MaM a Year Later - Reconstruct the Crime

[Safeguard]

What I don't get about the whole "lured" idea, is that no rape and torture ever occurred in SA's home or garage.

So where was she lured to? And for what? We have ZERO evidence that TH was raped & tortured. We have only a fantasy story made up by a mentally disturbed, sexually deviant prosecutor.

The whole theory of, "He felt he was "owed a *free* rape", kinda depends on a rape having taken place no?
IIRC that was first circulated by Jody, ( the "SA is angry at all women, and feels he is owed a rape" thing... (He feels is owed a rape AND a murder?, And he is NOT angry at men? especially LE?).

IMO Jody is the definition of opportunistic user. When SA stood to gain bank, she needed a place to live and party, and was dependent on SA's mom to pick her up from jail, give her rides to her PO appointments and what not...She was singing their praises. As soon as that pitiful gravy train dried up, she stabbed them in their backs, correctly accessing that more lucrative opportunities lay in that direction. I don't doubt that she was in a mutually abusive relationship, I DO doubt that it will be her last one. That girl is a Hot Mess. I am not lending credibility to anything she says at this point.

Personally, I feel TH was killed during the course of what, for her, started out a normal work day. If anything was unsettling to TH she certainly didn't sound like it in the rather pleasant sounding, if professional, VM she left. Who ever was blowing up her phone with unwanted calls is worthy of more scrutiny imo, but that issue scarcely raises an eyebrow?

Couple that with the fact that someone deleted her VM's and a LOT of people KNEW her scheduled for the day and there are any number of possible scenario's for what could've happened to her, SA is not even near the top that list, in my mind.

 

[Limaes]

sorry, working backwards today LOL I posted this in my last post, but will post it here too.

Dawn herself acknowledged knowing the Janda's were basically the Avery's in her Nov 3rd interview. This really was not a big secret IMO and the AVERY RD. address is the giveaway, isn't it?

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=20

Did Teresa park her car in SA's driveway, or even in front of his trailer? Or did she she park across from the address she was given?

 

[Limaes]

You have a lot of questions here LOL I am going to try to respond to some of them



His purposeful intent was to protect his privacy. Which I can imagine may have been important to him in light of being exonerated 2 years previous and recently filing a law suit against the county. He was still in the news, laws in his name were being passed, lawsuit being filed. It makes sense to me that he wouldn't block his number when calling businesses or lawyers or government agencies, most reputable businesses, like AT, wouldn't share that phone number, would they?




AT is a business, and he knew exactly who he was calling, no need to block it IMO. I don't think he ever spoke with her when he called because the calls weren't long enough. 2 of his calls to her registered as duration of Zero seconds, one registered as 7.2 seconds. The last call was not blocked, but IMO, it's possible that the 3rd call he was confident that it was the 'photographers' phone number and was not concerned for his privacy. It's also JMO, but like I have posted previously, he had her number written down, in 2 spots actually, but there was no identifying info with it.... no "photographer", no "AutoTrader", nothing, just a number, and if he was unsure if it was her #, blocking his number to call a random number to protect his privacy is not that out of the ordinary, again IMO.

As for what was and was not said and relayed to/from AutoTrader, I suggest you read the police report and then the testimony of Dawn Pliszka. Her "story" changes too, from she knew the Janda's were basically the Avery's (the day TH was reported missing she was interviewed), too not having a clue who Janda's were (at trial).
Here is a direct link to the report. Here is a direct link to her testimony.




Barb was working that day. She was not able to be there. Through some of the statements we have available, Barb wanted the van for the boys and thought it was a waste of money to put it into AutoTrader, Steve thought it was a piece of junk and thought he could sell it and get something better for the boys to drive (paraphrased and is just the gist of it from the various statements we have from Barb, Steve and the Dassey boys) Barb, like your husband was at work, so Steve called AutoTrader for her, it was her van, so why not put it in her name? Did you put the ad in your name or your husbands? I agree it probably doesn't matter (unless there are maybe tax laws about buying/selling vehicles and there is a limit to them, before it becomes a business?) AFAIK the van was not sold, it was still there on the 4th, the ad would not have run in AutoTrader, no for sale sign that I'm aware of, but then, not sure why it would have one when it was sitting near their homes and not in the Salvage Yard or near the entrance to the salvage yard. I am not sure if they took it as evidence or not?

She had an earlier appointment that day too where the person calling was not the person she met with, it seems to me that it is probably pretty common with a job like TH's where she is going out on business days and most people work mon-friday during the day. Actually she had more than 1 if we include the Zipperers, she saw and spoke to Mrs. Z but it wasn't Mrs. Z that made the appointment. If we ask Mr. Z.... he didn't either :scared: but that's a different story LOL




I agree that it's hard to believe that there is no reliable test. But guess what? I can't seem to find one LOL The FBI did do the testing for the OJ case, but then, there was issues with that test, and when it was peer reviewed after (or was it during the trial?) they found some errors IIRC. In 2006, there was one other lab that could have possibly tested it, but I think there was some issues with that lab as well, and the credibility of the Dr. and the test. I think proudfootz brought up a valid point too.... the defense did not have unlimited resources like the State did. The defense couldn't go to the FBI like the State did and ask them to do the testing.

I found this a few months ago, and it's a great start to understanding it from a legal standpoint. He also talks about the other lab that may have been able to test the blood, but how the test was inadmissable in another case. AFAIK, it was only used 2 times, the OJ case, and the SA case.
Part 1 http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...verymaking-a-murderercase-a-lot-has-been.html
Part 2 http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...dta-evidence-used-in-the-steven-averymak.html
Part 3 http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...a-murderercase-prior-posts-here-and-here.html

[/QUOTE]

I thought this had already been covered before. The defense had absolutely no interest in having the blood tested themselves until the trial had already started and the State's results were in. In fact, they attempted to block the State's testing of the blood. I thought I posted a link for you previously explaining the review and change in procedures since the OJ trial (which was 10 yrs prior) and why it is now courtroom approved.

 

[Limaes]

On further reflection about this so-called 'luring' plan - how would Auto Trader know who the 'photographer who was here before' be if they didn't know where 'here' was?

Dawn Pliszka testified that she talked to Teresa on the phone that day and that Teresa knew it was the Avery brothers place she was going to.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...449/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf

page 80

Teresa Halbach was the only photographer for that area. I guess that is how they knew.

Going to the Avery Auto Salvage and knowing you're meeting up with only SA are not the same thing imo.

 

[proudfootz]

SA hid his identity from TH. This is undisputable.

Not true on both counts.

I see zero evidence that Steven tried to fool anyone.

Dawn who took the call at Auto Traders knew it was a man calling.

He never gave a false name, or tried to pretend to be a woman, or Barb, or Tom, Dick, or Harry.

If any of his calls to Teresa had connected she'd know it was a man, and probably even recognize his voice since they'd done business already.

Steven knew he could have contacted her directly without leaving a trail for everyone in the county to see.

No evidence of 'luring'.

SA supporters have come up with an excuse that once again, casts SA as the poor victim and Teresa as the bad one who would abuse the privilege, that is only bestowed upon a chosen few, even though she most likely already had his number.

No one has claimed Teresa was a bad person, have they?

I wouldn't doubt that Teresa had his number, and he had hers. If he wanted her to come over, he didn't need to go through Auto Traders. Steven only needed Auto Traders because they wanted to sell a van.

At the time that Teresa left the message around 11.30am, she did not know where she was going. Perhaps you didn't know this because MaM cut that part of the vm out. The full recording can easily be found through google if you're interested in listening to it in its entirety.

I know all about the voice mail message said to have been left on Janda's answering machine.

Curiously, even though she'd been there several times before, had the address on the contact sheet, she still couldn't find the place?

It's the only place on Avery Road!

All the same, Dawn testified under oath that Teresa knew she was going to the Avery brothers place, and no one has indicated she was at any time confused about who lived at the Avery Salvage Yard.

 

[missy1974]

Did Teresa park her car in SA's driveway, or even in front of his trailer? Or did she she park across from the address she was given?

How about you provide a link that shows where she parked? Did she park in Barb's driveway? Did she knock on Barb's door? Do you recall where the van was parked? She knew what vehicle she was going to photograph, it's in the lead form.

 

[Limaes]

bbm

That was way out of line. Even for you. Suggesting some people's possible reasons for using call block to protect their number as a matter of privacy, is in no way related to the other party being a "Bad person who would abuse the privilege" but you know that Limaes, your just being a jerk. I seriously don't know why your passive aggressive bs is tolerated. But I am SO done with you.

Stating that SA hid his number from Teresa to protect his privacy then stating he didn't hide it from reputable businesses who wouldn't share it is basically saying that she was not a reputable business and was not trustworthy. She didn't go around photographing cars as a hobby.

 

[missy1974]

I thought this had already been covered before. The defense had absolutely no interest in having the blood tested themselves until the trial had already started and the State's results were in. In fact, they attempted to block the State's testing of the blood. I thought I posted a link for you previously explaining the review and change in procedures since the OJ trial (which was 10 yrs prior) and why it is now courtroom approved.

There is a big difference in having no interest and having no resources and no reliable lab to do the test.

Again, can you provide me with a link that shows any lab that has done the test, it was peer reviewed and used in a court of law and is considered reliable? You can't use the FBI because that resource is NOT available to the public or a defendant.

If you posted a link for me, I'm sure I would recall. Feel free to share it again.

 

[proudfootz]

Stating that SA hid his number from Teresa to protect his privacy then stating he didn't hide it from reputable businesses who wouldn't share it is basically saying that she was not a reputable business and was not trustworthy. She didn't go around photographing cars as a hobby.

I'm afraid you missed this whole paragraph about why Steven might be unsure who he was calling on that day:

AT is a business, and he knew exactly who he was calling, no need to block it IMO. I don't think he ever spoke with her when he called because the calls weren't long enough. 2 of his calls to her registered as duration of Zero seconds, one registered as 7.2 seconds. The last call was not blocked, but IMO, it's possible that the 3rd call he was confident that it was the 'photographers' phone number and was not concerned for his privacy. It's also JMO, but like I have posted previously, he had her number written down, in 2 spots actually, but there was no identifying info with it.... no "photographer", no "AutoTrader", nothing, just a number, and if he was unsure if it was her #, blocking his number to call a random number to protect his privacy is not that out of the ordinary, again IMO.

 

[missy1974]

Stating that SA hid his number from Teresa to protect his privacy then stating he didn't hide it from reputable businesses who wouldn't share it is basically saying that she was not a reputable business and was not trustworthy. She didn't go around photographing cars as a hobby.

Which part of "I do not think he knew for sure it was her number" did you not understand? Maybe I can explain it better for you?

That's just my own personal thought. I have no idea why he did or didn't use *67. We are having a discussion about why someone would use it and why do we think he would use it. Casting SA as a victim.... whether you want to admit it or not, he was wrongfully convicted. He was in the news. He was suing the County, and yes, no matter what bad things he had ever done in his life, he was a victim of the system created in Manitowoc and the thought of him protecting his privacy when calling a random number he was unsure of who was at the other end, is reasonable in many peoples eyes, not just mine.

JMO

 

[Limaes]

Not true on both counts.

I see zero evidence that Steven tried to fool anyone.

Dawn who took the call at Auto Traders knew it was a man calling.

He never gave a false name, or tried to pretend to be a woman, or Barb, or Tom, Dick, or Harry.

If any of his calls to Teresa had connected she'd know it was a man, and probably even recognize his voice since they'd done business already.

Steven knew he could have contacted her directly without leaving a trail for everyone in the county to see.

No evidence of 'luring'.



No one has claimed Teresa was a bad person, have they?

I wouldn't doubt that Teresa had his number, and he had hers. If he wanted her to come over, he didn't need to go through Auto Traders. Steven only needed Auto Traders because they wanted to sell a van.



I know all about the voice mail message said to have been left on Janda's answering machine.

Curiously, even though she'd been there several times before, had the address on the contact sheet, she still couldn't find the place?

It's the only place on Avery Road!

All the same, Dawn testified under oath that Teresa knew she was going to the Avery brothers place, and no one has indicated she was at any time confused about who lived at the Avery Salvage Yard.

I'm not talking about his call to AT or his conversation with Dawn. I am talking about his calls directly to Teresa where he hid his number.

No one said she couldn't find the place. There is more than one home on Avery rd. The paperwork would have lead her to believe that she was being requested there by B.Janda at the house next door, not S.Avery.

 

[missy1974]

Here is something interesting I found this afternoon. I'm not sure we've discussed this before?

http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/cons-protect/buy-sell-veh/unlicensedcardealers.aspx

People who sell their own vehicles when they are done with them do not need a Wisconsin dealer license. However, any person or business that sells more than five vehicles per year must have a dealer license issued by the Wisconsin Department of Transportation (WisDOT).


This would be one reason why SA wouldn't want the vehicle attached to his name at all, in addition to the fact that it really wasn't his vehicle, it was Barb's. I believe it was in Jodi's interviews that she said he liked to buy and sell vehicles to supplement his income.

 

[missy1974]

I'm not talking about his call to AT or his conversation with Dawn. I am talking about his calls directly to Teresa where he hid his number.

No one said she couldn't find the place. There is more than one home on Avery rd. The paperwork would have lead her to believe that she was being requested there by B.Janda at the house next door, not S.Avery.

Which brings up a good point. She had no reason whatsoever to go to Steven Avery's door that day. That was not the address she was given. If she was going to go to anyone's door, it would have been Barb's.

 

[Limaes]

How about you provide a link that shows where she parked? Did she park in Barb's driveway? Did she knock on Barb's door? Do you recall where the van was parked? She knew what vehicle she was going to photograph, it's in the lead form.

Yep. It is in BoD's interviews (CASO reports). She parked directly across from the Dassey's driveway facing west. The van was parked at the edge of the Dassey's property. It is unknown if she knocked on BJ's door. What is known is that she was last seen walking towards SA's trailer, whether it was from the direction of the van or the Dassey's is not clear.

 

[missy1974]

Yep. It is in BoD's interviews (CASO reports). She parked directly across from the Dassey's driveway facing west. The van was parked at the edge of the Dassey's property. It is unknown if she knocked on BJ's door. What is known is that she was last seen walking towards SA's trailer, whether it was from the direction of the van or the Dassey's is not clear.

According to Bobby?

And why would she go to SA's if she had Barb's address not his? That makes no sense. I wonder when she went to photograph Tom Janda's car in September if she went to SA's house too. :thinking:

ETA: Bobby was actually completely off my radar, now I'm not so sure. There was no reason for TH to knock on SA's door that day. She should have knocked on Barb's door.

 

[IDK]

So to those who believe using *67 indicates that SA was "luring" TH to the salvage yard, please explain this. If Theresa had answered the call, how would Steven have continued his "luring" behavior? Do you feel he would have disguised his voice? Pretended to be someone else? Or as Missy theorized (which I think is quite possible), would he have just confirmed whose number he was calling?

How would he have conducted the call? I'm interested in what you have to say. IMO, it would have been something completely innocent such as "Hello, is this Ms. Halbach? Steve Avery here, just confirming your appointment at the salvage yard this afternoon."

 

[missy1974]

So to those who believe using *67 indicates that SA was "luring" TH to the salvage yard, please explain this. If Theresa had answered the call, how would Steven have continued his "luring" behavior? Do you feel he would have disguised his voice? Pretended to be someone else? Or as Missy theorized (which I think is quite possible), would he have just confirmed whose number he was calling?

How would he have conducted the call? I'm interested in what you have to say. IMO, it would have been something completely innocent such as "Hello, is this Ms. Halbach? Steve Avery here, just confirming your appointment at the salvage yard this afternoon."

I don't think he would have even said Ms. Halbach, or even Teresa. IMO he would have said 'the auto trader photographer'. He didn't even know her name. Even when being interviewed days later, a cop said Teresa to him and he said "who?".

 

[proudfootz]

I'm not talking about his call to AT or his conversation with Dawn. I am talking about his calls directly to Teresa where he hid his number.

No one said she couldn't find the place. There is more than one home on Avery rd. The paperwork would have lead her to believe that she was being requested there by B.Janda at the house next door, not S.Avery.

In the message purportedly left on Janda's answering machine has Teresa saying this:

"I don't have your address or anything..."

Which we know isn't true - Steven provided the address, it is on the call sheet, and Teresa reportedly told Dawn she knew she was headed for Avery Salvage.

 

[missy1974]

In the message purportedly left on Janda's answering machine has Teresa saying this:

"I don't have your address or anything..."

Which we know isn't true - Steven provided the address, it is on the call sheet, and Teresa reportedly told Dawn she knew she was headed for Avery Salvage.

The calls to and from AutoTrader that morning with all involved is like a puzzle. IMO what happened was:

SA calls AutoTrader around 8-8:30 that morning.

AutoTrader (Dawn) calls TH and leaves a message asking if she can make it that day and leaves the phone number of the client (Barb's number).

TH wakes up late that morning, listens to her messages and gets the message from Dawn.

TH calls AutoTrader back, Dawn is out having lunch, and talks to Angela (I think she is the supervisor at AutoTrader). TH tells Angela that yes, she can do the shoot today and to have Dawn fax her the lead form when she gets back.

In the mean time, TH calls the number that Dawn left on her voicemail (this is the message we hear reportedly from Barb's answering machine).

At some point, Steven said he called AutoTrader back and he was told that yes, she would be able to make it that day. This call doesn't show on his cell phone, so he must have called from his house phone?

Dawn faxes the information to TH, TH has this information in hand before leaving to do her AutoTrader shots for the day. This is why TH didn't need a call back, she had the information, probably saw the address and whether TH had been to the Salvage Yard or not yet, she knew it was the Avery brothers because of the address when she talked to Dawn later that afternoon.

The lead form that was faxed to TH from AutoTrader that day is the 1st page at this link:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...nd-362-Auto-Trader-Appt-and-Phone-Records.pdf

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Just throwing this out there. Here is what is the problem related to "proper court proceedings" and some good examples of why they just didn't happen in this case.
bbm

Steve Moore; (FBI terrorist hunter, helicopter pilot, certified sniper),


"The reason Kratz would talk about the details of Teresa begging for her life before being raped, but not answer a question on DNA is because he knew he had no DNA evidence. Period. And as attorney Dean Strang so correctly noted, poisoning the jury pool with Dassey’s alleged confession, and then not calling him to testify was a brilliant move because it got the statement “in,” but made it impossible to cross-examine Dassey on the ‘confession. Innuendo and false testimony is not how jury trials are supposed to work. At least not since the late 1600’s in Salem, Massachusetts."

RULES OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE 101

"So where is the murder scene? When reporters asked Ken Kratz why he had not brought up the murder scene in trial, I was absolutely dumbstruck at his answer. He said that he was going to explain all that "...in closing arguments." Whiskey tango foxtrot? Closing arguments do not introduce new evidence, and are not evidence in and of themselves. A closing argument can only refer to evidence that has already been placed into the trial. What Kratz was admitting was that he had not a single shred of evidence to prove where the murder was carried out. But apparently that wasn't going to keep him from telling the jury where it was, without evidence of any kind. To put forward a theory of how the crime could have happened, without providing evidence for the conclusion(s) is appalling. If the judge allowed that, well... I have no words...

Where does this leave us? Kratz doesn't know where the murder occurred, he probably suspects that using Brendan Dassey as a prosecution witness would be disastrous, and continues to try to make a criminal case against a defendant without the use of reliable or convincing evidence--and has no explanation for why the evidence was not found. But I can tell you one thing the evidence proves to me; regardless of who killed Teresa Halbach (even if it turns out it was Steven Avery), she was not killed in Avery's garage or trailer.

"The fact that Judge Willis wouldn't even give a jury instruction regarding Dassey’s ‘confession’ in light of the March 2nd presser, makes me wonder how anybody could get a fair trial in those counties as long as Kratz is prosecuting and Willis is on the bench.""

http://gmancasefile.com/moore-to-th...erer-an-fbi-agents-take-episode-6-part-2-of-3

Interesting. However, unless the law has changed recently 'where' is not even an element any Prosecutor is legally required to prove in any murder case. Prosecutors are allowed in closings to give/offer their theory based on the evidence presented during the trial. They usually layout what they think happened. No one really knows exactly what happened except the murderer themselves and they rarely open up about all the particulars, step by step. This case has been upheld on appeal twice. If Kratz legally erred the two courts would have seen it.

Where do you think she was murdered?

I am not sure what this man means when he said they had no DNA?

I don't think 'where' it specifically happened means that much since they aren't required by law to prove where a murder was committed. Like I said, the DA can offer his/her theory of the case to the jury and what they think transpired including where. We all know openings and closings aren't evidence. We painfully learned that all too well in the CA case when Baez said a boatload of BS and never backed one bit of it up with irrefutable evidence during the trial.

The evidence points to SA even if the 'where' remains unknown because his blood was found in the murdered victim's car. Other defendants have been convicted on less evidence than this DA entered into SAs trial. How would they get his DNA profile to plant it on the hood latch? This wasn't blood. Most likely it was his sweat or skin cells if his scalp brushed the hood latch.

Madeleine74 was nice enough to give me the timeline of his phone calls. Those are extremely suspicious to me. Very, even more so now, since Madeleine said his sister said she did not want to sell her van. He did it conveniently at a time when his sister was at work. He was using the ruse his sister wanted to sell her van when she did not in order to get TH there on his property. He calls TH twice blocking his number but doesn't block it on his last call much later. Imo, he knew he didn't have to block his number then because he knew she wasn't ever going to pick up the phone again for anyone and was dead. Imo, he was ignorant enough to think they wouldn't be able to get the information about his two blocked calls that were made to only TH the day she was murdered. He thought the only one they would see is where he called her and did not block it that time. Imo, he was trying to set it up as if he thought she was still alive but he knew differently, imo.

I don't want you to think I am trying to change your mind Safeguard or anyone else's for that matter nor am I trying to argue with anyone either. I know you all sincerely believe what you believe based on your extensive research and in the end you all could be right. I just don't see anything that shows me he was innocently convicted of TH's murder. If they find EDTA in the blood found of his in her vehicle then I will certainly change my mind in a heartbeat but honestly I don't think it was planted nor tainted with EDTA either.

You know me well enough to know if I thought he was truly innocent and had been framed I would be supporting him all the way along with the rest of you. I really have tried to rationalize many things away and its just not doable for me at least. If there were procedural errors in the trial then I have no problem with him getting a new trial even excluding Dassey's confession. I still think he will be convicted with the evidence they have. The DA may even present more evidence this time than was entered in the first trial. Most DAs do not enter every piece of evidence they amassed during the investigation nor do they call every one to testify who was on the witness list.

Its been nice discussing the case with all of you. We have 38 people coming to our home by noon tomorrow to celebrate Christmas. We have had company coming in and out ever since Christmas Eve but this is our big meal where our family and friends will be here at one time. I have been cooking for three days straight, and still have a couple of things left to do in the morning so to say I am bone tired is an understatement.

Goodnight everyone! Take care.