MaM a Year Later - Reconstruct the Crime

[dexter75]

Would one of the SA advocates please be so kind as to explain to me your theory on why SA would block his phone number when calling TH on the very day she was murdered? Did he block his number when he called others that day? TIA

After working in the corporate world for over 30 years and then as a business owner myself for 16 year from 1993-2009 before retiring... I have never heard of anyone (me included) with a legitimate business blocking their phone number from being seen.. Especially when they are calling someone about a service they specifically had requested from the person they were calling. I could possibly understand if SA was collecting an outstanding debt owed by the one he called but that was not the case here. Why do you think he asked for TH specifically that day? Had he called before asking for TH to come out?

Since this case has come up again, I have asked numerous friends who own businesses the same question, and they look at me very puzzled, but all of them said they would not do such a thing nor have they ever done so and said they have never had a reason to do so. They kept saying 'why would anyone do that?' They couldn't come up with any logical reason/explanation why a business owner wouldn't want their number seen and neither can I. So that is why I am asking any of you what you think as to the rational reason why he did this. Its just been one of things among others that has never made any sense to me.

Like I said earlier, IMO, the vast majority of jurors tend to not believe in mere coincidences especially when it come in the form of evidence entered at trial. I have been a juror on five different criminal cases including one death penalty case for double murder. I have tried to rationalize this away for awhile now but I am still unable to do so when applying logic and commonsense. I just cant chalk the call blocking up as being benign or a mere coincidence when applying rational thought processes to it. Everything SA did the very day TH was murdered has great relevance like in all cases and each piece had a purposeful intent behind it, imo. It takes thought and physical actions to hit *69 or whatever the number he used to hide who is calling and didn't he do this twice or do I have that wrong? If it happened twice that is even more relevant. JMO though

I will never forget ADA Rick Distaso's words he told the jury in his closing during the Scott Peterson trial. . "Just how many coincidences are you willing to believe and still be able to call yourselves reasonable people?"

I think about those words when I think of this case.

One more thing
My brother in law is slow. Sweet as can be but kinda slow. Not very confident or good looking. His interpersonal skills SUCK, he was in special education classes growing up and even had some anger issues as a teenager.
He has friends now, a great job an active member in his church and is 30 years old.
I can absolutely 100% guarantee you that he #67 his calls to girls..especially girls he finds attractive or he might get red in the face around. I'd bet on it & just might ask him😉 I'm honest & in your face that way😀❤😉
It isn't uncommon
Especially when you have zero social skills, etiquette, etc.
JMO
Thanks, for being so polite btw
You're very considerate and respectful.
Thank you❤

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[dexter75]

This has come up before. IIRC, SA was known to *67 due to the notoriety he had. Maybe he was a tad paranoid?

However, since he himself, was calling, do you assume he was attempting to hide his identity? What happens after TH answers?

Why does it seem as though any amount of, "coincidences" errors mistakes... on the part of the officials, are all just innocent little things that could happen to just anyone in LE, but that *67 call signifies devious intent?

I find it impossible to believe SA had this planned. ( easier to think he might have snapped, but I doubt it)...

This guy planned this murder, and lured TH to her doom, and he had this all carefully thought out...

And so he thinks a week, or so, before he wins a huge settlement is THE perfect day to commit his master crime? And further, he announces, like the town crier, that THIS GIRL WILL BE AT MY HOUSE THIS AFTERNOON?

Make sense of that for me if you will...

He could have waited till he had bocou bucks and called an escort for additional stealth, if he had this rape/murder planned out since he was in the joint, like some here keep professing....


I have seen it put this way, and I must agree:

"We don't have context of how often he used *67 on outgoing calls. If he habitually dialed *67, perhaps because he was in the media spotlight for the lawsuit against the county, then this instance of *67 is a lot less incriminating".

Hey doll😘
Well put!
Why is LE let off with " innocent mistakes?"
Great points, as always❤
Yep, if I were going to cuff, rape, torture my regular photographer in between my gf's phone calls and my own personal errands, I would sure as heck do it BEFORE I BECAME A MULTI MILLIONAIRE ( true or not, it's what he thought ) & not AFTER I HAD MILLIONS TO FLEE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY AND GET AWAY WITH IT FOREVER...
Another great point..go rent a bdsm ..why risk it all after being in prison that whole time??
C'mon Manitowoc County??
How did you ever think this story wouldn't be told??

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[robin8]

love this thread guys, so many good points being discussed :seeya:

I usually have a load of questions about this case that make me doubt SA's guilt, four new questions have come up since I caught up on the thread.

The motion in August - why if you were guilty, if you knew what you had done that night and had already served years in prison.... would you spend god knows how much of your own money on scientific testing to prove your innocence? Would you not keep that money? Would you not think of the embarrassment you would cause your family, who have supported you, when this testing does just prove your guilt? Which is a risk no? If you are guilty.

Phone records - We are spending so many hours talking about the phone records for SA and the 'suspicious' behaviour of blocking his number on 2 occasions. But have we spent any time looking at another person involved in this case who may have had motive and displayed odd records. RH - why dial in to voicemails and delete them? why have 22 calls from LE? If phone records are argued to be decisive in determining guilt, what does this behaviour say?

Photos of cows - Got to love cows! Where is the camera? If this was found and had those photos on, surely that is important?

Why TH? - If SA is smart enough to plan all this because he is a cold-blooded killer, nothing more and nothing less.. why be so public? why go through a business? Surely a smarter person would maybe drive into town and pick up a girl in a bar or something, something less traceable. Less able to be linked to them, especially if they are already known to LE and in the public eye somewhat.

Anywho, JMO but everything I read just seems to add more questions...

 

[dexter75]

Oceanblueeyes
Why do you feel Steve Avery is a " raging psychopath " from an early age? What is this based on?
I'm also hearing you say " society owes him a rape " in his eye's.
Why?
Because he was wrongfully convicted you think he feels he should rape a person?
A rapist is made?
Some sort of vigilante rapist?
And asking about the #67 thing and your business friends..no one sees the reason for it or something similar...what about Avery first calling Auto Trader?
Seriously, ask them..or something to ponder if you haven't already. ( maybe you have & have a great explanation I have yet to hear )

Why would a psychopathic rapist..premeditate his ultimate revenge rape, torture, murder on a girl he's KNOWN TO HAVE THE " HOTS " FOR... someone so methodical he bought the cuffs, weeks prior.
He used #67 to BLOCK HIS NUMBER
He used Barbs name..

But..CALLED AUTO TRADER??
Why would this cold hearted psycho call the business to say " could ya send that girl out???" If he were trying so hard to be calculating and deceitful?
One can't help but to wonder.

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[dexter75]

IMO
Culhane is a joke!
She is a disgrace to lab techs every where and to stand behind/beside her speaks VOLUMES about ones moral ethics & character.

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[dexter75]

Does Buting have a history of not being truthful, Limaes?

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[dexter75]

Proudfootz, I'm so glad to have you on board❤
My signal out here is iffy and replys are in a random order, this post sums it up.
Each and every response #149 incase it's all jumbled up when I hit send😉

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[dexter75]

KZ is not evidence. KZ's statements are not evidence. Not even KZ would claim they were. Evidence that proves SA's innocence to a supreme court judicial panel is required to get SA out of prison. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or believes on either side.

Pretty sure after a year of being told what's evidence..the state must prove their case, and so forth, we completely understand😉
Thanks. again. though.

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[Madeleine74]

IMO
Culhane is a joke!
She is a disgrace to lab techs every where and to stand behind/beside her speaks VOLUMES about ones moral ethics & character.

No one thought Culhane was a joke or accused her moral ethics and character when she ran the DNA test and was able to show, scientifically, that SA was not the known contributor of the DNA found on Penny Beerstein, the defacto test that got Avery out of prison from the wrongful rape conviction.

So in 2006, after a bullet and a bullet fragment are found in SA's garage, collected, and sent to her for testing, she runs a test on the control sample, which is the protocol. She finds some of her own DNA on the control sample (not the bullet, just the control). She then tests the bullet. She proactively discloses, in writing, her findings, both about finding her own DNA on the control sample which she had inadvertently contaminated, and then the results from testing the bullet itself, which did not contain her DNA and showed no contamination.

And for doing this, disclosing a contaminated control sample, she is described as a "disgrace to lab techs everywhere" and her "moral ethics" and "character" are questioned.

 

[dexter75]

No one thought Culhane was a joke or accused her moral ethics and character when she ran the DNA test and was able to show, scientifically, that SA was not the known contributor of the DNA found on Penny Beerstein, the defacto test that got Avery out of prison from the wrongful rape conviction.

So in 2006, after a bullet and a bullet fragment are found in SA's garage, collected, and sent to her for testing, she runs a test on the control sample, which is the protocol. She finds some of her own DNA on the control sample (not the bullet, just the control). She then tests the bullet. She proactively discloses, in writing, her findings, both about finding her own DNA on the control sample which she had inadvertently contaminated, and then the results from testing the bullet itself, which did not contain her DNA and showed no contamination.

And for doing this, disclosing a contaminated control sample, she is described as a "disgrace to lab techs everywhere" and her "moral ethics" and "character" are questioned.

Welp,
Say whatcha want and make assumptions for whoever " no one " was..
IMO, she's a joke😉

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[dexter75]

love this thread guys, so many good points being discussed :seeya:

I usually have a load of questions about this case that make me doubt SA's guilt, four new questions have come up since I caught up on the thread.

The motion in August - why if you were guilty, if you knew what you had done that night and had already served years in prison.... would you spend god knows how much of your own money on scientific testing to prove your innocence? Would you not keep that money? Would you not think of the embarrassment you would cause your family, who have supported you, when this testing does just prove your guilt? Which is a risk no? If you are guilty.

Phone records - We are spending so many hours talking about the phone records for SA and the 'suspicious' behaviour of blocking his number on 2 occasions. But have we spent any time looking at another person involved in this case who may have had motive and displayed odd records. RH - why dial in to voicemails and delete them? why have 22 calls from LE? If phone records are argued to be decisive in determining guilt, what does this behaviour say?

Photos of cows - Got to love cows! Where is the camera? If this was found and had those photos on, surely that is important?

Why TH? - If SA is smart enough to plan all this because he is a cold-blooded killer, nothing more and nothing less.. why be so public? why go through a business? Surely a smarter person would maybe drive into town and pick up a girl in a bar or something, something less traceable. Less able to be linked to them, especially if they are already known to LE and in the public eye somewhat.

Anywho, JMO but everything I read just seems to add more questions...

All fabulous and logical questions, Robin8😘

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[Madeleine74]

If Culhane "is a joke," then her testing of the blood that exonerated SA and testing of the pubic hair that pointed, scientifically, to Gregory Allen was also "a joke."

Culhane is hated now because the DNA test on the bullet itself showed DNA of TH on it. Had the test come back showing no DNA or inconclusive DNA match on the bullet, Culhane would not be denigrated by Avery supporters.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

If Culhane "is a joke," then her testing of the blood that exonerated SA and testing of the pubic hair that pointed, scientifically, to Gregory Allen was also "a joke."

Culhane is hated now because the DNA test on the bullet itself showed DNA of TH on it. Had the test come back showing no DNA or inconclusive DNA match on the bullet, Culhane would not be denigrated by Avery supporters.

Excellent post. I find it strange that a person who's work helped free SA from prison is vilified when her work points towards his guilt in TH's murder. Am I to distrust the lab results that freed SA because Culhane is such a horrible person? JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Oceanblueeyes
Why do you feel Steve Avery is a " raging psychopath " from an early age? What is this based on?
I'm also hearing you say " society owes him a rape " in his eye's.
Why?
Because he was wrongfully convicted you think he feels he should rape a person?
A rapist is made?
Some sort of vigilante rapist?
And asking about the #67 thing and your business friends..no one sees the reason for it or something similar...what about Avery first calling Auto Trader?
Seriously, ask them..or something to ponder if you haven't already. ( maybe you have & have a great explanation I have yet to hear )

Why would a psychopathic rapist..premeditate his ultimate revenge rape, torture, murder on a girl he's KNOWN TO HAVE THE " HOTS " FOR... someone so methodical he bought the cuffs, weeks prior.
He used #67 to BLOCK HIS NUMBER
He used Barbs name..

But..CALLED AUTO TRADER??
Why would this cold hearted psycho call the business to say " could ya send that girl out???" If he were trying so hard to be calculating and deceitful?
One can't help but to wonder.

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Good morning everyone!

I can only post how I feel after reading about psychopath rapists and murderers for over three decades.

First, while some seem dismissive of him dousing his own pet with oil and setting it on fire as benign and just being a teenager, I do not dismiss such horrid actions. I have never known a single teen or adult for that matter that had the capability in their hearts to do such a cruel sadistic thing. It isn't normal behavior for anyone to do but it is a trait many psychopaths possess. It showed even then he had a depraved dark heart with little or no value for other living things. I also recall when they searched the junkyard they found several other bones. I don't think his pet cat was his first animal victim either or his last. He seemed to draw pleasure from doing this or he simply wouldn't/couldn't have done it. IMO He also seems to like fires and believes/uses fires to destroy things or in this case, TH. Another trait of a psychopath.

We could say the same thing about every psychopath murderer. The why would he/she do this or do it this way... comes up in every case when one of them is caught. Imo, we do not process thoughts like a psychopath does. They always think they are far smarter than they ever are even those who aren't highly intelligent. We then try to apply our own rational thoughts to what they do and what they did and why they did it the certain way they did their crimes. Many times we often say 'but why would he/she do that?' The answer most often is we don't know. Rapists and murderers are filled with irrational thoughts and trying to apply our own rational thinking to something far from society norms just isn't doable. We will never fully understand why murderers do what they do and in the manner they carried out each one.

As far as Auto Trader why would it be necessary for him to block his number then? He wasn't telling them TH was to meet Steven Avery at the junkyard. He wanted it on record she was to meet his sister. He left the impression he wasn't even going to be a part of the transaction and TH would be meeting with his sister. That is the very reason he said all of this to AT. They would relay the message telling her she would be meeting a female at the junkyard. Why would he lie about his sister wanting to sell her van when she did not want to do so? Why would he set this all up when he knew his sister would be away from the premises when TH arrived expecting to meet his sister? The entire thing was a lie. She wasn't selling her van and he knew it all along but it was a way to get 'that girl' to come to the junkyard where HE would be the only one waiting for her.

I absolutely do believe he felt he was owed a rape. After all he had already spent 18 years in prison for one he didn't do. He was known to be violent against women and I think deep down he hated women in general and he seethed with hate during the time he was locked up. I think he sat there for hours in his cell thinking of ways to murder a female if he ever got out.

If you look up the profile of a psychopath you will see one of their traits shows they are very vindictive revengeful individuals. Even if they don't become murderers and are highly successful professionally they will crush anyone and everyone in the ground to get to the top. Feelings for others never matters to the psychopath. They feel they are entitled to do whatever is necessary to get even when they feel they have been wronged. Its all about getting even or getting ahead and they will do anything... even murder to obtain that goal.

As far as why would he spend his money on these kind of tests if he was guilty is simple to me. What does he have to lose by doing so? He isn't the first defendant who has professed they were innocent who have tied up the courts for years and having other tests run only to be found out they were really guilty.

He wouldn't have to go to a bar and take a chance of being seen. This way he could slowly begin to lure his targeted victim to his own comfort zone.....the place and layout he knew better than anyone... without ever stepping foot outside of the junkyard.

He was deceitful that day. He lied and said TH would be meeting with his sister. He lied when he told AT that his sister wanted to sell her van when that wasn't the truth. He was deceitful when THs number was the only number he blocked twice that day when he called her.

Thanks for replying Dexter.

 

[Madeleine74]

Excellent post. I find it strange that a person who's work helped free SA from prison is vilified when her work points towards his guilt in TH's murder. Am I to distrust the lab results that freed SA because Culhane is such a horrible person? JMO

It is rather strange, I agree.

 

[missy1974]

Culhane's work and testimony also helped wrongfully convict him in the first place in 1985 IIRC.

Also, I don't believe SA has any money to put towards testing. It is being done by Zellner. She does accept donations, as does NWU for Brendan's defense. The family has nothing left as far as I know. Any money that SA did get in a settlement, went to his defense lawyers Buting/Strang, I think it was about 240K back in 2006.

 

[missy1974]

love this thread guys, so many good points being discussed :seeya:

I usually have a load of questions about this case that make me doubt SA's guilt, four new questions have come up since I caught up on the thread.

The motion in August - why if you were guilty, if you knew what you had done that night and had already served years in prison.... would you spend god knows how much of your own money on scientific testing to prove your innocence? Would you not keep that money? Would you not think of the embarrassment you would cause your family, who have supported you, when this testing does just prove your guilt? Which is a risk no? If you are guilty.

Phone records - We are spending so many hours talking about the phone records for SA and the 'suspicious' behaviour of blocking his number on 2 occasions. But have we spent any time looking at another person involved in this case who may have had motive and displayed odd records. RH - why dial in to voicemails and delete them? why have 22 calls from LE? If phone records are argued to be decisive in determining guilt, what does this behaviour say?

Photos of cows - Got to love cows! Where is the camera? If this was found and had those photos on, surely that is important?

Why TH? - If SA is smart enough to plan all this because he is a cold-blooded killer, nothing more and nothing less.. why be so public? why go through a business? Surely a smarter person would maybe drive into town and pick up a girl in a bar or something, something less traceable. Less able to be linked to them, especially if they are already known to LE and in the public eye somewhat.

Anywho, JMO but everything I read just seems to add more questions...

:wagon:

SA doesn't have any money to spend. But Zellner does and is spending hers. IMO she has someone talking or some additional information for her to be so confident in his innocence.

RH's phone records are interesting for sure! Other than Zellner saying the 22 calls were from LE, we don't have any confirmation of that, but those calls definitely do look suspicious. I also recall RH saying something about the "reception out there is terrible", how did he know that on the morning of the 5th if he hadn't been out there?

Photo's... her camera was recovered, cards were recovered and were damaged but they didn't try to extract the pictures from them. I would have to go look at the testimony, but IIRC, there is a way to do it, but they just didn't try.

I agree... if this was a planned thing, phoning AutoTrader in the morning isn't logical at all.

I still want to know why she would go to SA's door like Bobby and the State implies if she has Barb's address and Barb's name on the lead form.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

No one thought Culhane was a joke or accused her moral ethics and character when she ran the DNA test and was able to show, scientifically, that SA was not the known contributor of the DNA found on Penny Beerstein, the defacto test that got Avery out of prison from the wrongful rape conviction.

So in 2006, after a bullet and a bullet fragment are found in SA's garage, collected, and sent to her for testing, she runs a test on the control sample, which is the protocol. She finds some of her own DNA on the control sample (not the bullet, just the control). She then tests the bullet. She proactively discloses, in writing, her findings, both about finding her own DNA on the control sample which she had inadvertently contaminated, and then the results from testing the bullet itself, which did not contain her DNA and showed no contamination.

And for doing this, disclosing a contaminated control sample, she is described as a "disgrace to lab techs everywhere" and her "moral ethics" and "character" are questioned.

.
I think you have to add the context here.

The DNA did exonerate him for the PB rape, however~~that came AFTER GA admitted someone was in prison for a rape they didn't commit. You basically have 2 pieces of evidence that SA didn't commit that rape. Albeit, one was never followed up on. Had MCSD followed up on the admission of GA, there would be no reason to even test the DNA to prove his innocence.

The very fact that SC was the one who tested the DNA, you have to remember she would be on the winning side. We don't know her character, did she ALWAYS have to be on the winning side?

Now comes 2006, she gets an email from KK saying place TH in the garage. Does she do this to be on the winning side again? Perhaps and perhaps not. We don't know. We do not know what motivates her.

Let us not forget they removed .22 bullets from the garage during the first sweep of the garage. It is highly suspicious that THAT bullet wasn't found then~~only and conveniently AFTER they had TH's DNA did they find it, some 6 MONTHS later. If that doesn't scream suspicion I don't know what does.

It that happened to anyone of us~~we all would be saying W**.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

From what I have read TH by the time of the murder had come to the junkyard several times (12-15?) which leads me to believe he certainly did know her first name. So even when he called AT that day and said 'that girl' he was already setting it up to make it seem he didn't even know her or even know her first name. He did this purposefully wanting to distance himself from TH. Why wouldn't he just tell AT that TH needed to come to the same Avery junkyard she had been to many times before and then tell them which home on the compound belonged to his sister? She would know the layout well by then after coming there multiple times.

I don't find it suspicious because they found the bullet later on. I am sure that garage was filled with a lot of stuff and a .22 bullet fragment would be tiny...less than the size of a small pinkie nail. On the first searches did they clear everything out of the garage down to the bare concrete floor? In other cases evidence has been overlooked at first and when LE went back for additional searches more evidence was found.

What type of DNA was found on the bullet fragment? Did it come from blood or brain matter? Remember in the Phil Spector case where the DT (Henry Lee) found a piece of tooth belonging to the victim, LC, that the police had overlooked when they did a search warrant of his home and had released it to the defense? Small and tiny items can easily be hidden or overlooked especially when they are among other things or if it had a concrete floor they can even fall down into a crack if the concrete had cracks/crevices in it. A .22 bullet itself before it is fired is already small but take the bullet casing away leaving only the actual bullet or .22 fragment they are extremely small so I can easily understand why it wasn't found the first time around.

It still does not explain SAs blood being inside of the murdered victim's own vehicle. If KZ cant prove his blood was planted or tainted with ETDA that alone can be enough to uphold his conviction and its already held up on appeal twice. I remember watching a case on A&E several years ago about an unsolved cold case. It had remained unsolved for over 20 years but all along LE had the evidence they needed but it had been overlooked all of those years. They had a POI at that time of the murder but they were under the impression they had no evidence to tie him to the woman's murder where it would standup in court. So new detectives were assigned to the case and in the evidence locker room was the POIs shoes. They had never sent out the shoes to be tested because to the naked eye they seem to be clean. The lab was able to find three tiny specks of blood droplets unable to be seen by the naked eye. The DNA came back as belonging to the murdered woman. So three tiny blood specks convicted the man and he was sentenced to LWOP. The reason I bring this up if SA ever gets a new trial KZ will not be the only ones who do new testing on other items and the Prosecutor will also do testing on items that weren't tested in the first trial.

I have asked this before. It may have been answered and I missed it somehow but what happens if she test other items of evidence and they come up as SAs DNA? Does she then have to turn that over in discovery if there is a new trial? tia. Or does she just let SA know the results and then no longer ask for retrial?

I still continue to believe this case rises or falls on the suspect's own blood being found inside of the victim's vehicle and on the hood latch although I believe the case has strong CE to go along with the blood evidence. If there is no irrefutable proof his was planted and tainted with ETDA then the only way it could have gotten there is if SA was there at the time of the murder and was bleeding inside of THs vehicle.

JMO though.

 

[robin8]

:wagon:

SA doesn't have any money to spend. But Zellner does and is spending hers. IMO she has someone talking or some additional information for her to be so confident in his innocence.

RH's phone records are interesting for sure! Other than Zellner saying the 22 calls were from LE, we don't have any confirmation of that, but those calls definitely do look suspicious. I also recall RH saying something about the "reception out there is terrible", how did he know that on the morning of the 5th if he hadn't been out there?

Photo's... her camera was recovered, cards were recovered and were damaged but they didn't try to extract the pictures from them. I would have to go look at the testimony, but IIRC, there is a way to do it, but they just didn't try.

I agree... if this was a planned thing, phoning AutoTrader in the morning isn't logical at all.

I still want to know why she would go to SA's door like Bobby and the State implies if she has Barb's address and Barb's name on the lead form.

BBM

this interests me - why never review the pictures if this was one of the documented sightings of TH?

Also would be good to know if TH regularly carried her camera in the car, because that's interesting she was spotted with a camera and a camera was then found in her car. If she didn't carry it often, then surely that's a big indicator that sighting could be correct.

All speculation I know but still :scared: