McCanns launch new appeal

[Texana]

madeleine McCann is missing. There is no proof she is dead. Let's keep looking for the live child instead of this constant distraction of bashing the parents.

There is credible and scientific evidence that a corpse was present in the McCanns' apartment and in the wheel well of the car they had access to during that time period.

Somebody died in that apartment. There is no record of anyone else dying there. There is no credible evidence that Madeleine (who unfortunately had a very distinctive eye pupil) has been seen alive since the day before. There has not been the slightest activity towards the substantial reward offered for her.

It is not abandoning Madeleine to acknowledge that there is more evidence she is not alive, than evidence she is.

It is what it is.

 

[april4sky]

Respectfully snipped

There is credible and scientific evidence that a corpse was present in the McCanns' apartment and in the wheel well of the car they had access to during that time period.

Not according to any of the experts conclusions in the final report.

In fact no evidence was found of any crime

Can you provide comfimation of your claims Texana?

 

[Texana]

Respectfully snipped
Not according to any of the experts conclusions in the final report.

In fact no evidence was found of any crime

Can you provide comfimation of your claims Texana?

Of the cadaver dog responses and alerts?

April, you have got to be kidding.

Has every single trace of this been swept from the Internet?

Clarence is even more efficient than I thought.

(And as a side note, if one doesn't respect Portuguese authorities, their police, or their competence and capabilities regarding abducted children, one can hardly quote the "final report" as being credible.)

 

[april4sky]

Of the cadaver dog responses and alerts?

April, you have got to be kidding.

Has every single trace of this been swept from the Internet?

Clarence is even more efficient than I thought.

(And as a side note, if one doesn't respect Portuguese authorities, their police, or their competence and capabilities regarding abducted children, one can hardly quote the "final report" as being credible.)

As I thought there is no confirmation.

And no Texana I am not kidding - nor am I gullible.
Nor do I buy into lots of misinformation.

No one knows what the dogs alerted to as forensics were extensively done and the conclusions presented.
I do believe the dogs handlers conclusions because I think they must know their own dogs better than any of us.

I doubt very much that every single thing has been wiped from the internet....but if your having trouble you can always confirm the "facts" in the final report.

I certainly don't trust the PJ involved with Amaral and they are the ones I critisise.
And I have no reason to doubt there being many good Portuguese cops.

And I believe the conclusions of the final report because the PJ couldn't include their lies as they may have had to provide proof in a court of law.
This wasn't the case with all the malicious lies they leaked to the press.

 

[Jayelles]

Respectfully snipped
Not according to any of the experts conclusions in the final report.

In fact no evidence was found of any crime

Can you provide comfimation of your claims Texana?

Texana's "proof" was the tabloids. As Isabella would say "Go figure"

 

[Jayelles]

You forget that they would respond as doctors first; they would automatically push emotion back. It's second nature. And if she had been discovered dead and it was obvious that she had been that way for some time, they would not have tried to revive her.

The first horror would be finding your child deceased (again as I believe, from a subdural hematoma.) The second horror would be realizing that you would have to explain this. Of course it was an accidental fall, but she was left alone. Perhaps they would blame you. Or worse, perhaps they would say you beat her or struck her. The twins will be lost as well.

These are highly intelligent and disciplined people. Just because you would not be able to think straight and work out something doesn't mean they could not.

In those desperate hours they also made a kind of bargain: They would work for children who were truly missing. It would be their penance.

You are absolutely 100% wrong in this. I have friends who are medics and they all say that when it comes to their own children, their medical calm goes right "oot the windae".

Just because they are doctors does not mean that if they found their daughter dead or dying that they'd calmly say "Let's dispose of her quickly, dessert is about to be served".

I am amazed at how you can speculate about this whilst simultaneously ignoring all facts and reason.

At no time did Kate and Gerry return to the flat together.

 

[Jayelles]

Of the cadaver dog responses and alerts?

April, you have got to be kidding.

Has every single trace of this been swept from the Internet?

Clarence is even more efficient than I thought.

(And as a side note, if one doesn't respect Portuguese authorities, their police, or their competence and capabilities regarding abducted children, one can hardly quote the "final report" as being credible.)

What is your explanation for the FACT that Eddie, same cadaver dog used in the McCann case alerted 27 times at the Jersey Children home. They found 2 ancient human bones, a cocunut shell and hundreds of animal bones. No bodies.

 

[april4sky]

You are absolutely 100% wrong in this. I have friends who are medics and they all say that when it comes to their own children, their medical calm goes right "oot the windae".

Just because they are doctors does not mean that if they found their daughter dead or dying that they'd calmly say "Let's dispose of her quickly, dessert is about to be served".

I am amazed at how you can speculate about this whilst simultaneously ignoring all facts and reason.

At no time did Kate and Gerry return to the flat together.

Bold is mine.

Sounds very familiar doesn't it?

We know certain sections of the press often do it.

 

[Isabella]

You are absolutely 100% wrong in this. I have friends who are medics and they all say that when it comes to their own children, their medical calm goes right "oot the windae".

Just because they are doctors does not mean that if they found their daughter dead or dying that they'd calmly say "Let's dispose of her quickly, dessert is about to be served".

I am amazed at how you can speculate about this whilst simultaneously ignoring all facts and reason.

At no time did Kate and Gerry return to the flat together.

With all respect your comments make no sense. As there is no credible idea of the last time she was seen...she could have died BEFORE they went out.

As to saying you dont know how she can speculate while ignoring facts and reason - well IMO it seems to work for you

 

[Isabella]

As I thought there is no confirmation.

And no Texana I am not kidding - nor am I gullible.
Nor do I buy into lots of misinformation.

No one knows what the dogs alerted to as forensics were extensively done and the conclusions presented.
I do believe the dogs handlers conclusions because I think they must know their own dogs better than any of us.

I doubt very much that every single thing has been wiped from the internet....but if your having trouble you can always confirm the "facts" in the final report.

I certainly don't trust the PJ involved with Amaral and they are the ones I critisise.
And I have no reason to doubt there being many good Portuguese cops.

And I believe the conclusions of the final report because the PJ couldn't include their lies as they may have had to provide proof in a court of law.
This wasn't the case with all the malicious lies they leaked to the press.

You dont believe the Pjs and yet you believe a report based on there findings?

And if you mean you dont believe the pjs when Amaral was there - he did in fact remain associated with the case/officers after he was removed from it.

I too find it amazing..you dont beleive the pjs yet you believe everything in the report...i wonder if the report said differently would you believe it then tho or say the PP was inept?

 

[april4sky]

You dont believe the Pjs and yet you believe a report based on there findings?

And if you mean you dont believe the pjs when Amaral was there - he did in fact remain associated with the case/officers after he was removed from it.

I too find it amazing..you dont beleive the pjs yet you believe everything in the report...i wonder if the report said differently would you believe it then tho or say the PP was inept?

I don't doubt you find it amazing Isabella. No worries.
Maybe "if you haven't already read the final report" you won't find it amazing when you do.

After all you do have confidence in the PJ so you just might find yourself agreeing with it.

And I don't think the PJ were inept - I know they were as their bungles are well and truly documented.

 

[Isabella]

I don't doubt you find it amazing Isabella. No worries.
Maybe "if you haven't already read the final report" you won't find it amazing when you do.

After all you do have confidence in the PJ so you just might find yourself agreeing with it.

And I don't think the PJ were inept - I know they were as their bungles are well and truly documented.

There bungles? I think there biggest bungle was letting Kate go the night she was made a arguido. They in fact didnt want to let her go.

It was well and truly documented how the mother of this " missing " child wouldnt answer questions asked by the pjs..or do a reconstruction to aid the Pjs. So..maybe you need to put the blame where its due?

And for the record..i dont blame the Pjs for the fiasco there. I blame the British police for it and the McCanns and there hired lackeys. MOO

 

[Jayelles]

With all respect your comments make no sense. As there is no credible idea of the last time she was seen...she could have died BEFORE they went out.

As to saying you dont know how she can speculate while ignoring facts and reason - well IMO it seems to work for you

"With all respect", you need to go back and read the post I was replying to. Perhaps then you will be able to make sense of my reply.

I am waiting for someone to explain why the McCanns would dispose of Madeleine's body rather than try to get her to a hospital if there was some kind of accident and how they would have managed to do everything they needed to do in the short period of time available and then calmly got to dinner with friends.

I'm all ears. Map it out and we'll discuss it. Remember to start at 6pm when Madeleine was last seen by independent witnesseds and end at 8.35 when they got to the dinner table first.

You can make any theory work if you ignore facts and factor in conspiracies.

 

[Isabella]

"With all respect", you need to go back and read the post I was replying to. Perhaps then you will be able to make sense of my reply.

I am waiting for someone to explain why the McCanns would dispose of Madeleine's body rather than try to get her to a hospital if there was some kind of accident and how they would have managed to do everything they needed to do in the short period of time available and then calmly got to dinner with friends.

I'm all ears. Map it out and we'll discuss it. Remember to start at 6pm when Madeleine was last seen by independent witnesseds and end at 8.35 when they got to the dinner table first.

You can make any theory work if you ignore facts and factor in conspiracies.

Anyone who has followed the case would know that David Payne is NOT an independant witness. He was one of the friends of the McCanns..a guy who other Drs had concerns about being near young children. Incidentally...knowing Madeleine was possibly missing..and having these statements from the Drs...and knowing that David Payne allegedly was one of the last people to see her before she "disappeared" i think its disgusting that Leicestershire Police waited some months to even give the Pjs this info.

Then before that we have Charlotte Pennington the nanny who says in one interview she last saw her at lunchtime then another interview at 5.30. In addition this woman was sacked shortly afterwards through drinking problems.

Yes your correct. If we ignore a lot of things ...you can make it fit to what you want.

 

[Texana]

Texana's "proof" was the tabloids. As Isabella would say "Go figure"

Nope.

And yes, the night before Madeleine went missing both McCanns returned to the flat together. If she had fallen the night before and had a subdural hematoma, they would have had time to be together.

I know doctors and nurses personally who don't react in personal crisis emotionally. They've told me so.

I do like how you dismiss as "tabloid" any report about the dogs. The dogs were not wrong on 200 previous occasions.

We've been through this "provide sources" comment; I used to spend enormous time going through my records, cutting and pasting, and then nothing in response. So I just don't do that anymore. Ofr if I provide the link, I hear "it's just a tabloid." So why bother?

As well, anybody who really wants the links, can go back in the threads. It's all there in the press threads, the Portuguese press threads, and the previous discussion threads.

Anyone who wants a link can find it. Nothing's been said in the six months--at least--that hasn't been said before.

 

[april4sky]

Respectfully snipped.

quote=Texana;3543444]
I do like how you dismiss as "tabloid" any report about the dogs. The dogs were not wrong on 200 previous occasions.

We've been through this "provide sources" comment; I used to spend enormous time going through my records, cutting and pasting, and then nothing in response. So I just don't do that anymore. Ofr if I provide the link, I hear "it's just a tabloid." So why bother?

As well, anybody who really wants the links, can go back in the threads. It's all there in the press threads, the Portuguese press threads, and the previous discussion threads.

Anyone who wants a link can find it. Nothing's been said in the six months--at least--that hasn't been said before.

Dogs alerting is not evidence Texana.
Why do think you know better than the expert dogs handlers conclusions?

And there are no links in threads here that confirm "evidence." .....though there are lots of smears.

And if you were linking tabloid articles without "quotes" from the arguidos, or from the PJ, confirming "proof" of a crime .......then you were not providing "PROOF."

But it does explain why you believe what you do.

With the release of the final report "its obvious" why press links are not being provided - they don't stand up to scutiny.

 

[Texana]

Respectfully snipped. Dogs alerting is not evidence Texana.
Why do think you know better than the expert dogs handlers conclusions?

And there are no links in threads here that confirm "evidence." .....though there are lots of smears.

And if you were linking tabloid articles without "quotes" from the arguidos, or from the PJ, confirming "proof" of a crime .......then you were not providing "PROOF."

But it does explain why you believe what you do.

With the release of the final report "its obvious" why press links are not being provided - they don't stand up to scutiny.

I don't read the arguidos website regularly, I think I've read it three times u in the past year.

Nor have I ever linked to the PJ, which is why I don't link to their final report now.

I always linked directly to the British media. Period.

And again, I have more respect for a well trained dog than I do for people who statistically speaking, may have had reason to conceal the truth of what happened to Madeleine. The dogs do not have personal attachments. hey would not get the fees they command if they could not produce credible results most of the time. Remember, just because a body wasn;'t found where the dogs alerted, doesn't mean that a body wasn't once there.

So yes, what they did is evidence. Had only one dog alerted in one spot,it would be questionable. But for both dogs to alert as they did, (same places, two locations) and for blood and dna evidence to then be recovered from their alerts and sent to a renowned British forensic labs for testing---

That's evidence.

 

[Jayelles]

Nope.

And yes, the night before Madeleine went missing both McCanns returned to the flat together. If she had fallen the night before and had a subdural hematoma, they would have had time to be together.

I know doctors and nurses personally who don't react in personal crisis emotionally. They've told me so.

I do like how you dismiss as "tabloid" any report about the dogs. The dogs were not wrong on 200 previous occasions.

We've been through this "provide sources" comment; I used to spend enormous time going through my records, cutting and pasting, and then nothing in response. So I just don't do that anymore. Ofr if I provide the link, I hear "it's just a tabloid." So why bother?

As well, anybody who really wants the links, can go back in the threads. It's all there in the press threads, the Portuguese press threads, and the previous discussion threads.

Anyone who wants a link can find it. Nothing's been said in the six months--at least--that hasn't been said before.

Tabloids articles are not official sources. We can see wuiter clearly on another thread that people get confused with direct interviews and quotes from other interviews.

We could get into an entire discussion about the quality of information and I'd be happy to do so. There are primary sources and secondary sources. Primary sources have more accuracy and integrity than secondary sources. Some of the "sources" you copied and pasted would have been at least secondary.... the PJ talks to the Portuguese reporter, who publishes it in his tabloid - rewording and rephrasing as he does so and putting his own slant on things. The British reporter picks up a translatin of the Portuguese report and copies it to HIS tabloid putting HIS slant on the translated version of the Portuguese reporter's interpretation of the PJ's interpretation of events....and so on.

 

[april4sky]

I don't read the arguidos website regularly, I think I've read it three times u in the past year.

Very wise! Neither would I now. Not after some of the things I have read about it.

Nor have I ever linked to the PJ, which is why I don't link to their final report now.

I didn't say you had linked to the PJ.

Oh dear the "reason" :waitasec: for not linking to the final report......Only anti-McCanns could possibly buy into that one. :doh:

Have you actually read any of the final report?

I always linked directly to the British media. Period.

Then please do if you can find "proof" against the McCanns in any of them.
And I think you will find the British press have reported on and printed parts of the final report.

And again, I have more respect for a well trained dog than I do for people who statistically speaking, may have had reason to conceal the truth of what happened to Madeleine. The dogs do not have personal attachments. hey would not get the fees they command if they could not produce credible results most of the time. Remember, just because a body wasn;'t found where the dogs alerted, doesn't mean that a body wasn't once there.

Texana it has nothing to do with respect. :waitasec:

I also respect cadaver dogs but I wouldn't believe for a second that I knew better than the dogs expert handlers, or their conclusions - Why do you?

So yes, what they did is evidence. Had only one dog alerted in one spot,it would be questionable. But for both dogs to alert as they did, (same places, two locations) and for blood and dna evidence to then be recovered from their alerts and sent to a renowned British forensic labs for testing---

That's evidence.

Not in any sense of the word is it evidence of Madeleines body Texana.

There is far more to it than dogs alerting which is why other tests have to be done - No conclusions can be drawn until those tests have been completed.

You can have no idea what the dogs alerted too so how you can conclude they alerted to Madeleine is anyones guess.:waitasec:

After extensive investigations there was NO evidence of Madeleine's "dead body" in the car.

Which is why abduction is still on the table.

 

[Jayelles]

It's a matter of perspective.

Saying you came second in a talent competition sounds great - unless it transpires that there were only two entries for the competition!

Saying a sniffer dog got it right on 200 previous occasions means nothing unless we know how many times it got it wrong too.

Eddie the dog wasn't "spot on" in the Jersey Children's home case. 27 alerts did not produce 27 bodies. These alerts didn't even produce one body.

I think sniffer dogs are terrific and I respect that they often find bodies and drugs, but we need to keep the value of these dogs in perspective. They have no way of telling us WHOSE blood they smell or how old the stain is. As long as there are other explanations, we need to keep an open mind.

I also accept that statistically speaking, parents are most likely to kill their children. Absolutely I do. I think the McCanns should have been suspected as should their friends. It would have been a nice tidy solution to the mystery. However, the evidence simply does not support this. You cannot make the evidence as we know it fit a friend or family being involved unless you ignore facts and factor in a great deal of conspiracy theory.

Behaviour is important. The McCanns have no history of violence towards their children or of mental instability. They would not be allowed to work as doctors if they were mentally unstable. By all accounts they are loving parents who vacationed who took holidays with other families and ensured their children had plenty to keep them occupied and stimulated. They don't fit the profile of parents who kill. Such parents inevitably have some kind of history with drug or alcohol abuse or financial problems or mental health problems. There is plenty written about this.

There is no reason to suppose that the McCanns would have chosen to dispose of their daughter rather than seek medical help for her if she had suffered an accident or sudden illness. In fact, the notion is quite ridiculous. I cannot conceive of any parent let along a couple of doctors who would not seek help under such circumstances.

If one of them had "lost it" and killed Madeleine then there is NO WAY that they could have disposed of her body on his/her own and without the knowledge of the other and so they would have to both have been in on it for it to be feasible. There starts the conspiracy. You are now not just depending on one of them to act calm and hoodwink everyone into thinking things were normal - but both of them. Two parents who wanted children so badly that they underwent IVF to have them. Respectable people who work in one of the most caring of all professions.

Not just that, but these dog alerts which cause the most damage of all to this case DEPEND on the McCanns having hidden Madeleine's body for three weeks - by which time it would have been decomposing badly and stinking from a great distance away, yet no-one reported smelling a rotting corpse.

This is all covering old ground.

I'm still waiting on a McCann-did-it timeline which doesn't ignore any of the facts. How did they do it in the time? How were they able to deal with the sudden death of their precious daughter, calmly dispose of her body and then go to dinner, eat and drink and pretend nothing had happened? Then why prolong this agony for one and a half hours? Why not "discover" her missing at the 9pm check and get the agony over with? Why continue socialising for another hour?

I don't accept theories which have Madeleine dead earlier than 6pm. Too many reliable independent witnesses were able to prove or disprove this. To suggest otherwise is quite frankly, grasping at straws.

PS - I think the British tabloids are just as bad as the Portuguese ones. They also reported the garbage stories about Gerry not being madeleine's dad and that her real dad had been traced via the infertility clinic to Birmingham. That story was wrong on so many fronts. Not least of all because fertility clinics are bound by the EU DPA. No way would they have handed information like that over to a newspaper reporter on request. Data protection legislation would have made that very difficult indeed. That was the most appalling of all the appalling smear stories about this couple.