Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

[jjenny]

If Putin didn't supply it, there would be no reason for Russia to spirit it away and destroy it. They would want to keep the evidence.

Since when is daily mail a credible source?

 

[jjenny]

I want to ask a question, I hope it's not too insensitive to ask ... The plane was shot mid-flight and broke up. Does this mean that the cabin where crew and passengers were was destroyed and they died - or passed out - instantly from lack of pressure/oxygen? Or did they have to fall to earth in full consciousness? I just want to hope that there was not much time for fear and panic, that it was over very quickly.

My heart breaks for all these people. May they rest in peace.

Been looking at pictures of the victims here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-killed-298-people-board.html#ixzz37qJPgYVo

They would have died or passed out right away from lack of oxygen.

 

[gngr~snap]

Yes. Did you hear/see that report?

OK. CNN the woman was reporting live.I heard drive by shootings/driving down the road and shooting into homes or something similar, then I see it reported as something else now I am confused.
A bullet is different from a bomb...
Hopefully that will get cleared up soon.

All posts are MOO.

 

[gngr~snap]

I want to ask a question, I hope it's not too insensitive to ask ... The plane was shot mid-flight and broke up. Does this mean that the cabin where crew and passengers were was destroyed and they died - or passed out - instantly from lack of pressure/oxygen? Or did they have to fall to earth in full consciousness? I just want to hope that there was not much time for fear and panic, that it was over very quickly.

My heart breaks for all these people. May they rest in peace.

Been looking at pictures of the victims here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-killed-298-people-board.html#ixzz37qJPgYVo

I would think yes to everything you mentioned.
It depends where they were on the plane.



All posts are MOO.

 

[jjenny]

OK. CNN the woman was reporting live.I heard drive by shootings/driving down the road and shooting into homes or something similar, then I see it reported as something else now I am confused.
A bullet is different from a bomb...
Hopefully that will get cleared up soon.

All posts are MOO.

It sure sounds to me like CNN is trying to blame the rebels for everything now. I don't know why they would be driving around shooting at homes. That really doesn't do them any good.

 

[gngr~snap]

I would think yes to everything you mentioned.
It depends where they were on the plane.



All posts are MOO.

"I saw the bodies of a man and woman tangled together - as if they were hugging.*"

"A dead boy of about 10 years old lies with his face frozen in fear. He is still strapped to his mangled blue chair, the belt tight across his lap."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...the-gruesome-scene-for-survivors-9615895.html
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11295779

 

[gitana1]

I want to ask a question, I hope it's not too insensitive to ask ... The plane was shot mid-flight and broke up. Does this mean that the cabin where crew and passengers were was destroyed and they died - or passed out - instantly from lack of pressure/oxygen? Or did they have to fall to earth in full consciousness? I just want to hope that there was not much time for fear and panic, that it was over very quickly.

My heart breaks for all these people. May they rest in peace.

Been looking at pictures of the victims here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-killed-298-people-board.html#ixzz37qJPgYVo

Someone with knowledge stated that at that altitude, or the pressure or something, they would have immediately lost consciousness and not known what happened.

 

[SnoopyDawgDawg]

I can't find a single link to support this idea.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...in-luhansk-as-shelling-continues-9615101.html:

[snipped]

"At least 20 civilians have died when shelling continued in the rebel-held city of Luhansk in eastern Ukraine this morning, just hours after the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashed, the Luhansk city administration has reported.

The city’s official administration said the deaths came on “another black day” where shells hit almost every district in the city as Ukraine's forces continued to advance against pro-Russian rebels.

In a statement, it said: "Today intense bombardment of Luhansk has continued. Shells are falling in almost all districts of the city. According to preliminary information, more than 20 civilians have been killed since this morning."


That's the only thing I can come up with, and I don't know if that is a reputable site or not. That report says the killings are several hours away from the crash site. That sounds to me like it is not directly connected to the crash and is in fact part of the on-going problems in the area.

 

[gngr~snap]

‘A young man in blue shorts, wearing red Nike sneakers, lay with his arms and legs splayed outward, clutching his iPhone.’

"A boy around ten years old, lay on his side in a red T-shirt that read* “Don’t Panic”.

It seems as though some did live a few seconds anyway, some fully clothed and some nude. My assumption is the nude ones were thrown from the plane..
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11295779
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/it-is-hell-and-it-smells-of-death

 

[ilovepierre]

I can't even see a plane at 33,000 feet, let alone distinguish whether or not it's a commercial airliner or a military plane. At a lower altitude - maybe, but certainly not that high up.

The planes that fly over my house are just under cruising altitude and I can tell by the tail colors what airline it is.
Granted, I mostly see WestJet and Air Canada flying overhead, so it's easy for me to tell which is which.

But military personnel would be in possession of military radar, so IMO, they should have been able to see MH17 on their radar and see that it was a civilian plane.

 

[ZaZara]

They don't look like they're celebrating. We don't really have context for this - are they showing the plane they shot down and taking ownership, are they taking this photo to send to compatriots/Russia for an "oops" taking ownership situation, or are they taking this photo to document something that someone else did and they are horrified by it?

We don't really know.

The picture and it's context were confirmed by the major press agencies (afp, nbc)
The militia were picking through belongings at a crash site.

What happened to the passports, the credit cards, the money and valuables that were on the site?
Nobody knows because the militia did not allow access to OSCE.

 

[Snick1946]

But.. if the rebels just seized this rocket system, how did they know how to operate it? My guess is that they didn't have to take it- it was supplied by the Russians along with advisers to operate it. I hope I am wrong because if I am right the means Russia is complicit in murder.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

If Putin didn't supply it, there would be no reason for Russia to spirit it away and destroy it. They would want to keep the evidence.

Here is an interesting take which could leave you thinking either way depending on whether or not you believe the Russians planted the story in the local media:

Several weapons, including the Buk, are capable of hitting aircraft at this height. But so far, none of those weapons have been documented as being in the hands of separatists. Not only had it never been filmed or photographer, there were never any reports of the Ukrainian military losing such a weapon.
However, on July 14th we ran a story that one news agency, TV Zvezda, had run a report that a Buk was captured by separatists who stole it from the Ukrainian military. The problem, however, is that TV Zvezda is the official news agency for the Russian Ministry of Defense, and they are the only source for this story. In other words, if the Russian military were going to give the separatists a Buk, they would need to plant a story about how the separatists got the Buk in the first place, and they’d likely use TV Zvezda to do it.
Today, AP reporters did see a Buk in eastern Ukraine — the first time one has been seen.

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/07/1...y-to-hand-separatists-the-buk-missile-system/

The story: http://www.interpretermag.com/ukrai...-retake-several-villages-around-lugansk/#3331

The Russian separatists have been spotted with many anti-aircraft missiles. Most of them are MANPADS, shoulder-fired rockets that are quite effective. The main weapon in this category is the 9K38 Igla. But that weapon is only capable of hitting planes that are traveling at no more than approximately 3.5 kilometers (11,000 feet). Recently, we've been tracking a weapon which very well may have crossed the border from Russia into Ukraine on July 2-3rd. This is the advanced 9K35 Strela-10. But even this weapon has a maximum intercept range of about 3500 meters.

Another really interesting paragraph considering events which transpired since it was written on July 14:

The 9k37 Buk is a weapon with a range of up to 14000 meters, but has never been seen in the hands of separatists. The Russian network TV Zvezda, the news network for the Russian military, did report that a Buk fell to separatist hands on June 29th. However, is it possible that TV Zvezda was "seeding" the story, planting an explanation for why the separatists would have such an advanced weapons system? After all, they are the only source reporting this story to our knowledge, there are no pictures or videos of the separatists possessing this missile system, nor have we been able to tie the claims made by TV Zvezda back to a specific incident that may have resulted in the loss of such a weapon. Just one day later Ukraine launched its new anti-terrorism operation, capturing significant separatist territory and flushing out a lot of the separatist vehicles, and yet no 9k37 Buks were spotted during this time to our knowledge.

Bloody 'ell eh?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

But.. if the rebels just seized this rocket system, how did they know how to operate it? My guess is that they didn't have to take it- it was supplied by the Russians along with advisers to operate it. I hope I am wrong because if I am right the means Russia is complicit in murder.

A lot of the separatists are ex Russian army, they could have had training well before becoming rebels.

 

[CARIIS]

Anyone know how to get the weather (temperature last wo days and forecast) of the crash site since it crashed. There are reports about decomposition (seems fast?). If accurate and its hot – it is going to become a bio hazard site. It’s not like as far as we know ANY “stuff” is heading out to site

….In US air crash in Pittsburg crash they had wear biohazard suits, I vividly remember reading that – it freaked me out.

. The workers wore protective clothing and were decontaminated when they left the site.....

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/10/u...scene-destruction-leaves-emergency-crews.html

It also seems like they could (on the second call released where they called the killing machine a “beauty) they would know if the call was between two terrorists OR a terrorist and someone in Russia??

I also wondered if anyone from the west that goes to the site might be in personal danger

 

[CARIIS]

how did they know how to operate it

That is a good point

 

[LambChop]

I do think there is a big difference between being a separatist and being a terrorist. The role of a separatist is to fight the military and unfortunately there are civilian causalities that are not specifically targeted. The role of a terrorist is to kill as many civilians as they can in one single act. The attack that occurred on American soil, just as an attack on any country's soil or territory, would be considered a declaration of war. Has been that way since recorded time. To defend yourself would be expected. In this case it appears the separatist thought they were shooting down a military plane. It does not appear that they intended to shoot down a civilian aircraft. However their actions after the fact will do nothing to help their cause, I might imagine.

If they claim they just captured this equipment then who trained them in how to use it. Because it appears they have been using it for awhile.

See ZaZara's post #830 with the video. JMO

 

[sorrell skye]

OK. CNN the woman was reporting live.I heard drive by shootings/driving down the road and shooting into homes or something similar, then I see it reported as something else now I am confused.
A bullet is different from a bomb...
Hopefully that will get cleared up soon.

All posts are MOO.

When CNN live reported it earlier, it was referred to as a "drive-by shooting" that killed 20 civilians.

Now, when I google it, it's being referred to as "shelling".

Sounds like CNN may have misreported it earlier, is my guess.

 

[time]

The picture and it's context were confirmed by the major press agencies (afp, nbc)
The militia were picking through belongings at a crash site.

What happened to the passports, the credit cards, the money and valuables that were on the site?
Nobody knows because the militia did not allow access to OSCE.

Do you have a link for this?

 

[Momoffourboys]

This is one of the most horrific incidents of my time. The descriptions of the passengers...the kids...the babies just break my heart. I pray for our world. It is such a sad and terrifying place today. Senseless loss of innocent lives.