly said, and that HCW or BKA would leak details of evidence to JC.
The point about the Met knowing she was abducted and having a description of the abductor seems unlikely, given the areas we know glfir certain they’ve looked at i.e. Smithman and the four locals - certainly there are no similarities between the Smithman efit and CB and the four locals - two were interviewed in a documentary - likely dont look like a blonde German.

JC tries to imply he knows more than he does. The orphanage network is the thing in Foral with NF. The other stuff has been reported elsewhere.

The only new piece of info is that the Germans think MM was abducted via a car.
 
  • #747
I just listened again, JC described the orphanage as a scam but never enlarged on it? was it money ? were the children abused in the orphanage ?, were they passed on to abusers, he describes CB as being at the heart of it? what was the it ? that involved CB? Another thing, once again it's noted HeB passed on CB's name to SY in 2007 ? he said but I think it was 2008, why was he not investigated at the onset of Grange? makes no sense imo.
It’s just the thing with NF. CB was romantically involved with her but not for long.
 
  • #748
Unless every single person had a watch on, or looked at a clock if one available near by,
or mobile phone at the exact time they thought something is happening here
, best check the time

Then it's going to be pretty difficult to get exact time to the minute and second
Given the T9 were regularly checking on kids, I think we can say they must have been aware of the timings.

The reconstruction requested by the PJ would have cleared all this up. It’s disappointing the request was denied - I can’t understand why.
 
  • #749
Given the T9 were regularly checking on kids, I think we can say they must have been aware of the timings.

The reconstruction requested by the PJ would have cleared all this up. It’s disappointing the request was denied - I can’t understand why.
Inevitably time comes into it, the appeal in 2020 wanted to know about CBs movements between 9pm and 10pm ,was he around then ? the phone call at 7-32 only places him around the area then, (if it was him on the blower, )did he stay around did he move on, there's much work for the BKA to be getting on with .
 
  • #750
Inevitably time comes into it, the appeal in 2020 wanted to know about CBs movements between 9pm and 10pm ,was he around then ? the phone call at 7-32 only places him around the area then, (if it was him on the blower, )did he stay around did he move on, there's much work for the BKA to be getting on with .
The BKA can’t put him at the OC during the abduction window. Whatever they have that points to CB it’s after 3 May.

In the interview up thread, JC states that HCW has enough to charge CB but also says he is waiting for him to be convicted for the currents charges so they can negotiate with him. This indicates to me that JC is guessing - both can’t be true.

I’m still putting my money on convictions for the BSJ and Salema Beach exposure crimes and the HaB rape. After that, I think CB as a suspect for MM will fizzle away.
 
  • #751
In the interview up thread, JC states that HCW has enough to charge CB but also says he is waiting for him to be convicted for the currents charges so they can negotiate with him. This indicates to me that JC is guessing - both can’t be true.

RSBM - This is why I am highly sceptical of JC.

Should the Courts put CB away for a long time or even indefinitely (i am not sure how likely that is but let's assume he can get indefinite detention) what advantage would a confession bring? I find it highly unlikely a prisoner would be rewarded for confessing to child murder? That is a far more serious crime that what he has been charged with so far. I have never heard of such a negotiation!
 
  • #752
The point about the Met knowing she was abducted and having a description of the abductor seems unlikely, given the areas we know glfir certain they’ve looked at i.e. Smithman and the four locals - certainly there are no similarities between the Smithman efit and CB and the four locals - two were interviewed in a documentary - likely dont look like a blonde German.

JC tries to imply he knows more than he does. The orphanage network is the thing in Foral with NF. The other stuff has been reported elsewhere.

The only new piece of info is that the Germans think MM was abducted via a car.

Where I struggle with his claims is the lesson of 2007 was not to trust off the record briefing by law enforcement about unverified evidence against suspects - because then said lab evidence didn't stack up!

IMO the guts of his claims hangs on HCW or someone at BKA having told him that a solid piece of evidence connecting CB to the murder was found at the box factory.

I don't discount the possibility someone did tell him that but it is odd to me no german journalist has this story, or if they do, no one is saying it.

So basically I am not inclined to trust this from a daily mail type journalist compared to if it came from the BBC or Spiegel
 
  • #753
The only new piece of info is that the Germans think MM was abducted via a car.
The actual detail of what is supposed to have happened is what baffles me.

When I first heard of this incident and of the apartment's layout, my initial thought was that obviously, obviously someone had come in through the unlocked back door, opened the bedroom window, passed the child out to an accomplice who put her in a car, then exited through the front door and driven off. This requires an accomplice, but means that if seen, almost nothing you're doing looks suspicious. There are a few brief seconds when a bundle is being handed through a window into a car parked right outside, and you could be seen entering an apartment that's not yours. Those are the only bits that are risky.

A lone abductor could have opened the front door and car doors, taken the child, then closed all the doors. It would take longer to do, but without the use of the window it would have looked less suspicious still. The window detail thus points to two or more perps, IMO, who wanted the actual abduction done quickly and who then perhaps departed in different directions.

Then the plot thickened, because apparently, the front door was deadlocked, and could not be opened from inside without the key. Also, the window was said to have been forced.

You might leave via the window if you're already in the apartment, but you would only need to force the window if you were on the outside, trying to get in. This detail about forcing says the back door was not used at all. But forcing a window is likely to be noisy and to attract attention; climbing through any window carrying something is guaranteed to look suspicious if seen; climbing through carrying a child is not going to be simple. You'd surely need an accomplice if the window were used, whether to get in or out or to pass the child through. So did this really happen?

If OTOH entry and exit were both via the back door, you can avoid being seen by waiting until after a check has been made, then enter, leave carrying the child, walk around to the front and enter a waiting car. At no time does any of that look suspicious. Your only risk is being seen as you enter and leave through the back door by someone who knows that's not your apartment or child. There will otherwise be nothing untoward about what you're doing.

So in short, surely you would use the door. You don't need to use the window for anything because it adds risk for no benefit. If you've staked the apartment out enough to know there's an unattended child there, you'd also know the best way in is via the unlocked door. So you'd walk in and walk out through a back door you know is unlocked and unwatched.

Is the window a red herring? Was it just left open in error and had nothing to do with what happened?

This stuff is why a reconstruction would have been useful.
 
  • #754
RSBM - This is why I am highly sceptical of JC.

Should the Courts put CB away for a long time or even indefinitely (i am not sure how likely that is but let's assume he can get indefinite detention) what advantage would a confession bring? I find it highly unlikely a prisoner would be rewarded for confessing to child murder? That is a far more serious crime that what he has been charged with so far. I have never heard of such a negotiation!
IMO BKA don't need a confession as they already have enough evidence to convict CB of Madeleine's murder. Details they do need, which I think only CB can supply, via negotiation, are
a)location of the body &
b) name(s) of person/people who paid CB to abduct & kill Madeleine.
 
  • #755
IMO BKA don't need a confession as they already have enough evidence to convict CB of Madeleine's murder. Details they do need, which I think only CB can supply, via negotiation, are
a)location of the body &
b) name(s) of person/people who paid CB to abduct & kill Madeleine.
HCW has said CB acted alone, so there is no accomplish, there's either enough to charge CB or there is not, in the pod cast you posted JC reckons it could be this year or even next, that's been said for the last three yrs which imo is indicative of not enough evidence to charge CB in relation to MM.
 
  • #756
Where I struggle with his claims is the lesson of 2007 was not to trust off the record briefing by law enforcement about unverified evidence against suspects - because then said lab evidence didn't stack up!

IMO the guts of his claims hangs on HCW or someone at BKA having told him that a solid piece of evidence connecting CB to the murder was found at the box factory.

I don't discount the possibility someone did tell him that but it is odd to me no german journalist has this story, or if they do, no one is saying it.

So basically I am not inclined to trust this from a daily mail type journalist compared to if it came from the BBC or Spiegel
It would be somewhat ironic after reckoning GA supplied SF with dodgy info that JC himself would be the recipient of the same.
 
  • #757
Unless every single person had a watch on, or looked at a clock if one available near by,
or mobile phone at the exact time they thought something is happening here
, best check the time

Then it's going to be pretty difficult to get exact time to the minute and second

The Tapas lot had no difficulty in presenting a timeline. A minute by minute one. And expecting to be believed despite the 'irregularities' in that same timeline. If that timeline is to be believed, the same courtesy should be extended to those who claim the alarm was raised 30mins or so earlier than the official time. And just for clarity, it was not just one person who made the 'earlier' claim.
 
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  • #758
The actual detail of what is supposed to have happened is what baffles me.

When I first heard of this incident and of the apartment's layout, my initial thought was that obviously, obviously someone had come in through the unlocked back door, opened the bedroom window, passed the child out to an accomplice who put her in a car, then exited through the front door and driven off. This requires an accomplice, but means that if seen, almost nothing you're doing looks suspicious. There are a few brief seconds when a bundle is being handed through a window into a car parked right outside, and you could be seen entering an apartment that's not yours. Those are the only bits that are risky.

A lone abductor could have opened the front door and car doors, taken the child, then closed all the doors. It would take longer to do, but without the use of the window it would have looked less suspicious still. The window detail thus points to two or more perps, IMO, who wanted the actual abduction done quickly and who then perhaps departed in different directions.

Then the plot thickened, because apparently, the front door was deadlocked, and could not be opened from inside without the key. Also, the window was said to have been forced.

You might leave via the window if you're already in the apartment, but you would only need to force the window if you were on the outside, trying to get in. This detail about forcing says the back door was not used at all. But forcing a window is likely to be noisy and to attract attention; climbing through any window carrying something is guaranteed to look suspicious if seen; climbing through carrying a child is not going to be simple. You'd surely need an accomplice if the window were used, whether to get in or out or to pass the child through. So did this really happen?

If OTOH entry and exit were both via the back door, you can avoid being seen by waiting until after a check has been made, then enter, leave carrying the child, walk around to the front and enter a waiting car. At no time does any of that look suspicious. Your only risk is being seen as you enter and leave through the back door by someone who knows that's not your apartment or child. There will otherwise be nothing untoward about what you're doing.

So in short, surely you would use the door. You don't need to use the window for anything because it adds risk for no benefit. If you've staked the apartment out enough to know there's an unattended child there, you'd also know the best way in is via the unlocked door. So you'd walk in and walk out through a back door you know is unlocked and unwatched.

Is the window a red herring? Was it just left open in error and had nothing to do with what happened?

This stuff is why a reconstruction would have been useful.
I agree with you that the abduction as presented doesn’t make sense. We have gone deeply into this on prior threads.

If the abduction was planned, the most efficient option is entry via the unlocked patio doors and exit to a waiting car via the front door.

Questions arise because of the evidence and witness statements. Nothing suggests an abduction took place so that fact that one did has to be fitted into what people have said retrospectively. Here we go into burglary gone wrong or opportunistic abduction territory - not because of evidence but to fit a narrative…

IMO, this is why the extraction is so perplexing. Nothing points to a kidnapping. If one occurred the the abductor was lucky or stupid or both.
 
  • #759
What would be the motive for a person to do that?
It makes no sense. The opportune time to negotiate with CB is prior to him receiving a non-parole life sentence i.e. before he is convicted for HaB’s rape.

Once he is convicted, I can see no reason why he would share any of that information. How can his situation be meaningfully improved?
 
  • #760
<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
Maybe. Possibly. But a child monitor would not stop anyone stealing a child as long as they turned up prepared to force a door. Apparently someone turned up and was prepared to force a window. I've not seen any serious suggestion that these parents were at any risk of losing their children over this. You can abuse a child for years until it dies. It happens all the time - UK social services are profoundly incurious. All these people were doctors, were they not? They'd know this.
I agree with you that the abduction as presented doesn’t make sense. We have gone deeply into this on prior threads.
No doubt - I am late to this one.
If the abduction was planned, the most efficient option is entry via the unlocked patio doors and exit to a waiting car via the front door.
Yep. The only reason you'd consider a window is if you thought it would otherwise be difficult or troublesome to exit via the door, and then close it, while carrying a child. The window would, however, require a criminal accomplice to pass the child to. This creates the risk that this accomplice gets into trouble for something else one day and sells you out (this is why the police think John Cannan killed Suzy Lamplugh - one of the former's accomplices got into police trouble and informed on him).
Nothing suggests an abduction took place so that fact that one did has to be fitted into what people have said retrospectively....IMO, this is why the extraction is so perplexing. Nothing points to a kidnapping. If one occurred the the abductor was lucky or stupid or both.
Indeed - which is possible. He could have been stupid enough to mount an inept abduction and lucky enough to have got away with it.

The only real points of evidence for an abduction are that there's a missing child, and that the apartment door was unlocked, making an abduction easy. The window bit is too uncertain to factor in, IMO. Qualitatively, if you had harmed your child inadvertently and knew she would never been found, you would be best off avoiding publicity and keeping your story out of the public eye. The McCanns have done the polar opposite. So their actions are also consistent with an abduction, but aren't evidence in the sense of pointing to anyone.

<modsnip>
 
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