McCanns launch new appeal

[Jayelles]

However..that was NOT his original story. Originally he said he did not see Madeleine and that he thought she had gone in the parents room. As i said...stories changed

No Isabella, you do not know he said that. It may be a fact that it ws reported he said that. That is not the same thing as saying it is a fact that he said it.

If you can produce the source, I'm willing to look at it. I'm actually still waiting for you to produce ANY source I've asked you for. I think you find you are obliged to post sources to back up your claims of "fact" on this forum.

 

[Jayelles]

It is not evidence of a kidnapping. It is a fact only that the child has gone missing. In fact, absent a ransom note or other witnesses present at the time of the abduction, it has no precedence over any other theory for the cause. The effect is merely the missing child. The cause is unknown.

The effect of a child missing may be due to the cause of kidnapping, but statistically speaking, the absence of a missing child is far more likely to be due to parental act than anything else. So if police begin with a leaning towards parental involvement, they are at least backed up by statistics.

And yes, I do very much believe that two parents, who find one child lost ("Gone" as Kate said) beyond recovery, could logically analyze the situation and under the fear and grief and trauma, find it reasonable to do something like hide their daughter's death to save their other two children.

Desperate people do unbelievable things to save their children. Anybody who has read Holocaust accounts knows that desperate people can do unbelievable things. The McCanns are well aware of the nightmares of "care" in Great Britain, which we call foster care here in the U.S. They know what government bureaucracy can be like.

They were not willing to bet losing the twins on the government acts of two countries.

If you think that two doctors could not make a rational (in their mind) decision like that under stress, then perhaps you do not know enough doctors.

And as well: The existence of some false stories about the McCanns does not mean ALL negative facts or articles about them are false. That is a logical fallacy. If I falsely say you are a drunk, that does not mean you are not perhaps a liar but not a drunk. The two facts exist independently of each other.

Or as Mr. Texana says, "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then."

Of course some false stories doesn't mean all the stories are false but it does mean the source is unreliable and should be taken with a pinch of salt until proved otherwise.

Supposing the tabloids were pundits and the stories were betting tips. WOuld you all still be listening to these pundits that got it so horribly wrong 99% of the time?

Actually, I rather fear some of you would

 

[Jayelles]

Personally speaking i dont believe its as wide spread as you believe it is - and IF it used a lot..its confined to specific hotels that Mark Warner use. I have maybe stayed in Spain Majorca Greece Cyprus etc around 25-30 times and i have never ONCE seen this advertised. Not a single time. I have in fact asked a friend of mines grandmother about this ( she has shares in a hotel chain in Spain) and shes horrified that any hotel would let this happen.

As she just commented to me - hotel bedrooms get broken into all the time so who would be careless enough to leave there children there?

They are usually offered in the better hotels.

 

[Jayelles]

What you have to go and "figure" is the interview that she gave to Panorama was probably nearly a YEAR after the interview she gave to the paper ...sorry

As for the other..it would depend on how she died to be honest. Ie say of drugs...and if she was already dead its kind of late to take her to the hospital to be resuccitated. Also..would depend on how long she had been dead...cos they couldnt take her to the hospital and say it just happened if it was in fact some time ago. I can think of reasons why they would hide the body...i guess many could think of reasons. Ie they didnt want to lose the twins..they didnt want to lose there jobs..there friends didnt want to lose there jobs...or kids.

And no..the old links were removed BEFORE anything was found to be libellous about them.

Oh please post a link to this interview. You are "go figuring" on the grounds that she gave an interview to a newspaper that the McCanns had sued. Now you are saying the interview took place long before the McCanns sued.

What IS your point?

It's interesting that none of your "sources" can be produced. Oh yes - the McCanns got them removed because they wanted to suppress the "truth".

The McCanns say "Jump Tabloids" and the tabloids said "How high McCanns?"

You say the newspapers remove the stories because a Cabinet Minister tells them to. What about all the stories they WRITE about cabinet ministers? Why don't they remove them too?

Another little matter you forget is that Rupert Murdoch owns half the newspapers in the UK and he has a policy of not settling lawsuits. He does NOT bend over and accept a spanking from anyone - not matter if they are a cabinet minister or not. This was very much in evidence in the JonBenet Ramsey case when the Ramseys tried to sue Fox News (also owned by Murdoch). Fox were the only sue-ee which did not back down when litigated against by the Ramseys.

The MDI theory (McCanns did it) only works if you ignore facts or factor in a conspiracy.

 

[badhorsie]

So you know Madeleine is dead. :waitasec:
I'm sure the PJ would be interested to hear your "evidence" as they didn't find any.

And it's clear you don't know me Isabella as I have said many times I don't like the baby listening system. I can easily separate baby listening though from the cruel accusations that the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance.

And it's a "fact" baby listening is legal in Europe, widely used and still being offered - even now. As can be confirmed by google!!

So even though many people may not aprove of it - there are still many people who still do.

Baby listening services WERE NOT AVAILABLE IN Mark Warners Ocean Club in PDL as it was not deemed safe due to the layout.
Yet the MCs did it anyway, they have changed their story from 15 min checks to hourly checks and back again.

I am not perfect by any means but I WOULD NOT leave my children alone in an apartment while I went out.
This is not an English custom as has been suggested by Mr C Mitchell.
We specifically holidayed in southern Europe as it is acceptable to take your childen out with you in the evenings.
I don't know what has happened to Madeleine but her parent's behaviour disgusts me

 

[Jayelles]

Baby listening services WERE NOT AVAILABLE IN Mark Warners Ocean Club in PDL as it was not deemed safe due to the layout.
Yet the MCs did it anyway, they have changed their story from 15 min checks to hourly checks and back again.

I am not perfect by any means but I WOULD NOT leave my children alone in an apartment while I went out.
This is not an English custom as has been suggested by Mr C Mitchell.
We specifically holidayed in southern Europe as it is acceptable to take your childen out with you in the evenings.
I don't know what has happened to Madeleine but her parent's behaviour disgusts me

Pity you're still stuck on that 23 months on.

Wish we could focus on Madeleine.

 

[april4sky]

Baby listening services WERE NOT AVAILABLE IN Mark Warners Ocean Club in PDL as it was not deemed safe due to the layout.
Yet the MCs did it anyway, they have changed their story from 15 min checks to hourly checks and back again.

I am not perfect by any means but I WOULD NOT leave my children alone in an apartment while I went out.
This is not an English custom as has been suggested by Mr C Mitchell.
We specifically holidayed in southern Europe as it is acceptable to take your childen out with you in the evenings.
I don't know what has happened to Madeleine but her parent's behaviour disgusts me

Mark Warner did offer a baby listening service at the resort at one time. According to reports it was discontinued as it was too spread out, which suggests if it hadn't been they would still be operating the system as they still do at other resorts.

And the system is legal and still offered in the UK so Clarence Mitchell is correct.

If you are so disgusted why haven't you tried to get the law changed?

Mark Warners 07 brochure - Towards the back is the Childcare Information
http://www.markwarner.co.uk/e-brochure/summer07_ebrochure/default.aspx

Mark Warner were still advertising baby listening for ALL their resorts when the McCanns booked so they didn't know until they arrived that it had been discontinued.

Things may have changed but baby listening was offered, and may still be offered at the other resorts. This wouldn't happen if there wasn't a demand........Geeeez there must be many many many bad parents!

 

[Jayelles]

Thank you for finding this April.

 

[Refugee]

Its really quite incredible that people are still trying to defend the McCanns!

Yet after all this time and all these attempts to now use this passing time to make excuses for them, they still seem to remain the only possible culprits!

Lucky we have good memories isnt it!

I was amused to read one of the usual suspects above now claiming that a missing child was proof of an abductor in itself!

How ludicrous is that one!

There ws no abductor and the McCanns have not told (and continue not to tell) the truth - in my view these are the only facts we have!

But park those thoughts and think on this....would a couple whose child cried the previous night and were told by her she had cried - find this 'puzzling'? Would they then go out again the next night?

They'd have to be callous or liars!

 

[Refugee]

Baby listening services WERE NOT AVAILABLE IN Mark Warners Ocean Club in PDL as it was not deemed safe due to the layout.
Yet the MCs did it anyway, they have changed their story from 15 min checks to hourly checks and back again.

I am not perfect by any means but I WOULD NOT leave my children alone in an apartment while I went out.
This is not an English custom as has been suggested by Mr C Mitchell.
We specifically holidayed in southern Europe as it is acceptable to take your childen out with you in the evenings.
I don't know what has happened to Madeleine but her parent's behaviour disgusts me

Indeed!

Why did Dianne Webster - an odd one out - not babysit? Was she alone? Seems unlikely!

Why didnt Kate go check with Jane when she found madeleine 'missing'?

Was it perhaps because the whole scenario is a fabrication?

No logical person can doubt that the McCanns are at best child neglectors and at worst....!

 

[Refugee]

Thank you for finding this April.

Yes, lets not focus on the pepetrators but on the victim!

Poor parents, they didnt mean to be bad parents.....pity maddie payed the price isnt it!

The McCanns and their supporters are the kind of people who, if they placed their child in the fast lane, would blame the car that hit her and not their action!

Why do their supporters want the focus to be on Madeleine and not on investigating how she came to be missing? Surely the best palce to begin to follow a trail is the point of departure?

Or is this a case of distraction? I know what I think!

 

[Refugee]

Mark Warner did offer a baby listening service at the resort at one time. According to reports it was discontinued as it was too spread out, which suggests if it hadn't been they would still be operating the system as they still do at other resorts.

And the system is legal and still offered in the UK so Clarence Mitchell is correct.

If you are so disgusted why haven't you tried to get the law changed?

Mark Warners 07 brochure - Towards the back is the Childcare Information
http://www.markwarner.co.uk/e-brochure/summer07_ebrochure/default.aspx

Mark Warner were still advertising baby listening for ALL their resorts when the McCanns booked so they didn't know until they arrived that it had been discontinued.

Things may have changed but baby listening was offered, and may still be offered at the other resorts. This wouldn't happen if there wasn't a demand........Geeeez there must be many many many bad parents!

Oh for goodness sake!

They abandoned her, knew she'd cried, and were 'puzzled'!

They should not have abandoned her....they should have both answered police questions...they should accept responsibility and they should ask the proper authorities to investigate objectively.

The only reason they dont is because they know they have lied and will be caught out - hence the distrations.

But why are people defending them? Odd isnt it?

 

[Jayelles]

I was amused to read one of the usual suspects above now claiming that a missing child was proof of an abductor in itself!

Please show me where I said a missing child is "proof" of an abduction.

 

[Jayelles]

Yes, lets not focus on the pepetrators but on the victim!

Poor parents, they didnt mean to be bad parents.....pity maddie payed the price isnt it!

The McCanns and their supporters are the kind of people who, if they placed their child in the fast lane, would blame the car that hit her and not their action!

Why do their supporters want the focus to be on Madeleine and not on investigating how she came to be missing? Surely the best palce to begin to follow a trail is the point of departure?

Or is this a case of distraction? I know what I think!

Yes, lets focus on find the missing child. Then we might get somewhere.

 

[Jayelles]

Yes, lets not focus on the pepetrators but on the victim!

Poor parents, they didnt mean to be bad parents.....pity maddie payed the price isnt it!

The McCanns and their supporters are the kind of people who, if they placed their child in the fast lane, would blame the car that hit her and not their action!

Why do their supporters want the focus to be on Madeleine and not on investigating how she came to be missing? Surely the best palce to begin to follow a trail is the point of departure?

Or is this a case of distraction? I know what I think!

madeleine McCann is missing. There is no proof she is dead. Let's keep looking for the live child instead of this constant distraction of bashing the parents.

 

[Refugee]

There is another theory, that Madeleine wakened up and wandered off in search of her parents and that she was snatched by someone opportunistically.

Do I think it's possible? Yes I do think this is feasible. However, I also think it would be more likely that she would be killled in this scenario because it would mean the snatching was unplanned and that the abductor would be unprepared. I think in this case, it is more likely that she would be abused, killed and dumped within a short period of time.

However, I think is is less likely that she wandered off because I think she'd find it difficult to open a door and I think there would be more chance that other people would notice a small child wandering the streets in her pjs. It would be terribly unlucky if the only person she encountered was a child abductor/killer.




I think that there is a good chance she is still alive if her abduction was a carefully planned "hit".

Another possibility is that whomever took her intended burglary and opportunistically took the child instead. There is some belief that David Westerfield may not have entered the vanDam home with the express intention of taking Danielle.

If criminals can plan burglaries, watch the homes to monitor the movements of the occupants and target vulnerable houses - i.e. no pets, secluded back gardens, discernible routine of occupants ... why not a child abductor?

But surely it is more sensible to address all possibilities?

Especially as the Police in the matter were sure the parents were not being honest?

Why pursue the least likely option as if it were the only option?

Why indeed! Its a classic case of attempted distraction.

She didnt wander far, I suspect she fell on the stairs as she tried to find her parents. Thats where the dogs detected blood. They came back, found her, took her in, but too late to save her. Blood under the tiles.

End of story.

 

[Jayelles]

But surely it is more sensible to address all possibilities?

Especially as the Police in the matter were sure the parents were not being honest?

Why pursue the least likely option as if it were the only option?

Why indeed! Its a classic case of attempted distraction.

She didnt wander far, I suspect she fell on the stairs as she tried to find her parents. Thats where the dogs detected blood. They came back, found her, took her in, but too late to save her. Blood under the tiles.

End of story.

Map this out on a timeline for me and I'll consider it. Remember to build in time for attempted rescusitation, panic, planning and arguments.

 

[Texana]

Map this out on a timeline for me and I'll consider it. Remember to build in time for attempted rescusitation, panic, planning and arguments.

You forget that they would respond as doctors first; they would automatically push emotion back. It's second nature. And if she had been discovered dead and it was obvious that she had been that way for some time, they would not have tried to revive her.

The first horror would be finding your child deceased (again as I believe, from a subdural hematoma.) The second horror would be realizing that you would have to explain this. Of course it was an accidental fall, but she was left alone. Perhaps they would blame you. Or worse, perhaps they would say you beat her or struck her. The twins will be lost as well.

These are highly intelligent and disciplined people. Just because you would not be able to think straight and work out something doesn't mean they could not.

In those desperate hours they also made a kind of bargain: They would work for children who were truly missing. It would be their penance.

 

[Isabella]

They are usually offered in the better hotels.

Really? Well not in any of the 5 star hotels ive stayed in they dont

When i first met my husband...he had a young daughter and we specifically looked at facilities for kids ( not bcause we wanted to dump our kids for the holidays like some) and i have never ever seen anything like that advertised.

 

[Isabella]

madeleine McCann is missing. There is no proof she is dead. Let's keep looking for the live child instead of this constant distraction of bashing the parents.

Then let her parents - the last known people to see her alive actually cooperate in trying to find her.