Maui Hawaii Wildfires, 97 dead, Aug 2023

[Charlot123]

Unbelievable that TV, social media, and phone alerts were sent out when the electrical grid was down, fibre optics was down, power poles were down. Sirens, that do not mean evacuate, were not used even though they were touted as the best in the world alert system. Alert to what? A tidal wave? An alert to a tidal wave does not mean evacuate because some tidal alerts are not big waves?

The sirens were not intended to be used for fire storms. We know that today.

I'm curious. Were the sirens located at the top of poles in the neighbourhood? During an electrical outage and a fire? Temperatures that roasted cars? This seems more like a mismanagement issue than a climate change issue.

I am asking myself if there was any system to warn other islands. The Big Island. I have been to the Pearl Harbor twice. Did they know that there was fire and people in the ocean? Did they send ships? Could they even be aware?

In general, this problem, alert, evacuate, can happen anywhere. I am thinking that we all, people living here, might get into a precarious situation in any moment. We need instructions now about preparedness to the situation when disaster strikes, and the power grid and internet is down.

I am far from blaming FEMA or Coast Guard because we all seem to rely on power grid, water, cellphones. This is how we all think. Now at least these questions are being asked. Our thinking was flawed. Someone better start working at answers.

Period.

 

[DeDee]

Oh they are. That's Front St.

Also, the Wo Hing Museum. I took this photo too.

I caught a businessman walking a dusty street surrounded by utter devastation interviewed who said his business is along Front Street. It's gone. His home is gone. He said, without pity but with strength, "It'll be a long, long, time to rebuild what we've lost, but we will."

I admired the humbled man for standing with faith and hope in the midst of miles of destruction.

There are tons of metal from burned automobiles that must be towed somewhere. Where will they take useless items, metal parts, stoves and appliances, burned and warped scraps, things that need to be dumped on their tiny island? Can it be recycled? They'll need warehouses to house the incoming supplies of wood, flooring, etal, required to begin rebuilding this beautiful island. It feels overwhelming.

 

[Cryptic]

I have a feeling this is going to be like 9/11, and some people's bodies have simply disappeared.

I agree.

Then factor in that Lahaina could well of had a mix of long term residents and far more temporary residents staying in the area as either tourists on extended stays, or people seeking work in the local tourism industry.

The sky high real estate prices then mix with the areas natural beauty and "good vibe appeal".

This could lead to alot of people living temporarily in rented rooms, or in some cases, sub rented rooms, or even sub sub rented rooms with rotating room mates.

Which in turn could make it very difficult for authorities to determine who exactly resided where, who has later resurfaced- and who, sadly became a fatality.

 

[Cryptic]

MOO, this is the result when political hacks are promoted to positions of authority, when their only qualifications for the position is their ability to be toadys.

My general understanding is that Hawaii's traditional strengths such as close family ties to extended families and life time loyalty to friends has metamorphised into a system where factors such as...

Who one knows, what one's last name is- and by extension ethnicity or sub ethnicity is, what one can offer in return can matter far more than ability in regards to obtaining employment and promotions with the government.

 

[Herat]

Death toll at 99 and 1000 people still not accounted for.

This video from Daily Mail shows an incredible scene as hundreds of people are huddled on the rocky beach with embers and smoke swirling around them as flames are clearly visible on the bank. I pray that they made it out alive.

Hawaii wildfire death toll approaches 100 and is expected to DOUBLE

Officials are expected to announce the identities of several more victims today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Herat]

Death toll at 99 and 1000 people still not accounted for.

This video from Daily Mail shows an incredible scene as hundreds of people are huddled on the rocky beach with embers and smoke swirling around them as flames are clearly visible on the bank. I pray that they made it out alive.

Hawaii wildfire death toll approaches 100 and is expected to DOUBLE

Officials are expected to announce the identities of several more victims today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

People are sitting in the water as well as huddled under the bank. Several have towels on their heads or covering their faces. They all look stunned, as can well be expected.

 

[Gemmie]

People are sitting in the water as well as huddled under the bank. Several have towels on their heads or covering their faces. They all look stunned, as can well be expected.

Where is the crying Response option? I have a VERY high threshold for crying when it comes to tragedy. It takes a lot to make me cry (unless it's animals, then my threshold is very low). That vid clip did me in. Bawling like a baby over here.

And the thing is... with how things are in the world these days, that can happen just about anywhere so watching that is scary as heck. I lived through something that could have been like HI in 2020. I was all packed and ready to go but had no idea where that was going to be. Scary world we live in.

My heart and tears go out to all of them. May they have a quick rebound, it's urgently needed.

 

[whitelilac]

Nowhere is immune

Fire in south of France rages though campsite and 500 hectares of land

Blaze in popular tourist area in the Pyrenees forced evacuation of 2,000 people before it was brought under control

www.theguardian.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/07/23/rhodes-wildfires-evacuations-flights-canceled/

Fears of new wildfires as blistering 37C heat sparks warnings over extreme weather

Though the Odemira wildfire was tamed on Wednesday morning, 100 municipalities remain at maximum risk

www.independent.co.uk

World disasters and emergencies | Stories | British Red Cross

First-hand experiences and insights from people who have been affected by disasters and emergencies in different parts of the world.

www.redcross.org.uk

NT authorities say this bushfire season will be the worst in a decade. Here's why

Authorities predict 80 per cent of the Northern Territory will burn from bushfires by March in a once-in-a-decade event.

www.abc.net.au

https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-change/el-nino-threatens-to-cause-bad-and-big-bushfire-year-in-2023/news-story/d9e6c617e63c8ee258c34cd5eb386f77

not the mention Canada and the US

Here, where I live on the CA coast, we've already had 5 local fires. Fortunately quickly controlled, access is good. But there was no wind. Wind and embers scare me to death.

 

[wary]

Hawaii has a robust emergency siren warning system. It sat silent during the deadly wildfires​

“There wasn’t really an evacuation notice for us,” Millington said. The real warning, he said, came from the “huge plume of black smoke” in the sky over Lahaina.

[...]

The cell phone alert “was useless,” said Millington, who owns a hot sauce company in the historic town. “We have tsunami warnings that I think should have been utilized… So many of us … felt like we had absolutely no warning.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/12/us/hawaii-emergency-warning-system-maui-wildfires/index.html

Robust? I’ve been seeing that word a lot. I assume it’s some sort of talking point. (I realize this is a quotation.) Since when does ‘robust’ mean ‘fails when needed, and sends out false alarms when not needed?’ (For the latter, check out the Hawaiian Missile Crisis of 2018.)

 

[otto]

SBMFF

Or could it be a bit of both? A mismanagement issue amidst climate change?

In Canada, fires are identified as human caused, or natural. An example of a natural fire, which could be attributed to climate, is lightning strike. Examples of human caused fires are sparks from all terrain vehicles, camp fires, and downed power poles.

At this time, the Lahaina fire is investigated in relation to downed power lines that remained live during high winds. In some countries, that is a human caused fire, which is unrelated to climate.

 

[airportwoman]

Death toll at 99 and 1000 people still not accounted for.

This video from Daily Mail shows an incredible scene as hundreds of people are huddled on the rocky beach with embers and smoke swirling around them as flames are clearly visible on the bank. I pray that they made it out alive.

Hawaii wildfire death toll approaches 100 and is expected to DOUBLE

Officials are expected to announce the identities of several more victims today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I also suspect that some of them drowned and were swept out to sea in the rough water.

 

[Gemmie]

Saw HE (Hawaiian Electric Industries) was tanking late in the day. It was down more than -31% at the close of the market, and up just a little in after hours trading.

Source

Investors are dumping the stock.

Hawaiian Electric shares drop another 31% as liability concerns mount​

Hawaiian Electric Industries, which supplies roughly 95% of the state’s residents with power, traces its roots back to 1891, just a decade after King Kalakaua met Thomas Edison to see the incandescent light bulb. Now, the utility is facing what’s shaping up to be the biggest-ever test over its future.

Relentless selling on Monday wiped more than a $1 billion from the company’s value as the stock plunged by a third in its biggest loss on record. Shares extended the freefall today, shedding 31% after Hawaiian Electric was cut to junk by S&P Global Ratings.

Investors are dumping holdings amid increasing scrutiny over power equipment as the possible source of the deadly Maui wildfires.

Analysts are starting to raise questions over whether Hawaiian Electric, one of the smallest publicly traded U.S. utilities, will be able to withstand the pressure if it does end up being at fault.

To be clear, no official cause of the wildfire, which has become the deadliest in the U.S. in more than a century, has been identified. And it could be weeks — even months — before any investigation is finalized.

More here: Hawaiian Electric shares drop another 31% as liability concerns mount

 

[10ofRods]

Saw HE (Hawaiian Electric Industries) was tanking late in the day. It was down more than -31% at the close of the market, and up just a little in after hours trading.

View attachment 441114

Source

Investors are dumping the stock.

Hawaiian Electric shares drop another 31% as liability concerns mount​

Hawaiian Electric Industries, which supplies roughly 95% of the state’s residents with power, traces its roots back to 1891, just a decade after King Kalakaua met Thomas Edison to see the incandescent light bulb. Now, the utility is facing what’s shaping up to be the biggest-ever test over its future.

Relentless selling on Monday wiped more than a $1 billion from the company’s value as the stock plunged by a third in its biggest loss on record. Shares extended the freefall today, shedding 31% after Hawaiian Electric was cut to junk by S&P Global Ratings.

Investors are dumping holdings amid increasing scrutiny over power equipment as the possible source of the deadly Maui wildfires.

Analysts are starting to raise questions over whether Hawaiian Electric, one of the smallest publicly traded U.S. utilities, will be able to withstand the pressure if it does end up being at fault.

To be clear, no official cause of the wildfire, which has become the deadliest in the U.S. in more than a century, has been identified. And it could be weeks — even months — before any investigation is finalized.

More here: Hawaiian Electric shares drop another 31% as liability concerns mount

This is another, terrible element to this disaster. Electricity already expensive and precarious in the islands.

Investors want to avoid what happened in California with the Thomas and other fires.

Now, when it gets very windy where I live, they send us power outage notices and then follow through locally when the winds are at a certain mph.

 

[whitelilac]

Rest in Peace

Families begin to identify relatives who died in Lahaina fire; hundreds more ‘unaccounted for’ | Maui Now

The names of people who died in the Lahaina fire are now beginning to become public by their family members.

mauinow.com

 

[Cryptic]

This is another, terrible element to this disaster. Electricity already expensive and precarious in the islands.

Needless to say, Hawaii is a unique state.

I have a vague understanding that this uniqueness extends to their trial, appellate and Supreme courts all of which might have a history of doing their own thing, for their own reasons, on their own time.

I have a suspicion that Hawaiian electricity is going to stay Hawaiian and that Hawaii's sole electrical company is not going to be sued to the point of collapse. Investors will return.

 

[Gemmie]

Needless to say, Hawaii is a unique state.

I have a vague understanding that this uniqueness extends to their trial, appellate and Supreme courts all of which might have a history of doing their own thing, for their own reasons, on their own time.

I have a suspicion that Hawaiian electricity is going to stay Hawaiian and that Hawaii's sole electrical company is not going to be sued to the point of collapse. Investors will return.

Worse case scenario according to the article:

If the utility is held liable in a worst-case scenario, it may be forced to restructure in a bankruptcy, or it could be taken over in a government bailout, Pourreza said. In the near term, Hawaiian Electric could face a liquidity crunch with banks hesitating to loan the company money needed to fund its operations given the potential liability risk, he said.

“If you are a lender to the company, I think you’re going to take a step back and say: I’m going to wait to see how things play out,” he said.

Hawaiian Electric shares drop another 31% as liability concerns mount | Honolulu Star-Advertiser

Hawaiian Electric Industries, which supplies roughly 95% of the state’s residents with power, traces its roots back to 1891, just a decade after King Kalakaua met Thomas Edison to see the incandescent light bulb. Now, the utility is facing what’s shaping up to be the biggest-ever test over its...

www.staradvertiser.com

 

[otto]

Worse case scenario according to the article:

If the utility is held liable in a worst-case scenario, it may be forced to restructure in a bankruptcy, or it could be taken over in a government bailout, Pourreza said. In the near term, Hawaiian Electric could face a liquidity crunch with banks hesitating to loan the company money needed to fund its operations given the potential liability risk, he said.

“If you are a lender to the company, I think you’re going to take a step back and say: I’m going to wait to see how things play out,” he said.

Hawaiian Electric shares drop another 31% as liability concerns mount | Honolulu Star-Advertiser

Hawaiian Electric Industries, which supplies roughly 95% of the state’s residents with power, traces its roots back to 1891, just a decade after King Kalakaua met Thomas Edison to see the incandescent light bulb. Now, the utility is facing what’s shaping up to be the biggest-ever test over its...

www.staradvertiser.com

This is where the federal government needs to step in to support infrastructure. That is the only way to protect from future similar disasters. New protocols need to be established that: when Hurricanes blow by, the power has to be turned off. California learned the same hard lesson. Buildings need to be brick or concrete, not wood. How often do we see the brick fireplace standing in a burned-to-dust neighbourhood?

Hopefully the company will remain intact, supported by federal funding to rebuild necessary infrastructure as a disaster relief project.

$700 personal expenses plus a $500,000 bank loan with 2.5 - 4.0% interest rate to rebuild? Companies have a lower interest rate. Hawaiian Electric would immediately recover if the government announced and assumed financial cost for electricity infrastructure. There would be no liability because it is no one's fault - especially if the government is paying to rebuild Hawaiian Electric.

 

[otto]

Pre-existing mortgage payments would not be wiped out due to the fire. Does it become a tangle between federal bank loans, lower interest rates (4%), burned-house mortgages and insurance companies? They'll get their land back when cadavre dogs are finished and debris is taken away, I suppose.

Will banks holding mortgages for homes in and around Lahaina penalize clients for no-penalty early mortgage payout ... so they can take the federal 30 year 4% fixed rate mortgage to rebuild.

On the Island, where is the dump? Is the federal government paying to remove debris the size of an entire town from the Island? If so, to where?

Financial juggling act when all the paperwork was lost in a flash fire, including personal identification documents. It must be tiring for the people of Lahaina.

 

[otto]

I'm curious about where the Hawaiian people of Maui plan to put/store/export the debris from the incinerated town of Lahaina.

Can't drop it into the ocean - obviously, although I'm not convinced the USA navy would agree. Can't rebuild with the mess. Have authorities released any information about the clean up?

Is there a Maui sanitation department dump that can take the debris of a town?

 

[Cryptic]

Buildings need to be brick or concrete, not wood. How often do we see the brick fireplace standing in a burned-to-dust neighbourhood?

Though I agree about brick and concrete being more fire proof, part of Lahaina's charm was the historic wooden buildings. I would not be surprised if a certain amount of relatively modern construction in the area also tended to follow the historical precedent for a more uniform look.

In addition, there could be other advantages to wooden buildings in Hawaii such as less interior heat retention and therefore, less need for AC.