Manorville Butcher ** ONLY **

Peter, so you are thinking that the Manorville Butcher was lured to Ocean Parkway after the GB4 were found to place JT's and Jane Doe #6's remains there after the fact at night while the police were still investigating during the day? Also possibly Jane Doe #7 bag of bones (Davis Park)?

There's a chance of that. No certainty though. But it would be consistent, what I have seen in other torso-killer cases. They are easily upset about someone who steals the show (as in another SK). The most classic one is still London Torso II. When Jack the Ripper got suddenly all attention, he took fresh victims, but otherwise, he followed the same pattern of throwing in some body parts where he could expect to draw some attention. To place a torso at the construction site of New Scotland Yard was bold, it was basically a little bit Magnotta style. To throw a package with an arm in Mary Shelley's front yard was rude, but almost did the trick. Only Jack stroke again with his double night. We know how that story ended. Jack the Ripper stopped suddenly and was never seen again, London Torso II killed happily along till almost WWI. I can imagine, Manorville Torso would aim for a similar result when he realizes, he won't get attention by spreading body parts.
 
but that would not apply to Jane Doe #8 and her baby because it was reported that Jane Doe #8's skull was there long enough for tree roots to grow through.

Roots of what is always the question. Some plants grow slow, some fast. So I would like to hold back on this judgment till I know more about those plants. Brambles for example can grow over and through a body in a good summer season and eat in the process most of the tissue almost as fast as bacteria do.
 
Davis Park by the way is a pretty exclusive neighborhood.

Which would it all the more interesting for an attention seeker. See my remark about London Torso II and Mary Shelley's front yard. That was near St. James Square, so technically one of the most exclusive neighborhoods in the world.
 
Interesting.. I was always under the assumption, the body parts were placed there only after LE had searched those areas already. So atleast 2 of the victims body parts had been there all along and were missed?

That's a hard one. But seeing, how SCPD works, we obviously can't rely they don't miss a thing. However, the same thing is true for the difference between fast and slow growing plants. So there are possibilities, those remains were there, but no certainty.
 
Inspector G, I've forgotten but does your theory about the duck hunter include a closet homosexual or bisexual aspect?
 
Inspector G, I've forgotten but does your theory about the duck hunter include a closet homosexual or bisexual aspect?

LOLOLOL. This was one of the funnier things I have read today. Thanks alot. I burst out laughing at my desk when I read this.

Thansk!
 
Davis Park by the way is a pretty exclusive neighborhood.

yeah exclusively for drunkards and rapscallions :P

For the sake of accuracy the legs washed up at Blue Point beach which is exclusive to the 10 or so houses there, but the newspapers apparently never heard of this place so they say Davis or 1 mile west of Davis.

I'm going to head up to Newsday in my goat costume and inform them.
 

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Thanks Inspctrgadget, I remember seeing a slideshow here on the forum with pic's of him at a big BBQ or picnic. Do you know where that can be found? It is amazing how he fits all of your points. Good to see you again.

What I did to come up with my POI was the following:

1) go to the duck hunting association's website (.org) that I mentioned in my last post. You'll note that they hold an annual duckboat festival at Cedar Beach (where JD#6 and JT were found) and you'll also note that they practice shooting shotgun at the exclusive Peconic River Sportsmans Club (PRSC) which is adjacent to where the Manorville victims were found.
2) Now go to the PRSC's website, get their address and use Google maps. Note its proximity to the location where the Manorville bodies were found off Halsey Manor Road.
3) Now what you want to do is use the Wayback Machine to verify that this association was active in 2000 at both Cedar Beach and Manorville. Here's a link to the Wayback Machine: http://archive.org/web/web.php Go ahead and enter the waterfowl association's website address into the URL form. You can now browse the site as far back as 2000. You need to get comfortable using the Wayback Machine so you can understand how the different web pages all have different screen capture dates. So their newsletters for example may go back to 2000, but their Gallery might go back to 2002, etc.
4) Now what you want to do is try and identify any and all active members in 2000 - 2003 or so. Make a list of every person's name you find in a newsletter, etc. The assumption here is that this person would have been an active member if they went so far as to attend BOTH the duckboat show and the much more exclusive PRSC shooting event in 2000.
5) Now verify that they had a duckboat show in 2000. They did, it was actually held at Gilgo Beach that year for some reason.
6) Now verify that they had a PRSC shoot prior to November 2000 when JD#6 was found. They did. There was limited availability, so this tells us too that whoever this person was was an extremely active member.
7) Now go through the picture galleries and try and put faces to names of your "active members in 2000". Guess their ages, and eliminate any that would be too old to be a serial killer. Note that 28.9 is the average age of a serial killer for their first kill.
8) Now you've got your short list of suspects. There should be two, one of whom appears in a grainy picture at the PRSC shoot, another who I assume was taking the picture.
9) Now research these two people by sleuthing their relatives using http://www.veromi.net/ and you'll find that one had an extremely traumatic event in their youth and lives minutes from the Manorville crime scene.

Oh, by the way, you'll also find that as a guide he recommended that his clients bring along 4-HD Camo...
http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MS_H4138
 
What I did to come up with my POI was the following:

1) go to the duck hunting association's website (.org) that I mentioned in my last post. You'll note that they hold an annual duckboat festival at Cedar Beach (where JD#6 and JT were found) and you'll also note that they practice shooting shotgun at the exclusive Peconic River Sportsmans Club (PRSC) which is adjacent to where the Manorville victims were found.
2) Now go to the PRSC's website, get their address and use Google maps. Note its proximity to the location where the Manorville bodies were found off Halsey Manor Road.
3) Now what you want to do is use the Wayback Machine to verify that this association was active in 2000 at both Cedar Beach and Manorville. Here's a link to the Wayback Machine: http://archive.org/web/web.php Go ahead and enter the waterfowl association's website address into the URL form. You can now browse the site as far back as 2000. You need to get comfortable using the Wayback Machine so you can understand how the different web pages all have different screen capture dates. So their newsletters for example may go back to 2000, but their Gallery might go back to 2002, etc.
4) Now what you want to do is try and identify any and all active members in 2000 - 2003 or so. Make a list of every person's name you find in a newsletter, etc. The assumption here is that this person would have been an active member if they went so far as to attend BOTH the duckboat show and the much more exclusive PRSC shooting event in 2000.
5) Now verify that they had a duckboat show in 2000. They did, it was actually held at Gilgo Beach that year for some reason.
6) Now verify that they had a PRSC shoot prior to November 2000 when JD#6 was found. They did. There was limited availability, so this tells us too that whoever this person was was an extremely active member.
7) Now go through the picture galleries and try and put faces to names of your "active members in 2000". Guess their ages, and eliminate any that would be too old to be a serial killer. Note that 28.9 is the average age of a serial killer for their first kill.
8) Now you've got your short list of suspects. There should be two, one of whom appears in a grainy picture at the PRSC shoot, another who I assume was taking the picture.
9) Now research these two people by sleuthing their relatives using http://www.veromi.net/ and you'll find that one had an extremely traumatic event in their youth and lives minutes from the Manorville crime scene.

Oh, by the way, you'll also find that as a guide he recommended that his clients bring along 4-HD Camo...
http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MS_H4138


Actually, here is the specific brand recommended to clients:

http://www.wingsupply.com/blinds-ca...os-mossy-oak-duck-blind-30x54-pre-cut-burlap/

My guess is that he had boatloads of this stuff laying around if he was cleaning up after his clients after a hunt.
 
Actually, here is the specific brand recommended to clients:

http://www.wingsupply.com/blinds-ca...os-mossy-oak-duck-blind-30x54-pre-cut-burlap/

My guess is that he had boatloads of this stuff laying around if he was cleaning up after his clients after a hunt.
One of my POI also lives in Manorville, not the same as yours, anyway.....in looking at photos on the website for the Sportsman Club at Manorville, who are the NYPD Shotgun Team and what are the World Police Games?
 
I don't think "duck hunting season" is the point. Duck hunters do things even when it's not "duck season."
 
Interesting.. I was always under the assumption, the body parts were placed there only after LE had searched those areas already. So atleast 2 of the victims body parts had been there all along and were missed?

Nope. That is some confusing information that somebody passed on to you.

There is no evidence that any remains had not been there all along. None of the remains were found in places that were previously searched not sure where you heard that).

As a matter of fact, all of the remains were found rather easily during the first look on foot in the areas where they were found (and mostly without the assistance of dogs).
 
I don't think "duck hunting season" is the point. Duck hunters do things even when it's not "duck season."

True, and therefore, following Inspector's reasoning, most murders out of the duck hunting season means exactly what? For a duck hunter, duck hunting season, especially with all those "club members" around would be a busy time with less time to spare to kill anybody but ducks.
The burlap angle is useless for Manorville, but that doesn't mean, someone who don't wrap bodies in it wouldn't use burlap for other purposes, for example using blinds. The burlap angle however would be significant for LISK. Which would mean, we discuss this theory in the wrong thread, but okay. We can always ask a mod to move if it appears necessary.
Holding Inspector's theory against my profiles for LISK and the partial profile of Manorville, it appears to me, if we leave the whole burlap story aside, at least for Manorville isn't too much of a contradiction between them.
LISK is another matter. That guy is a city child and his idea of hunting means stalking working girls, not shooting ducks. But Manorville? Living at least since many years there in Manorville? I could imagine, he could also hunt ducks aside of a lot of other things. In that case, he would probably have books about shotguns used for duck hunting in his shelf right aside of Dorian Gray or the Silence of the Lambs.
 
The thing about duck hunting is that despite what many of you might think, hunting is a sport that is actually way more popular among residents of Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and the Bronx than among Long Islanders. You wouldn't think this but it is true.

Part of it is the need of the city folks to get out to "the country". The other part is the popularity among friends and family members as a traditional pastime of the neighborhoods.

Don't think this is true?

Simply visit any public shooting range (Huntington, Islip, Brookhaven, etc...) in the Fall on a Saturday or Sunday before hunting season and you will see that the guys from the city dominate the Long Islanders five to one.

Hunting is number two to only fishing as being the top recreational activity enjoyed by city men.
 
The thing about duck hunting is that despite what many of you might think, hunting is a sport that is actually way more popular among residents of Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and the Bronx than among Long Islanders. You wouldn't think this but it is true.

Part of it is the need of the city folks to get out to "the country". The other part is the popularity among friends and family members as a traditional pastime of the neighborhoods.

Don't think this is true?

Simply visit any public shooting range (Huntington, Islip, Brookhaven, etc...) in the Fall on a Saturday or Sunday before hunting season and you will see that the guys from the city dominate the Long Islanders five to one.

Hunting is number two to only fishing as being the top recreational activity enjoyed by city men.

Now you got me. The closest I ever came to fishing was cooking & grilling the fishes, other caught. Every time, I cast a line, I fell asleep a few minutes later. But then, Episode One did the same thing to me.
The original problem, I had with the duck hunter theory was, when AC and the LISK were still excluded, the logic pointed rather at a duck than duck-hunter. But concentrated on Manorville only, it's not that easy to dismiss. People can be a lot of things at once or not. I am a writer, but also a hobby cook, a diver, a reader, a husband and a history freak. It would be the same for any other person, SKs included.
 
You realize, that Manorville and LISK are not the same guy and that most of the murders happened out of the duck hunting season?

Peter, I respectfully disagree. You subscribe to a theory that I don't. You believe that the crime scenes allow you to classify two different killers, one disorganized and the other organized. Your take on Manorville versus GB4 crime scenes leads you to the conclusion that the important burlap connection that I've identified is not important since you believe strongly that there are two killers. Your theory is based on underlying work done by F.B.I.'s Douglas and Ressler.

Note:
"There is a deeper problem with F.B.I. profiling. Douglas and Ressler didn’t interview a representative sample of serial killers to come up with their typology. They talked to whoever happened to be in the neighborhood. Nor did they interview their subjects according to a standardized protocol. They just sat down and chatted, which isn’t a particularly firm foundation for a psychological system. So you might wonder whether serial killers can really be categorized by their level of organization.

Not long ago, a group of psychologists at the University of Liverpool decided to test the F.B.I.’s assumptions. First, they made a list of crime-scene characteristics generally considered to show organization: perhaps the victim was alive during the sex acts, or the body was posed in a certain way, or the murder weapon was missing, or the body was concealed, or torture and restraints were involved. Then they made a list of characteristics showing disorganization: perhaps the victim was beaten, the body was left in an isolated spot, the victim’s belongings were scattered, or the murder weapon was improvised.

If the F.B.I. was right, they reasoned, the crime-scene details on each of those two lists should “co-occur”—that is, if you see one or more organized traits in a crime, there should be a reasonably high probability of seeing other organized traits. When they looked at a sample of a hundred serial crimes, however, they couldn’t find any support for the F.B.I.’s distinction. Crimes don’t fall into one camp or the other. It turns out that they’re almost always a mixture of a few key organized traits and a random array of disorganized traits. Laurence Alison, one of the leaders of the Liverpool group and the author of “The Forensic Psychologist’s Casebook,” told me, “The whole business is a lot more complicated than the F.B.I. imagines.”


Here's the source article:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/11/12/071112fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=1
 
Without all the details re: the condition of the remains of GB4 (honestly, how does the ME know they all died of strangulation...even if they all had a ligature around their necks?) there is no way to absolutely say that Manorville is a different killer. Manorville was 12 and 9 years ago. The killer may have evolved...may have realized that there was no need to dismember or nowhere safe for him to do it anymore.

What if Manorville has a buddy and... being competitive-type guys....they hunted women just like it was yet another competitive sport.

Just saying....None of us can say that the two locations are not linked to one killer or one that has a buddy or rival.
 
Peter, I respectfully disagree.

That's fine and your good right

You subscribe to a theory that I don't. You believe that the crime scenes allow you to classify two different killers, one disorganized and the other organized. Your take on Manorville versus GB4 crime scenes leads you to the conclusion that the important burlap connection that I've identified is not important since you believe strongly that there are two killers.

That's not true. In fact, I profiled both of them, LISK and Manorville as medium to high organized. And I considered the burlap wrapping always as important in the cases, where it actually happened. I consider it not important for those cases which include no burlap wrapping and at the same time a significant different signature and a completely different timeline.

Your theory is based on underlying work done by F.B.I.'s Douglas and Ressler.

And Harbort, Hazelwood, Keppler, my own studies of lots of cases. So to say, my work would be exclusively based on Douglas and Ressler is just touching about 5% of the whole.

Note:
"There is a deeper problem with F.B.I. profiling. Douglas and Ressler didn’t interview a representative sample of serial killers to come up with their typology. They talked to whoever happened to be in the neighborhood. Nor did they interview their subjects according to a standardized protocol. They just sat down and chatted, which isn’t a particularly firm foundation for a psychological system. So you might wonder whether serial killers can really be categorized by their level of organization.

Which would be relevant if organization would be the only criteria. Which it isn't. And even if it would be relevant, you mix up here tool and interpretation. There is no question, that SKs have different levels of organization, it's the question how to categorize this and how to interpret this. Harbort for example uses four categories, I use in many cases just a percentage scale.
The misunderstanding is, that a bunch of psychologists doing studies are busy on a rather theoretical level, while the main interest of Ressler, Douglas, Hazelwood, Keppler, and so on and so on, are on catching SKs. So it's nice to develop methods, who can give you a very accurate picture about the connections between IQ, social organization and general organizational level of an SK after you have him and can make him fill out test forms. But it will only work AFTER you get him.

Not long ago, a group of psychologists at the University of Liverpool decided to test the F.B.I.’s assumptions. First, they made a list of crime-scene characteristics generally considered to show organization: perhaps the victim was alive during the sex acts, or the body was posed in a certain way, or the murder weapon was missing, or the body was concealed, or torture and restraints were involved. Then they made a list of characteristics showing disorganization: perhaps the victim was beaten, the body was left in an isolated spot, the victim’s belongings were scattered, or the murder weapon was improvised.

Which would be already the first mistake. Because one sign alone isn't relevant, it's the summary of symptoms used in profiling. If you have someone, who used a weapon on convenience but brought his burglary tools to enter the house, what did you get? The answer will depend on who you ask:

The theoretical shrink: "All you criteria are wrong, you can'T conclude anything"
The profiling critic: "Profiling is all bull****"
The profiler (provided, he is good enough in his job): "So he brought burglary tools, means, the entry was premeditated, but not a weapon, means the killing wasn't planned originally" and then he goes and need many more details to confirm or dismiss what he sees from the first little details"
Which is essentially the reason, why profilers are currently the only ones who ever caught SKs with investigative measures. All the critics relied on accidents in the one or other form (either catching an SK without plate or while speeding or parking too near to a hydrant or hoping, an SK gets caught in the act by accident and his DNA pops up in the database). So, from a pure mathematical and therefore scientific point of view, the opinion of critics with a zero percent success quota tends in general to be irrelevant.

If the F.B.I. was right, they reasoned, the crime-scene details on each of those two lists should “co-occur”—that is, if you see one or more organized traits in a crime, there should be a reasonably high probability of seeing other organized traits. When they looked at a sample of a hundred serial crimes, however, they couldn’t find any support for the F.B.I.’s distinction. Crimes don’t fall into one camp or the other. It turns out that they’re almost always a mixture of a few key organized traits and a random array of disorganized traits. Laurence Alison, one of the leaders of the Liverpool group and the author of “The Forensic Psychologist’s Casebook,” told me, “The whole business is a lot more complicated than the F.B.I. imagines.”

Here's the source article:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/11/12/071112fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=1

I agree with Laurence Allison in so far, that the matter is is far more complex than just a digital decision between organized and not-organized. But then, the idea that SKs are organized or not organized and nothing in between is an idea, that is most of the time only carried by the critics of profiling per se (and unfortunately lately also the FBI, which maybe also is one of the reasons their success quota has reached the basement and is still headed straight downwards).
As Allison correctly points out, there is always a mix. But it's a mix of three components:

- clear signs of higher organization
- signs without relevance for the organization
- sings for a lack of organization

The problem is, in the process of "formalizing" profiling, the FBI made without doubt mistakes. Lets take just one example. They placed "beating" as secondary symptom on the list of signs for lack of organization. I admittedly never got why. It makes no sense because it doesn't show anything about the degree of organization, it shows more about the killer's emotional setup. That is like one using a hammer to drive a nail in the wall, missing the nail and the other guy blaming the hammer.
So while the concept of "organization" is right, the wrong formalized procedures of the FBI have hampered the success. That's all. It happens if an organization like the FBI is more interested in formalizing to get an accord with scientific formalizing than in honing the tools correctly.

On a personal side note: I hope, one day, I can put all those files, I have here on paper, in a database. Some friends are already about to help me there, so there is hope. It would make it so much easier to show instead of explain.
 
Without all the details re: the condition of the remains of GB4 (honestly, how does the ME know they all died of strangulation...even if they all had a ligature around their necks?) there is no way to absolutely say that Manorville is a different killer. Manorville was 12 and 9 years ago. The killer may have evolved...may have realized that there was no need to dismember or nowhere safe for him to do it anymore.

What if Manorville has a buddy and... being competitive-type guys....they hunted women just like it was yet another competitive sport.

Just saying....None of us can say that the two locations are not linked to one killer or one that has a buddy or rival.

Okay, once more the differences:

LISK wraps his victims
Manorville does not

LISK places his victims in a clustered dump site
Manorville does not

LISK targets prostitutes advertising in the internet
Manorville hunts at street corners

LISK has a kill frequency of average 2 per year, with signs of ramping up
Manorville has a constant kill frequence of about 0.25 per year

LISK drops whole bodies in one place
Manorville dismembers them and spreads them all over the place

LISK is a left-hander (showing in a counterclockwise circular pattern when he laid out his victims)
Manorville is a right-hander (showing for example in the angle of the cuts when he destroyed the tattoo on JT's back)

Sooo ... I hear this "MOs develop" stuff every few weeks here. But to change from Manorville into LISK, a killer who has a low kill frequency and a peak level of violence would have to speed up his kill frequency by about factor 8 while at the same time de-escalate in violence. He would have to change his hunting behavior from an environment that takes the need from him to open the communication to one that forces him to do the first step and he would have to give up his signature that forced him to put out the body parts somewhere where they could pull attention to hide them away in the thickets of Long Island with the clear goal to prevent finding them. That's as 180° as it goes. Basically, Manorville would need to give up all reasons, why he became an SK in the first place and find new ones to become LISK. So, yes, I feel pretty certain in my claim, there are two of them.
 

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