Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #5

[tresir2012]

Police deny taking Nora Quoirin’s parents to meet mediums during search | Malay Mail

Recent article denying previous MSM reports of visits to mediums.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

POLICE yesterday came out to defend their efforts to locate Irish teenager Nora Anne Quoirin, adding that the public should stop speculating on the case and move on.

Negri Sembilan Police Chief Mohamad Mat Yusof, who was the media’s police “face” during the 10-day episode, repeated that there were no elements of foul play in the teenager’s death, as various theories surrounding her death surface online and on social media.
Stop speculating on Nora case and move on, urge cops | The Malaysian Insight

 

[MsBetsy]

Can you explain what is the proper info about the waterfall and provide the link?

There are several articles, and they are all worded a little differently.
I'm pretty sure you can find it in the DM, and the Malaysia Mail, although I will have to go back and check if that's right. There are several sources.

But from what I remember, one of the hikers (I can't recall her name) had said that they had heard that Nora told her family when they were at the resort that she was excited about seeing the waterfall, so they decided to search near the water fall and they found her body. It was an area that had already been searched extensively by the search team.

It wasn't very clear how they got the information, just that she had told her family she was excited. For all we know it may have been the Dutch tourist. She seemed to know a lot about what they did. She must have observed them playing outside before the family went to bed at 10:00 (reportedly)

So it has not been verified as to whether her parents suggested they look there, or someone else suggested it, or if anyone suggested it. It could be that LE asked the family if there was anything she especially wanted to see and they mentioned the waterfall and the searchers somehow found out and "came up" with the idea.

Since they had already searched the general area (2.5 sqare miles) for over a week with over 300 searchers, including cadaver dogs, it's amazing that they did not find her earlier.

Also, the trail from the resort leads directly to the waterfall so it's reasonable that police would have already thought to look everywhere between the resort and the falls. It may have been right in the center of the search area. (or more likely, the resort itself.)

The way it is described as previously "unknown" information is a little misleading. I doubt police never considered that she may have made it the 1.6 miles, even though it seemed unlikely that she could get there on her own. Her parents have consistently said she could not have gotten there, as she had never wandered off or gone anywhere independently before. She was dependent on family and care givers, and was shy, sensitive, and anxious around others.

I would think her going to the falls would be a common assumption, at least it was on the thread in the very beginning. (for others and the public, who would not understand the extent of her disability.
In fact from what I understand, the falls are the main (and maybe only)attraction, in the area. Imo

 

[tresir2012]

There are several articles, and they are all worded a little differently.
I'm pretty sure you can find it in the DM, and the Malaysia Mail, although I will have to go back and check if that's right. There are several sources.

But from what I remember, one of the hikers (I can't recall her name) had said that they had heard that Nora told her family when they were at the resort that she was excited about seeing the waterfall, so they decided to search near the water fall and they found her body. It was an area that had already been searched extensively by the search team.

It wasn't very clear how they got the information, just that she had told her family she was excited. For all we know it may have been the Dutch tourist. She seemed to know a lot about what they did. She must have observed them playing outside before the family went to bed at 10:00 (reportedly)

So it has not been verified as to whether her parents suggested they look there, or someone else suggested it, or if anyone suggested it. It could be that LE asked the family if there was anything she especially wanted to see and they mentioned the waterfall and the searchers somehow found out and "came up" with the idea.

Since they had already searched the general area (2.5 sqare miles) for over a week with over 300 searchers, including cadaver dogs, it's amazing that they did not find her earlier.

Also, the trail from the resort leads directly to the waterfall so it's reasonable that police would have already thought to look everywhere between the resort and the falls.

The way it is described as previously "unknown" information is a little misleading. I doubt police never considered that she may have made it the 1.6 miles, even though it seemed unlikely that she could get there on her own. Imo

Thanks for explaining. I have been reading some conflicting reports. Some have said fingerprints were found on the open window. Some say the body was naked, some say partly clothed. Some have said the body was near the waterfall, while others say in a ravine and had to be helicoptered out. Some say mediums were consulted and some say that is not correct. Very confusing and conflicting reports. I hope they have a second post mortem. It would also be important to find her underwear, if indeed she was found naked. What a terrible outcome.

 

[MsBetsy]

Thanks for explaining. I have been reading some conflicting reports. Some have said fingerprints were found on the open window. Some say the body was naked, some say partly clothed. Some have said the body was near the waterfall, while others say in a ravine and had to be helicoptered out. Some say mediums were consulted and some say that is not correct. Very confusing and conflicting reports. I hope they have a second post mortem. It would also be important to find her underwear, if indeed she was found naked. What a terrible outcome.

Yes, the translation problems are also a factor. There were prints on the window (although we don't yet know if they were determined to belong to an outsider), and apparently it could be opened from the outside, although I'm not sure that was verified. Her mother said she would have never opened the window and propped it open. (She did not understand anything conceptual.)

She was wearing underwear and was barefoot when she went missing. No items were found taken from the resort.

She was found completely naked, her body was located at the bottom of a ravine 3/4 of a mile down to where the stream was. I'm not sure how close it was to the waterfall, but it was never stated it was found "at" the waterfall, as far as I know. At least not by police.
And yes, it had to be winced out by helicopter because it was in an inaccessible area. There were thick vines and steep slopes that were hard for the searchers even to get through.

Yet Nora, who had problems with mobility, did not go anywhere independently, and was starving, weak, exhausted and very ill, somehow managed to survive and walk 1.6 miles or longer, for 7 or 8 days before she died. Imo

 

[neesaki]

POLICE yesterday came out to defend their efforts to locate Irish teenager Nora Anne Quoirin, adding that the public should stop speculating on the case and move on.

Negri Sembilan Police Chief Mohamad Mat Yusof, who was the media’s police “face” during the 10-day episode, repeated that there were no elements of foul play in the teenager’s death, as various theories surrounding her death surface online and on social media.
Stop speculating on Nora case and move on, urge cops | The Malaysian Insight

I have no doubt that the Negri Sembilan Police did everything in their power to find this precious child. I think it's wrong for the family or the country of France to be criticizing or belittling their handling of the case. JMO
Considering the circumstances, the family should be nothing less than extremely grateful, which, I have no doubt they are.

Not to mention the countless searchers who sacrificed their personal time, and time from their festival, and not to mention put their own lives at risk, to endure this arduous search. It's heroic and beyond commendable. They are no doubt very conscientious, caring, and wonderful human beings to go to the lengths that they did, all for someone who was completely unknown to their community... foreign tourists, strangers.

I also believe LE when they say there was no evidence of foul play. Apparently whoever did this was extremely careful, in the manner in which Nora was taken to that area and left to die, IMO.... and to leave no evidence.

And I certainly don't blame LE for wanting to end the endless speculation on the case... possibly one of the topmost Impossible Dreams of all Law enforcement entities in cases anything like this one, especially with the proliferation of Social Media, IMO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

THE mobilisation of logistics and volunteers in the search for Nora Anne Quoirinwas both impressive and inspiring. It is sad that with all the efforts taken, we could not save her.

We now share the grief over the loss of this child, who died in somewhat mysterious circumstances. And when official enquiries and investigations cannot completely explain the circumstances leading to her death, speculation feeds on the possibilities.

Two key questions stand out – could someone known to the victim be responsible, and did the authorities act fast enough to cover all angles, using all the tools of investigation available?

Police, caught between a rock and a hard place, could not classify the case as a criminal offence simply because the first information report did not say if there was suspicion of an offence.

The authorities, however, have done their best by standard operating procedures.

On the same note, and at the other end of the competency spectrum, I am afraid we fall short of experience and subjectivity to make the right calls.

We need to immediately revamp our SOPs on missing persons. We owe Nora Anne and her loved ones at least that.

Reports lodged on missing persons must be acted on swiftly and efficiently. The general SOP in place now is to wait 24 hours before investigations are launched. Police actions are faster when cases are classified as a criminal offence

A Missing Persons Act with all the powers of a criminal investigation, as stipulated in the criminal procedure code, should be considered.

At the moment, missing persons enquiries are left to the officer in charge of a police station (OCS), and are not given the same priority as a criminal case.
Beef up missing persons investigations | The Malaysian Insight

 

[Seni]

Had they been to the resort before? Did they know the owners or any guests?

We don´t know this.

 

[Seni]

Were these doors locked? Had they been unlocked from inside/outside? Why did the parent's suspect abduction?

The main door had no lock, the ground level where the parents were sleeping was open. No need for an open window for the escape route.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Malaysian state police chief, Deputy Commander Datuk Mohamad Mat Yusop, said that local law enforcement officers and officials from Ireland and France have left the area where the body of the 15-year-old, who had special needs, was found last week after going missing.

"As such, we have moved out," he told reporters.

"French and Irish investigators who had been working with Malaysian police have also left the area".

He said investigators would return only if "the need arose".
Police call off hunt for clues as tragic Nora's body is brought home - Herald.ie

 

[Seni]

Nora Quoirin search team expert says it was 'impossible' for her to reach jungle ravine where she was found starved to death as family demands answers

This may have been posted already as it is two days old but it does have a timeline and is quoting an expert stating it would have been impossible for Nora to have got to the ravine by herself.

"You have to cross two reasonably deep streams to reach the area where she was found.

"The terrain by the stream is very slippery. The roots and rocks are wet.

"My boots were destroyed by the end and Nora was barefoot.

"I can’t imagine how she could have walked to the place where she was found."

Nora’s family have consistently said they can't believe she walked out on her own - and this new information has brought more speculation to the theory."

It would depend from which side Nora was approaching, whether she had crossed the river at shallow areas and maybe criss-crossed as you do to find the best path.

We do not know if she was comfortable around water or a swimmer but I would hedge a bet that she was given the choice of the resort.

 

[Seni]

The only question mark I would have regards the discovery of Nora being missing is that the time of discovery seems to me to be very late, given the cacophony that you are treated to from very early on, pre-dawn.

You may try to nap for a bit, but IMO would be very awake from this time onwards, apart from the obvious excitement at seeing the jungle wake up.

 

[MsBetsy]

The main door had no lock, the ground level where the parents were sleeping was open. No need for an open window for the escape route.

Do you remember where it was verified that there was no lock on the door?
If this were the case than why wouldn't Nora just walk out the door instead of making the effort to climb out the window?

 

[Seni]

Do you remember where it was verified that there was no lock on the door?
If this were the case than why wouldn't Nora just walk out the door instead of making the effort to climb out the window?

Yes, MB several reviews mention this, plus the Sora house having an open wall section on the ground floor.

 

[MsBetsy]

The only question mark I would have regards the discovery of Nora being missing is that the time of discovery seems to me to be very late, given the cacophony that you are treated to from very early on, pre-dawn.

You may try to nap for a bit, but IMO would be very awake from this time onwards, apart from the obvious excitement at seeing the jungle wake up.

Well, they could not help what time they woke up.

Even more importantly, as the above article suggests, it might be a good idea for a specific "Missing Persons Act," in order to assist and require that police act faster than the usual 24 hours, especially when it comes to children and people with disabilities who would be considered endangered.
The first 24 hours are crucial.

Considering there are 4 children who go missing every day in Malaysia, maybe it's time for a change.

It would be great if they could name such an Act after Nora. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, MB several reviews mention this, plus the Sora house having an open wall section on the ground floor.

I thought LE never made it clear whether or not the door or the windows could be opened from the outside. Which news source was this?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Well, they could not help what time they woke up.

Even more importantly, as the above article suggests, it might be a good idea for a specific "Missing Persons Act," in order to assist and require that police act faster than the usual 24 hours, especially when it comes to children and people with disabilities who would be considered endangered.
The first 24 hours are crucial.

Considering there are 4 children who go missing every day in Malaysia, maybe it's time for a change.

It would be great if they could name such an Act after Nora. Imo

this idea. Thanks MsBetsy.

 

[Seni]

Well, they could not help what time they woke up.

Actually it could be relevant. Admittedly we often stayed in much more primitive accommodation in tropical areas with our kids. During the night I would get up several times to check, twice found a scorpion on my youngest's mosquito net, once found an ant trail leading into a bed, another time a cat leaving the entrails of some unfortunate creature in my shoe...

The Mam radar rarely switches off and IMO would be doubly switched on under new and different conditions.

 

[neesaki]

The only question mark I would have regards the discovery of Nora being missing is that the time of discovery seems to me to be very late, given the cacophony that you are treated to from very early on, pre-dawn.

You may try to nap for a bit, but IMO would be very awake from this time onwards, apart from the obvious excitement at seeing the jungle wake up.

Thank you very much, Seni, for bringing this up.
This very thing has been nagging at the back of my mind since I first heard that Nora wasn’t discovered to be missing until 8:00 a.m. Thats especially hard to believe when there are three children there. All excited and ready to venture out in the new place.
And thank you very much for your personal insight regarding this very disturbing case.

 

[Marmlet]

The only question mark I would have regards the discovery of Nora being missing is that the time of discovery seems to me to be very late, given the cacophony that you are treated to from very early on, pre-dawn.

You may try to nap for a bit, but IMO would be very awake from this time onwards, apart from the obvious excitement at seeing the jungle wake up.

I’m glad to find that I’m not the only one who has pondered on this. I didn’t think it was nefarious or sinister by any means, but I did think it was a little unusual for the first one awake to be at 8:00. Mainly because the cottage was so open, and light and sounds would definitely have me awake earlier, even without kids excited in a new place.

I didn’t see it as a sign of anything bad, I just thought they must be much heavier sleepers than I am, and lucky to have kids who sleep so late! Maybe jet lag or some type of allergy medication, etc. could have affected the heaviness of their sleep. I have travelled internationally, and jet lag doesn’t affect me in that way, but I’m sure everyone is different.

Has anyone read or heard anything about the events of that morning — were mom and other kids still sleeping at 8:00? Had dad been awake for awhile before discovering her missing? Do we know what time the children were last checked up on, the night before? I have followed this pretty closely and haven’t heard any details on that, but could have missed something. In the US, details like this usually seem to come out.

I have wondered if her leaving in the morning, after sunrise, was even an actual possibility? If other family members were awake before sunrise, then she must have left (however it happened) in the dark of night. It would be helpful to know how early the first family member woke up that morning. Just because dad discovered her missing at 8:00 doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have been awake sooner, and just didn’t go upstairs until 8:00.