MaM a Year Later - Reconstruct the Crime

[BigCityAccountant]

BBM

this interests me - why never review the pictures if this was one of the documented sightings of TH?

Also would be good to know if TH regularly carried her camera in the car, because that's interesting she was spotted with a camera and a camera was then found in her car. If she didn't carry it often, then surely that's a big indicator that sighting could be correct.

All speculation I know but still :scared:

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The camera was found in the burn barrel. There was one camera card that was found in her car. IIRC, I don't believe it to be the one that was in the camera.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

From what I have read TH by the time of the murder had come to the junkyard several times (12-15?) which leads me to believe he certainly did know her first name. So even when he called AT that day and said 'that girl' he was already setting it up to make it seem he didn't even know her or even know her first name. He did this purposefully wanting to distance himself from TH. Why wouldn't he just tell AT that TH needed to come to the same Avery junkyard she had been to many times before and then tell them which home on the compound belonged to his sister? She would know the layout well by then after coming there multiple times.

I don't find it suspicious because they found the bullet later on. I am sure that garage was filled with a lot of stuff and a .22 bullet fragment would be tiny...less than the size of a small pinkie nail. On the first searches did they clear everything out of the garage down to the bare concrete floor? In other cases evidence has been overlooked at first and when LE went back for additional searches more evidence was found.

What type of DNA was found on the bullet fragment? Did it come from blood or brain matter? Remember in the Phil Spector case where the DT (Henry Lee) found a piece of tooth belonging to the victim, LC, that the police had overlooked when they did a search warrant of his home and had released it to the defense? Small and tiny items can easily be hidden or overlooked especially when they are among other things or if it had a concrete floor they can even fall down into a crack if the concrete had cracks/crevices in it. A .22 bullet itself before it is fired is already small but take the bullet casing away leaving only the actual bullet or .22 fragment they are extremely small so I can easily understand why it wasn't found the first time around.

It still does not explain SAs blood being inside of the murdered victim's own vehicle. If KZ cant prove his blood was planted or tainted with ETDA that alone can be enough to uphold his conviction and its already held up on appeal twice. I remember watching a case on A&E several years ago about an unsolved cold case. It had remained unsolved for over 20 years but all along LE had the evidence they needed but it had been overlooked all of those years. They had a POI at that time of the murder but they were under the impression they had no evidence to tie him to the woman's murder where it would standup in court. So new detectives were assigned to the case and in the evidence locker room was the POIs shoes. They had never sent out the shoes to be tested because to the naked eye they seem to be clean. The lab was able to find three tiny specks of blood droplets unable to be seen by the naked eye. The DNA came back as belonging to the murdered woman. So three tiny blood specks convicted the man and he was sentenced to LWOP. The reason I bring this up if SA ever gets a new trial KZ will not be the only ones who do new testing on other items and the Prosecutor will also do testing on items that weren't tested in the first trial.

I have asked this before. It may have been answered and I missed it somehow but what happens if she test other items of evidence and they come up as SAs DNA? Does she then have to turn that over in discovery if there is a new trial? tia. Or does she just let SA know the results and then no longer ask for retrial?

I still continue to believe this case rises or falls on the suspect's own blood being found inside of the victim's vehicle and on the hood latch although I believe the case has strong CE to go along with the blood evidence. If there is no irrefutable proof his was planted and tainted with ETDA then the only way it could have gotten there is if SA was there at the time of the murder and was bleeding inside of THs vehicle.

JMO though.

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Both KZ and the prosecution get the results at the same time, so I'm sure if they come back as proof positive that SA did in fact kill TH, then IMO the prosecutor will be screaming it from the rooftops.

 

[proudfootz]

Culhane's work and testimony also helped wrongfully convict him in the first place in 1985 IIRC.

Also, I don't believe SA has any money to put towards testing. It is being done by Zellner. She does accept donations, as does NWU for Brendan's defense. The family has nothing left as far as I know. Any money that SA did get in a settlement, went to his defense lawyers Buting/Strang, I think it was about 240K back in 2006.

Yes, the defense didn't have much by way of resources compared to the State (which apparently spent in excess of $2 million prosecuting this case).

Why didn't the defense hire experts to debunk every unsubstantiated claim against Steven? They did not have the luxury of billing the taxpayers for work related to the trial.

 

[proudfootz]

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I think you have to add the context here.

The DNA did exonerate him for the PB rape, however~~that came AFTER GA admitted someone was in prison for a rape they didn't commit. You basically have 2 pieces of evidence that SA didn't commit that rape. Albeit, one was never followed up on. Had MCSD followed up on the admission of GA, there would be no reason to even test the DNA to prove his innocence.

The very fact that SC was the one who tested the DNA, you have to remember she would be on the winning side. We don't know her character, did she ALWAYS have to be on the winning side?

Now comes 2006, she gets an email from KK saying place TH in the garage. Does she do this to be on the winning side again? Perhaps and perhaps not. We don't know. We do not know what motivates her.

Let us not forget they removed .22 bullets from the garage during the first sweep of the garage. It is highly suspicious that THAT bullet wasn't found then~~only and conveniently AFTER they had TH's DNA did they find it, some 6 MONTHS later. If that doesn't scream suspicion I don't know what does.

It that happened to anyone of us~~we all would be saying W**.

Apparently Culhane couldn't get around to running the tests which exonerated Steven for about a year, as pointed out in the trial transcripts.

Admittedly, they are very busy, which in part accounts for some of the mistakes made in that lab.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

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Both KZ and the prosecution get the results at the same time, so I'm sure if they come back as proof positive that SA did in fact kill TH, then IMO the prosecutor will be screaming it from the rooftops.

Thank you so much for replying.

So KZ has to let the current DA know what all she is having tested and the results are given from the testing lab to both parties at the same time?

I know what you mean. lol I am sure KZ will be shouting it from the roof tops if any of the evidence points away from SA and toward someone else. When did the testing start and has she tweeted any of the results yet? If they test certain items and get no results whatsoever can they request other items to be tested?

Is she retesting all of the forensic evidence that was used by the state at trial? I would think that would be automatic, and would be the first things she would want to have tested since its those pieces of evidence that got him convicted.

Do you know how many items of evidence the state has in their possession? Even the state never test every piece of evidence they have especially if they get the evidence they need where they are confident the results shows guilt already.

Sorry for all of the questions. I wish I had the time where I could read all of the case documents, but unfortunately, I don't. I did keep up with his murder trial when it was happening.

TIA

 

[Limaes]

Can we believe CA? He was a creep in his own right.

It didn't come from CA, it was Robert Fabian who told LE. He heard it.

 

[Limaes]

:wave: Hi Karinna! I was just thinking about you the other day, you have not posted in awhile Hope you had a nice Christmas!

So, no one has any thoughts on why Teresa would go to SA's door instead of Barb's, since that is the address she was given?

She was intercepted by SA before she had a chance. Imo he told her that BJ had to go somewhere and she left the money with him.

 

[Limaes]

So who last "visually" spotted her? Anyone apart from an Avery or anyone who knew Avery actually? Was there an independent witness or witnesses? Just can't seem to recall any at the moment.

JEZ. Her phone records detail that AT spoke with her after she left the Z's and there is no reason, or evidence, that she went back there imo.

 

[Limaes]

Teresa was a smart, independent woman who obviously did what she wanted, when she wanted.
She was no naive " damsel in distress "
She wasn't afraid
Wasn't lead under false pretenses & left alive..IMO

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

I couldn't disagree more. When she was being murdered, she most definitely was a damsel in distress. Not one shred of evidence that she left the property alive.

 

[Limaes]

Real recourse doesn't equal money IMO
For some of us, it's moral, principal & justice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

He was suing them hoping to get 36 million. Sounds like it was about the money for him imo.

 

[Limaes]

Yes, there was propane delivery driver who worked in the area noticed a vehicle like the RAV4 leaving the vicinity of the Avery Salvage Yard after Teresa took photos of the van for Auto Trader.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...rial-Transcript-Day-19-2007Mar08.pdf#page=122

B & S were really scraping the barrel by calling this witness. They were struggling imo.

 

[Limaes]

Good morning everyone!

I can only post how I feel after reading about psychopath rapists and murderers for over three decades.

First, while some seem dismissive of him dousing his own pet with oil and setting it on fire as benign and just being a teenager, I do not dismiss such horrid actions. I have never known a single teen or adult for that matter that had the capability in their hearts to do such a cruel sadistic thing. It isn't normal behavior for anyone to do but it is a trait many psychopaths possess. It showed even then he had a depraved dark heart with little or no value for other living things. I also recall when they searched the junkyard they found several other bones. I don't think his pet cat was his first animal victim either or his last. He seemed to draw pleasure from doing this or he simply wouldn't/couldn't have done it. IMO He also seems to like fires and believes/uses fires to destroy things or in this case, TH. Another trait of a psychopath.

We could say the same thing about every psychopath murderer. The why would he/she do this or do it this way... comes up in every case when one of them is caught. Imo, we do not process thoughts like a psychopath does. They always think they are far smarter than they ever are even those who aren't highly intelligent. We then try to apply our own rational thoughts to what they do and what they did and why they did it the certain way they did their crimes. Many times we often say 'but why would he/she do that?' The answer most often is we don't know. Rapists and murderers are filled with irrational thoughts and trying to apply our own rational thinking to something far from society norms just isn't doable. We will never fully understand why murderers do what they do and in the manner they carried out each one.

As far as Auto Trader why would it be necessary for him to block his number then? He wasn't telling them TH was to meet Steven Avery at the junkyard. He wanted it on record she was to meet his sister. He left the impression he wasn't even going to be a part of the transaction and TH would be meeting with his sister. That is the very reason he said all of this to AT. They would relay the message telling her she would be meeting a female at the junkyard. Why would he lie about his sister wanting to sell her van when she did not want to do so? Why would he set this all up when he knew his sister would be away from the premises when TH arrived expecting to meet his sister? The entire thing was a lie. She wasn't selling her van and he knew it all along but it was a way to get 'that girl' to come to the junkyard where HE would be the only one waiting for her.

I absolutely do believe he felt he was owed a rape. After all he had already spent 18 years in prison for one he didn't do. He was known to be violent against women and I think deep down he hated women in general and he seethed with hate during the time he was locked up. I think he sat there for hours in his cell thinking of ways to murder a female if he ever got out.

If you look up the profile of a psychopath you will see one of their traits shows they are very vindictive revengeful individuals. Even if they don't become murderers and are highly successful professionally they will crush anyone and everyone in the ground to get to the top. Feelings for others never matters to the psychopath. They feel they are entitled to do whatever is necessary to get even when they feel they have been wronged. Its all about getting even or getting ahead and they will do anything... even murder to obtain that goal.

As far as why would he spend his money on these kind of tests if he was guilty is simple to me. What does he have to lose by doing so? He isn't the first defendant who has professed they were innocent who have tied up the courts for years and having other tests run only to be found out they were really guilty.

He wouldn't have to go to a bar and take a chance of being seen. This way he could slowly begin to lure his targeted victim to his own comfort zone.....the place and layout he knew better than anyone... without ever stepping foot outside of the junkyard.

He was deceitful that day. He lied and said TH would be meeting with his sister. He lied when he told AT that his sister wanted to sell her van when that wasn't the truth. He was deceitful when THs number was the only number he blocked twice that day when he called her.

Thanks for replying Dexter.

Great post!

Do you think SA sitting through the depositions in the days leading up to the murder, fueled his rage even more? Hearing the testimony of those who put him in jail surely had some effect on him?

 

[proudfootz]

B & S were really scraping the barrel by calling this witness. They were struggling imo.

Why is calling a witness 'scraping the barrel'?

I'm more interested in finding out what happened to Teresa than anything else.

 

[proudfootz]

Great post!

Do you think SA sitting through the depositions in the days leading up to the murder, fueled his rage even more? Hearing the testimony of those who put him in jail surely had some effect on him?

If we're going to speculate about how people might feel - do you think the depositions with more and more evidence of malfeasance by the police made the cops angrier and angrier at Steven, whom they falsely convicted?

Surely this had an effect on them.

 

[Limaes]

Yes, the defense didn't have much by way of resources compared to the State (which apparently spent in excess of $2 million prosecuting this case).

Why didn't the defense hire experts to debunk every unsubstantiated claim against Steven? They did not have the luxury of billing the taxpayers for work related to the trial.

That is not true. If the defense truely believed the blood was extracted from the vial and then planted, it would cost them nothing to get it tested because the State would pick up the tab. Not only did they not use this option, they attempted to block the State from testing it. This is outrageous imo.

 

[proudfootz]

I couldn't disagree more. When she was being murdered, she most definitely was a damsel in distress. Not one shred of evidence that she left the property alive.

...other than cell phone pings and witnesses.

 

[proudfootz]

That is not true. If the defense truely believed the blood was extracted from the vial and then planted, it would cost them nothing to get it tested because the State would pick up the tab. Not only did they not use this option, they attempted to block the State from testing it. This is outrageous imo.

When the State has millions to spend, and the defense only a fraction of that, of course the resources are going to come into play.

At the time of the trial, there is no reliable test for EDTA - and there still isn't.

It's outrageous that the State made use of a non-scientific test as part of their 'expert' testimony'.

 

[Limaes]

When the State has millions to spend, and the defense only a fraction of that, of course the resources are going to come into play.

At the time of the trial, there is no reliable test for EDTA - and there still isn't.

It's outrageous that the State made use of a non-scientific test as part of their 'expert' testimony'.

Just because case enthusiasts don't understand something, doesn't mean it is unreliable imo.

The defense attempted to block the State from testing the blood so therefore money is no excuse. If they did not perform those tests, SA would have successfully appealed on the grounds of insufficient counsel because his own defense attorneys were willing to sit on the evidence that they were claiming would prove his innocence.

 

[Limaes]

...other than cell phone pings and witnesses.

The alleged cell phone pings still put her phone at ASY imo. There were no witnesses. Only SA.

 

[Limaes]

If we're going to speculate about how people might feel - do you think the depositions with more and more evidence of malfeasance by the police made the cops angrier and angrier at Steven, whom they falsely convicted?

Surely this had an effect on them.

Which officers are you referring to?