Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

[zwiebel]

Didn't Pres Putin say something about the rebels are all Ukranians or Russian criminals on the run? So how can a commander be 'recalled' and resign in Moscow?

Is there double speak here or am I losing my mind?

 

[gngr~snap]

I don't know why they will not allow people to the scene. They are gonna bee really sorry within the 24hours. With the rain and the heat they should open the flood gates and take all the help they can get.

Even the reporters are saying when they drove up the air is acrid.
All posts are MOO.

 

[zwiebel]

I wish I could take credit for the witty pun, but it was Rory Challands.

I'd never heard of him, but as we have the same taste in puns, I'll take an interest now!

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/profile/rory-challands

 

[Isabelle]

BBM

'Igor Girkin, a local pro-Russian military commander who had appeared to acknowledge his forces shot down the Boeing 777 in a Facebook posting later deleted, was tonight quoted in the Russian media suggesting that the jet had been deliberately loaded with corpses and crashed to damage the rebel cause.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...the-gruesome-scene-for-survivors-9615895.html

For heaven's sake. First a soldier told a BBC producer the Queen of England was responsible, now the commander is suggesting all the nations of the victims are involved in some vast conspiracy, pretending their citizens are dead when really the plane was only carrying corpses.

These men are an embarrasment to their cause, and their nation, whatever it is. In my opinion.

What lunatics!

 

[skibaboo]

The planes that fly over my house are just under cruising altitude and I can tell by the tail colors what airline it is.
Granted, I mostly see WestJet and Air Canada flying overhead, so it's easy for me to tell which is which.

But military personnel would be in possession of military radar, so IMO, they should have been able to see MH17 on their radar and see that it was a civilian plane.

I love planes and have been a plane spotter for about 20 years. I used to be looking at the sky with binoculars trying to see what type of plane and what airline was flying up up in the sky. Not anymore! With my flightradar24 app on my iPhone. not only can you look at a map of all aircraft in the skies but I just need to point my phone to the sky and it shows all commercial airplanes within range of me, and the distance from me. And at the click of a tab it will tell you all the flight details of whichever plane you click on.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

OK I read another article I probably shouldn't have and two lines in I'm hot under the collar.

On Putin:

He can either deny all knowledge and any culpability and risk even greater isolation and harsher sanctions from NATO and the United States or he can condemn the actions of local rebel commanders and withdraw support from eastern Ukraine thus allowing Ukrainian forces to move in and tidy up their eastern border.

http://www.news.com.au/world/russian-president-vladimir-putins-response-to-mh17-crash-could-it-spark-war/story-fndir2ev-1226993795375

Oh really Australian press? So basically Putin can either deny knowledge, which you have decided is a lie and be punished OR he can give up what he wants with Ukraine, and from what I can gather a number of Ukrainians also want.

I do not pretend to understand whatever the hell is going on over there for an instant, but I'm fairly sure such black and white views are way off the mark, we really need to stop looking at conflicts in other countries through our own western agenda prism.

Ridiculous.

 

[zwiebel]

I don't know why they will not allow people to the scene. They are gonna bee really sorry within the 24hours. With the rain and the heat they should open the flood gates and take all the help they can get.

Even the reporters are saying when they drove up the air is acrid.
All posts are MOO.

I really don't know, although I have tried to find out from people who might know. The best idea I get is that:

1) The 'military' in charge are not miltary in the sense most of us would think. They are disorganized and working more on a defensive 'idea' of what their higher ups might want. Without actually ordering it.

2) Some of the bodies appeared to me to have clear shrapnel wounds - evidence perhaps of the plane being hit by a missile. It might benefit anyone who wanted to cover up to allow decomposition?

3) The missile which hit the plane will have had identification on it. Where it was made, and so where it came from. That might be in the wreckage somewhere. Anybody who wanted to cover up, wouldn't want that found.

Just my ideas.

 

[ZaZara]

Dutch reporter Olaf Koens reports from the site of the crash:
@obk https://twitter.com/obk

This tweet in English only:

Just went through a mad army/national-guard check-point where soldies hold grenades in their hands as they inspect documents. Mad <modship>.

Wat een gruwel. Hier tussen de zonnenbloemen liggen de brokstukken van de vlucht Amsterdam - Kuala Lumpur. De lijken, de koffers, de post

Translation:

What an abomination. Here among the sunflowers lay the broken pieces of the flight Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur. The corpses, the suitcases, the mail

De rebellen stuurden iedereen at gunpoint weg. Alleen de plaatselijke reddingsdiensten werken hier

Translation:

The rebels sent everyone away at gunpoint. Only the local rescue services work here

Verder op de weg: meer brokstukken van het vliegtuig. Overal lijken. Avondklok. Slaap nu bij de reddingsdienst in een tent. Tussen de lijken

Translation:

Further down the road: more debris of the aircraft. Bodies everywhere. Curfew. Sleep now with the rescue service in a tent. Between the corpses

De mannen van de reddingsdienst drinken om het leven. Dat helpt. Een beetje.

Translation:

The men of the rescue service drink for life. That helps. A little .

Als ik deze telefoon omdraai schijnt het licht over de velden. Daar staan de stokken. Zo veel stokken. Iedere stok een stoffelijk overschot.

Translation:

If I turn this phone, the light shines over the fields. There are the sticks. So many sticks. Each stick a mortal remains

 

[time]

OK I read another article I probably shouldn't have and two lines in I'm hot under the collar.

On Putin:

He can either deny all knowledge and any culpability and risk even greater isolation and harsher sanctions from NATO and the United States or he can condemn the actions of local rebel commanders and withdraw support from eastern Ukraine thus allowing Ukrainian forces to move in and tidy up their eastern border.

http://www.news.com.au/world/russian-president-vladimir-putins-response-to-mh17-crash-could-it-spark-war/story-fndir2ev-1226993795375

Oh really Australian press? So basically Putin can either deny knowledge, which you have decided is a lie and be punished OR he can give up what he wants with Ukraine, and from what I can gather a number of Ukrainians also want.

I do not pretend to understand whatever the hell is going on over there for an instant, but I'm fairly sure such black and white views are way off the mark, we really need to stop looking at conflicts in other countries through our own western agenda prism.

Ridiculous.

Agree... I've been warned not to get too political, but how does this kind of talk in the press help?

 

[zwiebel]

I wanted to say that I think the non-military locals - the small-time farmers and miners there - are doing everything they can (or are allowed) to do to help. I want to thank those Ukranian locals as this must be so hard for them too.

They've been leaving flowers on the bodies. They care. That's important.

 

[zwiebel]

I don't know what this latest article says as I always think I understand Dutch, but really I don't.

But the grief of the people of the Netherlands needs no words.

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederla...erlandse-slachtoffers-loopt-op-naar-193.dhtml

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Agree... I've been warned not to get too political, but how does this kind of talk in the press help?

It just shows our incredible bias .. I fear over the next few weeks we will see an anti Putin agenda in the press escalate with the design of influencing the majority of Australians into becoming sympathetic to our involvement in another conflict which has nothing to do with us at the behest of the USA. Let's not forget who owns news.com.au ie Rupert Murdoch, who is right now negotiating to buy Time Warner. Pretending our press is not filled with propaganda, as we are so quick to accuse the Russian press of being filled with, is a fallacy.

We had a clear position on this conflict way before this tragedy occurred. In fact .. our position on the conflict in the Ukraine was predictable even 100 years ago.

 

[Trident]

OK I read another article I probably shouldn't have and two lines in I'm hot under the collar.

On Putin:

He can either deny all knowledge and any culpability and risk even greater isolation and harsher sanctions from NATO and the United States or he can condemn the actions of local rebel commanders and withdraw support from eastern Ukraine thus allowing Ukrainian forces to move in and tidy up their eastern border.

http://www.news.com.au/world/russian-president-vladimir-putins-response-to-mh17-crash-could-it-spark-war/story-fndir2ev-1226993795375

Oh really Australian press? So basically Putin can either deny knowledge, which you have decided is a lie and be punished OR he can give up what he wants with Ukraine, and from what I can gather a number of Ukrainians also want.

I do not pretend to understand whatever the hell is going on over there for an instant, but I'm fairly sure such black and white views are way off the mark, we really need to stop looking at conflicts in other countries through our own western agenda prism.

Ridiculous.

The voice of reason. Thank you.

 

[jellybeanz]

Excellent post Mrs G

 

[gia2]

This guy is awesome Noah Sneider, he was first reporter (he was close by) at the scene......
Here is one of his phone calls to CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash-scene/

when asked about looting --- sorry his answer was.........There is nothing to loot off the passengers, they were torn to shreds ------many of them are inside out..............noone would TOUCH anything I have seen thus far

This is only one person's experience of the scene, remember that the wreckage spans over a span of miles. I've seen pictures which depict bodies in vastly different conditions, some incredibly damaged others suprisingly not so.

There have been quite a few reports of looting, I think this is perhaps referring to the looting of the luggage which fell from the plane rather than from the passengers though.

Several articles have shown a pile of passenger passports, so someone (probably investigators on site) have looked through luggage to get a hold of these. You can see an image of these here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696340/Up-10-British-23-American-passengers-feared-dead-Malaysian-Airlines-MH17-shot-Ukraine.html

It's strange to see a mention of human skeletons, I'm not sure why a body would be in such a state at this point. I've seen absolutely terrible images of the passengers, but none I'd describe as 'skeletons'. Of course I'm not there and this reporter was, i'm not doubting it. I'm just trying to say that I think there are very different scenes, depending on where you are observing the sites.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

LOL .. thanks .. it's transparent isn't it? I just saw the worlds worst front page from the Daily Mirror which is another classic example of this BS flying around today:

 

[SilkySifaka]

“Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and loved ones of those on board flight MH17, and INTERPOL has offered its full assistance to all relevant member countries to help identify and repatriate their remains with dignity to their home countries,” said Secretary General Noble

. http://www.interpol.int/News-and-media/News/2014/N2014-132

CNN juwst reported a few minutes ago that separatists took 36 bodies away with them and also removed communication equipment from the local rescuers

 

[SilkySifaka]

Dutch reporter Olaf Koens reports from the site of the crash:
@obk https://twitter.com/obk

This tweet in English only:




Translation:





Translation:





Translation:





Translation:





Translation:

How very very sad and sickening. omg.

 

[skibaboo]

LOL .. thanks .. it's transparent isn't it? I just saw the worlds worst front page from the Daily Mirror which is another classic example of this BS flying around today:

View attachment 55144

Even worse is tomorrows from The S*n, but don't even get me started on that or Murdoch :stormingmad:

 

[gia2]

It's so disturbing to think that the passengers have been left where they fell for so long, not attended to or given the treatment we would want for out loved ones. This must be incredibly traumatic for their families, to think of them like that.

It must be so disturbing for the locals to have witnessed this, but as you said they are doing a lot to give some peace to the area with flowers and such.