Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

[kittythehare]

So when you refer to the "full report", you mean the full Malaysian report.
You don't mean the inclusion of the second autopsy done in Europe?

I refer to the PRELIMINARY REPORT vs The Full AuTOPSY report, news of which has just emerged since the inquest began.
I have posted several links to this over the past few days.
The British pathologist has not yet testified to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Chiatos]

So we have more reports stating area was searched on 8 Aug, not 9 as per BBC journo we discussed earlier.
4 days dead on 13th...

Superintendent Besar tells inquest the last time the police searched the exact area where Nora Quoirin's body was eventually discovered, was 9 August. Context: Her body was found by a group of civilian search volunteers [four days later] on 13 August .
https://twitter.com/Howardrjohnson/status/1298502192165318657

 

[Ruthbullock]

Speaking outside the police headquarters in Seremban, Negri Sembilan police chief Mohammad Mat Yusop said Nora had died “two to three days ago” from internal bleeding in her intestine, possibly caused by “prolonged starvation or stress”.

She also had bruising on her legs but there was “no sign of violence, abduction or kidnapping” and “no evidence of foul play for the time being”, though tests were still ongoing.

The exact cause of death given by the police was “upper gastrointestinal bleeding due to duodenal ulcer complicated with perforation”.

I do think we need to be wary of twisting the facts to fit the story. It was a maximum of four days, but more likely two- three. It’s a bit like the no injuries on her feet and legs- there has never been a quote that said that, merely that there were no deep wounds- there were scratches and there were bruises. We also know they couldn’t get fingerprints from her body which is down to decomposition, her feet may have lost there top layers of skin and therefore only deeper lacerations would have been seen.

I’m not convinced she would have realised they were a search party. Could it have been frightening to hear strange people shouting in the jungle?

I completely agree

 

[Sarahlou]

The one doesn't rule out the other.
Nora could have reached that spot (been taken there) after they were gone. All on the 9th.

Or, she was placed there after she had died.

Maybe someone placed her there knowing they'd already searched that area and wouldn't be back for a while.

 

[kittythehare]

Speaking outside the police headquarters in Seremban, Negri Sembilan police chief Mohammad Mat Yusop said Nora had died “two to three days ago” from internal bleeding in her intestine, possibly caused by “prolonged starvation or stress”.

She also had bruising on her legs but there was “no sign of violence, abduction or kidnapping” and “no evidence of foul play for the time being”, though tests were still ongoing.

The exact cause of death given by the police was “upper gastrointestinal bleeding due to duodenal ulcer complicated with perforation”.

I do think we need to be wary of twisting the facts to fit the story. It was a maximum of four days, but more likely two- three. It’s a bit like the no injuries on her feet and legs- there has never been a quote that said that, merely that there were no deep wounds- there were scratches and there were bruises. We also know they couldn’t get fingerprints from her body which is down to decomposition, her feet may have lost there top layers of skin and therefore only deeper lacerations would have been seen.

I completely agree

Ruth you are still referencing an older report.
When somebody dies in unexplained circumstances, a preliminary autopsy is conducted.
In the course of that autopsy samples are taken from the body and sometimes organs are too and they are sent for laboratory examination.
So, whereas a preliminary autopsy can tell cause of death, in this case it was obvious, the perforation was visible, it cannot ascertain all pathology until extensive laboratory examination takes place and sometimes this takes a very long time.
Nora was dead for 4 days, not 2 or 3. That information was gleaned as a result of a deeper pathological investigation, not a preliminary autopsy.
There's tons of forensic information available free online for anyone that wants to see it.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Maybe someone placed her there knowing they'd already searched that area and wouldn't be back for a while.

I don’t understand why anyone would place her in that spot. It was all over the Malaysian press, posters and police all over the local area. If it was to honour her spirit I would have thought she would have been placed by one of the two waterfalls in the local area. For a few days at the beginning her love of waterfalls was the big news. I would be more inclined to believe foul play if she was found in a building, or out of the search area. JMO though and I understand others feel differently.
@Officer Dibble in answer to your post- they tested her for all recreational drugs so yes cannabis would be on that list. Thanks for going through some of the video- the English speaker is there solicitor and will be asking questions after discussions with her parents throughout the inquest. Her parents will be demanding answers, rightly so, to the important questions- so if we aren’t getting answers it’s because there is no evidence one way or the other. There were 9 people today on the zoom who weren’t in court and were watching from elsewhere.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Ruth you are still referencing an older report.
When somebody dies in unexplained circumstances, a preliminary autopsy is conducted.
In the course of that autopsy samples are taken from the body and sometimes organs are too and they are sent for laboratory examination.
So, whereas a preliminary autopsy can tell cause of death, in this case it was obvious, the perforation was visible, it cannot ascertain all pathology until extensive laboratory examination takes place and sometimes this takes a very long time.
Nora was dead for 4 days, not 2 or 3. That information was gleaned as a result of a deeper pathological investigation, not a preliminary autopsy.
There's tons of forensic information available free online for anyone that wants to see it.

I explained right back four days is the day after they last searched there, work back from the day they found her as day 1. If you work forwards it’s three days. As they started on the day they found her they will work in reverse. At the end of the day it’s irrelevant in so much as she wasn’t there when the search party was.

 

[kittythehare]

I explained right back four days is the day after they last searched there, work back from the day they found her as day 1.

She was found on 13th. Pathologist has testified she 'drew her last breath' 4 days prior to discovery.
That is the point.
The prelim estimated 2-3, the full autopsy clarified that and it was actually 4, either that or all the media in the world are lying.
Nora was dead for 4 days when she was discovered on August 13,
The bbc journalist either got date of last search in area wrong or other journalists did.
There is however, no dispute regarding the length of time she was dead when her body was discovered.

 

[Chiatos]

I don’t understand why anyone would place her in that spot. It was all over the Malaysian press, posters and police all over the local area. If it was to honour her spirit I would have thought she would have been placed by one of the two waterfalls in the local area. For a few days at the beginning her love of waterfalls was the big news. I would be more inclined to believe foul play if she was found in a building, or out of the search area. JMO though and I understand others feel differently.
@Officer Dibble in answer to your post- they tested her for all recreational drugs so yes cannabis would be on that list. Thanks for going through some of the video- the English speaker is there solicitor and will be asking questions after discussions with her parents throughout the inquest. Her parents will be demanding answers, rightly so, to the important questions- so if we aren’t getting answers it’s because there is no evidence one way or the other. There were 9 people today on the zoom who weren’t in court and were watching from elsewhere.

If Nora was placed there, she was purposely placed in plain sight so that she could be found.
By coincidence (or not) Nora was found the day after the Shaman held his ceremony.

 

[Ruthbullock]

She was found on 13th. Pathologist has testified she 'drew her last breath' 4 days prior to discovery.
That is the point.
The prelim estimated 2-3, the full autopsy clarified that and it was actually 4, either that or all the media in the world are lying.
Nora was dead for 4 days when she was discovered on August 13,
The bbc journalist either got date of last search in area wrong or other journalists did.
There is however, no dispute regarding the length of time she was dead when her body was discovered.

13th day of autopsy- day 1
12th- day 2
11th- day 3
10th- day 4, day she passed
9th- last day area was searched

 

[kittythehare]

13th day of autopsy- day 1
12th- day 2
11th- day 3
10th- day 4, day she passed
9th- last day area was searched

a day is 24 hrs,
13-12= 1 day
12-11= 2 days
11-10= 3 day
10-9= 4 days.
The last search being 9th is contested in several media outlets.

 

[kittythehare]

If Nora was placed there, she was purposely placed in plain sight so that she could be found.
By coincidence (or not) Nora was found the day after the Shaman held his ceremony.

That's still debatable.
The reason is that most media purchase their content from a larger press agency, in this case AFP.
They all reported on 12th but they did not all report the information in the exact same way.
The Australian link you cited earlier didn't report until 15th but it was same content and they probably purchase from same source.

 

[Ruthbullock]

a day is 24 hrs,
13-12= 1 day
12-11= 2 days
11-10= 3 day
10-9= 4 days.
The last search being 9th is contested in several media outlets.

Not in post-mortem terms- I know it fits your theory- but it’s just a twisting of the facts. If that was the case do you genuinely think her parents wouldn’t have asked the same question via their lawyer. By now it would have blown up into a massive story all over the Malaysian and British press.

 

[kittythehare]

Not in post-mortem terms- I know it fits your theory- but it’s just a twisting of the facts. If that was the case do you genuinely think her parents wouldn’t have asked the same question via their lawyer. By now it would have blown up into a massive story all over the Malaysian and British press.

I have no theory at all.
But 4 days is 4x 24 hr periods.
Autopsy language does not differ in that respect.
Her parents accept she died 4 days before she was found. There is no problem with that.
Where and why do you see me twisting facts to support what theory exactly?

ETA To a question raised by Sakthy Vell Saminathan, counsel for her family, she agreed that Nora had been dead four days before she was recovered
Nora Quoirin 'survived 6 days before dying of starvation in jungle' inquest told

 

[Ruthbullock]

I have no theory at all.
But 4 days is 4x 24 hr periods.
Autopsy language does not differ in that respect.
Her parents accept she died 4 days before she was found. There is no problem with that.
Where and why do you see me twisting facts to support what theory exactly?

You seem to be pushing the point she was dead but she wasn’t in-situ or the search party are lying and they didn’t search there that day- which are theories that would support the parents argument, so I think they would be screaming at their lawyer to highlight that point in the inquest.
ETA the article you just shared claims she survived six days- that also takes us past the last day of the search in that area. It’s like that brain teaser where you lose a day in the middle- but it’s not really as most people count the sunlight hours as a day and if you were somewhere from lunchtime Saturday to lunchtime Sunday it would be a two day holiday, not out for the day.

 

[Chiatos]

That's still debatable.
The reason is that most media purchase their content from a larger press agency, in this case AFP.
They all reported on 12th but they did not all report the information in the exact same way.
The Australian link you cited earlier didn't report until 15th but it was same content and they probably purchase from same source.

It was not of the same content. The Australian source specified the day of the week that the Shamans were present, being Monday.

I have been following the disappearance of Nora from the start and I vividly remember the day the Shamans performed their ritual.
Also that the day after, Nora's body was found. And I thought by myself: how convenient and what a coincidence.

That was a year ago, you can read back in the forum when the Shaman appeared and that Nora's body was found the next day.

 

[kittythehare]

You seem to be pushing the point she was dead but she wasn’t in-situ or the search party are lying and they didn’t search there that day- which are theories that would support the parents argument, so I think they would be screaming at their lawyer to highlight that point in the inquest.

I never suggested search party was lying. I cited several media reports, which is what we get to work with here giving conflicting reports of last date that area was searched.
The parents are victims.
I have never seen any record from any source suggesting her body was moved attributed to them.
I don't write the media reports, I just share them and quote them.
Until this morning I was unable to locate a date of the final search of that region. I've spent most of today searching for coherency.
I have no axe to grind here.
The child was dead for 4 days before her body was located. She died on the 9th of August in that case.

 

[kittythehare]

It was not of the same content. The Australian source specified the day of the week that the Shamans were present, being Monday.

I have been following the disappearance of Nora from the start and I vividly remember the day the Shamans performed their ritual.
Also that the day after, Nora's body was found. And I thought by myself: how convenient and what a coincidence.

That was a year ago, you can read back in the forum when the Shaman appeared and that Nora's body was found the next day.

The report of the shamans in ritual was a video shared by the local police with the media. It was undated.

 

[kittythehare]

Here's a lengthier report of Nora's toxicology
No drugs or pesticides detected in Nora Anne, inquest told

 

[Chiatos]

The report of the shamans in ritual was a video shared by the local police with the media. It was undated.

I suggest you to read thread #2 starting from page 1.