MaM a Year Later - Reconstruct the Crime

[Limaes]

Your interpretation of what happened differs from my opinion. Period. I know the defense objected to the method and protocols the FBI used. What lab did they find to do the testing? I'm interested.

Have you read the pretrial motions?

Yes I have read them. Have you?

To my knowledge the Defense never really looked for one.

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...40/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-16-2007Mar05.pdf

This link contains the FBI scientists valuable information regarding the EDTA test along with information proving the Defense had options regarding getting their own testing done.

It also contains the Judge's reasoning behind allowing the results to be presented to the jury along with information about the FBI not being the only qualified lab to perform the test and that the Defense had no interest in getting their own test.

Interestingly, he gives his decision on the Defense's request for financial help from public money to perform their own test. He denied it because the contract between between the defendant and his attorneys states that the attorneys foot the bill for any experts or testing once the money had run out and because the defendant had held u p his part of the contract, the Defense is obligated to do the same. I'm guessing that is the real reason the Defense wasn't interested in getting their own testing done.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I see you went and looked at SA's interviews between posts and now acknowledge him mentioning a note?

You asked a question and I gave you a few possible scenarios.

After looking back through this part of his interviews, something has occured to me that I hadn't thought of. She had been there several times, along with the female photographer before her. He was very familiar with their routine including writing down the vin # etc. Add this knowledge of SA's to the note found inside his trailer saying something about back to the patio door , I think it is within the realm of possibility that he left a similar note on the van right where he knew she was going to read it. It is something I am keeping on the table even though it is not needed to prove his guilt. Even SA doesn't deny speaking with her although he changes his story as to whether it was at his door or out by the van.

.
He didn't leave her any note on the car or anywhere else...

At 2136 hours, Det. REMIKER located a small notebook. When he began paging through the notebook, he found on the second piece of paper a cell phone number of 737-4731. We immediately recognized that phone number to be that of TERESA HALBACH.
On that same piece of paper were the words "back to patio door." That notebook was seized at 2136 hours.

CASO report, page 98.

 

[Limaes]

.
He didn't leave her any note on the car or anywhere else...

At 2136 hours, Det. REMIKER located a small notebook. When he began paging through the notebook, he found on the second piece of paper a cell phone number of 737-4731. We immediately recognized that phone number to be that of TERESA HALBACH.
On that same piece of paper were the words "back to patio door." That notebook was seized at 2136 hours.

CASO report, page 98.

I didn't say that he left the exact one they found in the book.

 

[missy1974]

I see you went and looked at SA's interviews between posts and now acknowledge him mentioning a note?

You asked a question and I gave you a few possible scenarios.

After looking back through this part of his interviews, something has occured to me that I hadn't thought of. She had been there several times, along with the female photographer before her. He was very familiar with their routine including writing down the vin # etc. Add this knowledge of SA's to the note found inside his trailer saying something about back to the patio door , I think it is within the realm of possibility that he left a similar note on the van right where he knew she was going to read it. It is something I am keeping on the table even though it is not needed to prove his guilt. Even SA doesn't deny speaking with her although he changes his story as to whether it was at his door or out by the van.

uhmmm go back and read the posts, I was clarifying for proudfootz that SA said he gave her a note and money. You posted "Was she reading the vin #? Or was she reading a note directing her to collect the money from SA's trailer?" And proudfootz was unclear, which lead me to believe that my post was unclear, so I clarified.

 

[Limaes]

The power of the press to make someone a hero or make them a scapegoat is frightening.

Ken Kratz's press conference is a good example of the danger of 'fake news' coming from the mainstream news outlets - which is far more insidious than the recent hysteria about websites read by a few hundred or so people. Because it's 'mainstream' people are lulled into a false sense of security that the information is accurate.

BBM

Well SA certainly utilised the power of the press didn't he? In fact he was attempting to taint a potential jury pool months before that press conference was held. If we're going to genuinely assess the scales of justice, its only right we don't sneak a finger on the scales imo.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

BBM

Well SA certainly utilised the power of the press didn't he? In fact he was attempting to taint a potential jury pool months before that press conference was held. If we're going to genuinely assess the scales of justice, its only right we don't sneak a finger on the scales imo.

.
Well, if he didn't scream it off the rooftops, who would have listened? The police? The judge? The jury?? Seriously, what would you do in his situation and your were innocent? Would you stay silent?

The whole reason why MaM was made is because what he was saying caught the attention of 2 Columbia graduate students.

 

[missy1974]

Yes I have read them. Have you?

To my knowledge the Defense never really looked for one.

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...40/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-16-2007Mar05.pdf

This link contains the FBI scientists valuable information regarding the EDTA test along with information proving the Defense had options regarding getting their own testing done.

It also contains the Judge's reasoning behind allowing the results to be presented to the jury along with information about the FBI not being the only qualified lab to perform the test and that the Defense had no interest in getting their own test.

Interestingly, he gives his decision on the Defense's request for financial help from public money to perform their own test. He denied it because the contract between between the defendant and his attorneys states that the attorneys foot the bill for any experts or testing once the money had run out and because the defendant had held u p his part of the contract, the Defense is obligated to do the same. I'm guessing that is the real reason the Defense wasn't interested in getting their own testing done.

BBM above. Absolutely, more than once actually.

So, the State would NOT foot the bill to do testing, right?

 

[missy1974]

.
He didn't leave her any note on the car or anywhere else...

At 2136 hours, Det. REMIKER located a small notebook. When he began paging through the notebook, he found on the second piece of paper a cell phone number of 737-4731. We immediately recognized that phone number to be that of TERESA HALBACH.
On that same piece of paper were the words "back to patio door." That notebook was seized at 2136 hours.

CASO report, page 98.

I was reading about those notebooks earlier today in Tyson's testimony. I didn't know there was more than one notebook (IIRC, there was 3), and they had multiple pages, with numbers, names, things written down (no specifics). But it was pointed out that her number was not the only number written down in them. I also didn't recall that her phone number and the 'back to patio door' were written in different ink colors, but he testified that they were. Tyson was the Lenk, Colborn, Remiker babysitter for the first few days. He was NOT the babysitter on the 8th, when the key was found in the bedroom.

My hubby keeps a small notepad in his pocket for phone numbers and info for work (he's an electrician), same thing... random numbers, that in a week, he will not know who they belonged too LOL

oh anddddd Tyson was asked about Zander Rd. LOL He didn't know what/where it was.

 

[Limaes]

BBM above. Absolutely, more than once actually.

So, the State would NOT foot the bill to do testing, right?

The State did foot the bill for the test. Anyone who has read them even once would see that the Defense were in a position where they could request a deadline for the test so they could have it reviewed by their own expert and assess if they wanted to go ahead with their own testing. They would not have had to pay for the actual test if they had have done this. As the Judge pointed out in his decision, it all boiled down to the Defense's timing of notifying the State that they were going to claim the blood was planted from that particular source. Of course the State was going to be rebutting this.

 

[Limaes]

.
Well, if he didn't scream it off the rooftops, who would have listened? The police? The judge? The jury?? Seriously, what would you do in his situation and your were innocent? Would you stay silent?

The whole reason why MaM was made is because what he was saying caught the attention of 2 Columbia graduate students.

Guilty people deny their crime all the time. He had his day in court and 10 years later the evidence is still standing. Not even 2 Columbia graduate students have been able to back up his (or their) protests of innocence.

 

[missy1974]

The State did foot the bill for the test. Anyone who has read them even once would see that the Defense were in a position where they could request a deadline for the test so they could have it reviewed by their own expert and assess if they wanted to go ahead with their own testing. They would not have had to pay for the actual test if they had have done this. As the Judge pointed out in his decision, it all boiled down to the Defense's timing of notifying the State that they were going to claim the blood was planted from that particular source. Of course the State was going to be rebutting this.

I disagree.

JMO

 

[Limaes]

I disagree.

JMO

Thats fine. But the facts in that link tell each side's point of view imo.

 

[robin8]

Guilty people deny their crime all the time. He had his day in court and 10 years later the evidence is still standing. Not even 2 Columbia graduate students have been able to back up his (or their) protests of innocence.

What would convince you of SA's innocence? If anything?

It comes across that no-one who believes SA's guilt can answer the questions or provide possible explanations regarding LE that I have asked a couple of times. But pro-SA supporters are constantly providing theories to explain and rationalise SA's behaviour... easier to explain perhaps?

 

[Limaes]

What would convince you of SA's innocence? If anything?

It comes across that no-one who believes SA's guilt can answer the questions or provide possible explanations regarding LE that I have asked a couple of times. But pro-SA supporters are constantly providing theories to explain and rationalise SA's behaviour... easier to explain perhaps?

A lot of things would have to be taken off the table for me to be convinced of his innocence.

What questions regarding LE?

Rationlising or, as I see it, making excuses for SA's behaviour, doesn't really mean anything unless it can be backed up by evidence. Without it, they're just theories imo.

 

[Limaes]

So far as 'reconstructing the crime' goes, the best clues seem to me to be the following:

A) blood splatter on the back door of the RAV4

B) tracking dogs follow Teresa's scent at the gravel pit

Both of these suggest to me the attack took place outdoors when Teresa was near her vehicle.

A) Considering Teresa was already bleeding prior to being put in the Rav 4, there is a high probability that it dripped off her hair rather than being projected at the time of injury imo.

B) Can you point me in the direction of your source stating Teresa's scent was picked up by the dogs at the gravel pit?

 

[proudfootz]

The following news story discusses some of the activities of tracking dogs:

MANITOWOC - After sheriff's deputies recovered Teresa Halbach's Toyota RAV4 on the Avery salvage yard property in early November 2005, signs of a grisly crime began to emerge — but not where you'd expect.


Less than a mile away, in northern Manitowoc County, authorities located blood. They recovered charred human bones. They hauled away a considerable amount of suspicious burnt material.

Surprisingly, none of this evidence came from their walled off 40-acre crime scene at Avery Road where Halbach's vehicle was found.


The clues were emerging around several nearby quarry sites. The Wisconsin State Crime Lab found flesh and blood at the Michels Materials quarry near State 147 and the east side of Avery Road, about a quarter-mile from the Avery salvage secured crime scene.
"We were told of three areas where cadaver dogs had been interested," state forensic scientist John Ertl testified at Steven Avery's trial in 2007. "There was a gravel yard, gravel quarry. And there was a maybe 30-foot-tall mound of gravel and sand. And about 6 to 8 feet up the pile, the dog got excited about something."


http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...arries-may-hold-key-halbachs-murder/91600464/

I consider the blood spatter on the door panel to be consistent with an attack, not dripping.

Impact stains, with corresponding flow
patterns, measuring 2mm to 6mm in size, were present on the.
interior panel of the rear door. These impact stains were
deposited in a pattern that suggests this blood was released or
thrown from a blood-bearing object in motion.

https://archive.org/stream/StevenAveryLabReport2/Steven%20Avery%20Lab%20Report%20-%202_djvu.txt

That, combined with the unidentified fingerprints in the back door suggests the attack occurred behind the RAV4 and Teresa was shoved in the back compartment. That the blood was cast off of an object would seem to indicate she was hit several times with a blunt object which cast off the blood.

 

[Limaes]

The following news story discusses some of the activities of tracking dogs:

MANITOWOC - After sheriff's deputies recovered Teresa Halbach's Toyota RAV4 on the Avery salvage yard property in early November 2005, signs of a grisly crime began to emerge — but not where you'd expect.


Less than a mile away, in northern Manitowoc County, authorities located blood. They recovered charred human bones. They hauled away a considerable amount of suspicious burnt material.

Surprisingly, none of this evidence came from their walled off 40-acre crime scene at Avery Road where Halbach's vehicle was found.


The clues were emerging around several nearby quarry sites. The Wisconsin State Crime Lab found flesh and blood at the Michels Materials quarry near State 147 and the east side of Avery Road, about a quarter-mile from the Avery salvage secured crime scene.
"We were told of three areas where cadaver dogs had been interested," state forensic scientist John Ertl testified at Steven Avery's trial in 2007. "There was a gravel yard, gravel quarry. And there was a maybe 30-foot-tall mound of gravel and sand. And about 6 to 8 feet up the pile, the dog got excited about something."


http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...arries-may-hold-key-halbachs-murder/91600464/

I consider the blood spatter on the door panel to be consistent with an attack, not dripping.

Impact stains, with corresponding flow
patterns, measuring 2mm to 6mm in size, were present on the.
interior panel of the rear door. These impact stains were
deposited in a pattern that suggests this blood was released or
thrown from a blood-bearing object in motion.

https://archive.org/stream/StevenAveryLabReport2/Steven%20Avery%20Lab%20Report%20-%202_djvu.txt

That, combined with the unidentified fingerprints in the back door suggests the attack occurred behind the RAV4 and Teresa was shoved in the back compartment. That the blood was cast off of an object would seem to indicate she was hit several times with a blunt object which cast off the blood.

None of those articles describes Teresa's scent being tracked to the quarry.

Re: the blood pattern on the cargo door. This is testimony from the blood pattern expert.

"A. Yes, I have seen these stains at other scenes
where -- where we assume that a bloody object was
being handled and that these stains -- or this
blood was -- was -- appeared to have been flung
off or released from a bloody object.

Q. Would that be consistent with a body with bloody
hair being put into the back of this vehicle?

Yes, it would. And in this particular case,
this -- these stains don't necessarily require
the -- the bloody hair component; however, it is consistent with a bloody object such as a body
being comploded (phonetic) into the rear end of
this vehicle.
"

He seems to believe the drops were flung from Teresa's hair or body as she was being placed in there. Makes sense imo.

 

[dexter75]

:laughing:

I have so much bookmarked, it's crazy! and google chrome was my saviour when my laptop died in the summer, I was able to log in to chrome and I still had them all! I learned quick to save all my "Avery files" in my online storage too ;-)

The stevenaverycase.org has made it super easy for me too, don't know what I would do without it!

I have mine saved & backed up too😉 Files, pictures of EVERYTHING! My memory on the other hand?..nothing like it once was and certainly nothing like yours😉
So glad to have you here❤

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[dexter75]

BBM above. Absolutely, more than once actually.

So, the State would NOT foot the bill to do testing, right?

I am curious. What is your opinion Missy?
Do you think ALL swabs should have been tested?
Do you think FBI should or should not had known WHY they were testing?
Personally I think they should have just tested ALL swabs NOT knowing the reason.
Still though...that test...idk.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[missy1974]

I am curious. What is your opinion Missy?
Do you think ALL swabs should have been tested?
Do you think FBI should or should not had known WHY they were testing?
Personally I think they should have just tested ALL swabs NOT knowing the reason.
Still though...that test...idk.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

I'm not sure about the test. I think that it is something that is not used or needed to be used enough. There are 3 on record that I know of, the OJ case, this case, and one other case, Cooper. The defense and the state seemed to agree that the doctor and the lab that was used in the Cooper case, was not a good option to do the testing, for either side. So outside of the FBI, I'm not sure who else could do the test.

On the surface, the problems I have with the test are that they only tested 3 (which happened to be the diluted swab ones), and that they didn't test to verify it was SA's blood. In LeBeau's testimony, he is very careful to say 'the swabs that were sent to me' all the time.

As for how the blood vial came about and was found by the defense before the State. Well, IMO, SA was saying from early on that they had his blood, LOTS of his blood, and if they didn't find it before Buting, too bad.... or maybe they should have called Colborn in to shake the box? :biggrin: And talking about LOTS of blood... where is this lots? According to the judge, SA should know where it is, and I'm surprised no one has asked him :facepalm: And then there is that email from KK to Culhane, where he comments that Wiegert is checking the blood to see if it is what it is. What blood? Thought they didn't find the blood? Is there more blood? If there were other tubes of blood taken from SA, where are they now? Did they contain EDTA too? or were they preserved with something else? What about the blood in his trailer?

And last but not least... for me, IMO, the volume of blood in that tube leaves me with questions! 10ml tube with 5.5ml of blood in it. 1ml was used up by the first lab. Stahlke's estimate of the blood stains to be 1-2ml's, but natural blood drops are .05ml's.:thinking:

Lots of questions, and this is just the beginning!


Dexter ~~~~~~ I pulled one of your stunts... I started this post this morning and ended up leaving before I finished LOL Came back and went oh shoot haha