MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #1

[K_Z]

K_Z your reasoning is very convincing and you could very well be right. I also believe they are having the results rechecked and double checked again. Because they know if they go before the public with vague statements that the officers were cleared, Baltimore will errupt again.

One thing I have noted is that by this time we would usually hear from the police comm. vague statements vowing that if the officers were the cause, he would make sure they came to justice. We haven't heard that so far.

IMO this may still go before the GJ though, just to make it clear that they aren't hiding anything.

I do believe there will be repercussions on at least some of the officers. For failing to get medical care and for not buckling him in.

BBM. I agree. I think ultimately the officers will probably be fired. That pretty much has to happen. That's a pretty severe punishment. They certainly can't ever go back out on the street as a uniformed officer again-- they'd be targeted and killed. But I'm not sure at all that they should face criminal charges. Let's hear a lot more detail about his injuries and what happened before and after the video.

Strangely, if the injuries and circumstances SUPPORT the wrongdoing of the LEOs, they are STILL not releasing anything. And that information, released strategically before the riots, could have prevented the whole burning, looted, riotous criminal mess. So if there IS objective information that proves the officers should be held accountable, the Mayor, Governor, and all of them are completely responsible for letting Baltimore burn at the hands of the rioting urban terrorists. IMO.

 

[MissSunshine]

Baltimores State's Attorney is very new to her position. She started Jan 2015 and is like one of the youngest SA's at 34. IMO, she is about as competent as the mayor...when she indicted Michael Johnson for Phylicia Barnes murder after he was already aquitted for it, I kind of lost my faith in her. It will be interesting to see how she handles this.

 

[KEVINinTO]

BBM

What info do you believe is being withheld that is "not congruent with the "message" of the riots and protestors"?

If there is objective medical information that would exonerate the arresting officers, how could withholding that info lead to further riots?

It would lead to further riots because - IMO - as with the MB and TM cases - the protesters don't care about facts. All they want to see is police officers put behind bars. If there is evidence from the autopsy that would exonerate the officers there would be a sudden realization that charges will not be forthcoming and this will drive the protesters crazy mad. They don't care about justice. They are only looking for a pound of flesh. The fact that the family have not released the results of their private autopsy and the fact that the official autopsy is being kept under wraps leads me to believe that the results of the autopsy's are exculpatory for the officers.

 

[K_Z]

BBM

What info do you believe is being withheld that is "not congruent with the "message" of the riots and protestors"?

If there is objective medical information that would exonerate the arresting officers, how could withholding that info lead to further riots?

I posted earlier in the thread that I really want to know the specifics of the mechanism of injury. That information may implicate the officers, or may help to exonerate them. We just don't know, because, IMO, everyone is quite happy to let the vague and INDIRECT information hover out there inflaming passions.

People hear "fractured", "severed", and "crushed", and THINK they understand what happened. There is a rush to judgment to blame police for excessive force, when it may or may not have happened.

I want to know the ACTUAL information, not some sanitized, imprecise, or whitewashed version. I want to know what happened before the cell phone video. I want to know his medical history, and his law enforcement history. I want to know what happened in the van, when they discovered him unresponsive, and what happened during his course of hospitalization. I want to know which specific vertebrae were fractured, and what KIND of facture occurred. I want to know what his laryngeal injuries were. I want to know the EXACT level and pathology of the spinal cord injury. I want to know if he had a head injury. I want to know what his medical history is. I know that there are numerous ways to arrive at "fractured, severed, and crushed"-- and not all of those ways implicate the police for excessive force.

And if there is objective information that exonerates the officers, Baltimore and other cities will surely burn again, IMO. No question. There will definitely be fresh rioting and violence, and fresh targeting of police officers. These officers HAVE to be guilty of *something* for any kind of peace to hold, IMO. That's the dilemma facing authorities, IMO.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Ok I have a question for our "medically educated" members.

What, in an autopsy, would show conclusively that an injury was self-inflicted? IOW how would a coroner be able to positively say that "this injury" or "that injury" was a result of self-infliction?

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Another question -

Do the transport vans have cameras - at least in the drivers compartment? Probably not - guess I just answered my own question.

 

[mysteriew]

We picked up one interesting little tidbit. FG was involved in a suit over lead poisoning. From what we have found we believe that could be related to the fracture. Do you know anything about that?

 

[mysteriew]

Another question -

Do the transport vans have cameras - at least in the drivers compartment? Probably not - guess I just answered my own question.

I saw or heard somewhere that there are no cameras in the van.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

I'm sitting here thinking about the spinal injury. I've heard it said that his spinal cord was 80% severed from his neck. Ok - for an injury like that to happen the head has to go forward and down. Kinda like doing a somersault type thing - KWIM? Along those lines of thinking, now is it possible for someone to do that type of fall, maneuver, whatever while in the back of a moving van - while handcuffed? I've also thought about the larynx being smashed. In the back of a van - you have "wheel wells" and I can see if you throw yourself forward (while handcuffed) and hit that wheel well with your throat - you could possibly smash it.

But the problem with all of this is that we will never know actually, exactly what happened - will we?

 

[K_Z]

There is definitely a correlation between lead poisoning and weakened bones over time-- but typically that means accelerated osteoporosis. More often, lead poisoning leads to neuro problems, lower IQ, etc. We did inpatient chelations in the 80's with inner city kids exposed to lead-- painful BAL shots and infusions for days. That said, FG didn't appear to be crippled from weakened bones, and reportedly was riding a bicycle when apprehended. I think the lead poisoning may be a red herring. He had neurobehavioral impact, but was only 25, and active, so I'm doubtful the lead made his bones so incredibly fragile he could thrash about and sever his spine-- yet move about in society and not injure himself, even riding a bike.

However, a hyperextension or flexion injury with or without a preceding velocity impact could have caused subluxation that damaged the cord. We just don't know. Yet.

Here is some brief reading about lead and bones:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15289167

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3386851/

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561115_4

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683156/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1257601/

 

[mysteriew]

I'm sitting here thinking about the spinal injury. I've heard it said that his spinal cord was 80% severed from his neck. Ok - for an injury like that to happen the head has to go forward and down. Kinda like doing a somersault type thing - KWIM? Along those lines of thinking, now is it possible for someone to do that type of fall, maneuver, whatever while in the back of a moving van - while handcuffed? I've also thought about the larynx being smashed. In the back of a van - you have "wheel wells" and I can see if you throw yourself forward (while handcuffed) and hit that wheel well with your throat - you could possibly smash it.

But the problem with all of this is that we will never know actually, exactly what happened - will we?

From what I remember of anatomy I believe forward and down are the natural range of the neck. Back and down is the problem.

 

[K_Z]

Remember that we don't know WHEN the spinal cord injury occurred. It could have been a contusion that progressed to a necrotic condition. We just don't know YET. Everyone is assuming the "severing" occurred at the time of arrest. It could have happened over time, from fragments. ETC. He was in the hospital a week before he died.

Also remember there is an element of "stretch" injury in many spinal cord injuries.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Here's another avenue of thought. A lot of FG's arrests were for heroin. Ok - was he high when arrested? And, if so, on what? We all know some drugs give people "superhuman" strength....................run with that for a few. If he wasn't - well then what are the effects of long term heroin use on the bones? Could that be a factor?

I understand they are still waiting for tox tests - is that right?

 

[K_Z]

Also remember that the lowest vertebral level, C-7, is responsible for little finger sensation and movement. An injury higher than C-7, and there is no "thrashing around".

So, if the vertebrae were fractured at the level of the larynx (C-3,4,5,6) in the original LE apprehension, and the cord acutely damaged at that level, he would have been quadriplegic and apneic. Remember the old adage, "C-3-4-5 keeps the diaphragm alive."

 

[KEVINinTO]

Sean Hannity interviewed the FG family lawyer and asked him about the internet rumor that FG had surgery to his spine or back. The lawyer gives an unconvincing "not that we are aware of". FG lived with his family at the time of his death. They would know for sure whether he did or didn't have spinal surgery and yet their lawyer is unable to give an unequivocal response to this question? Seems fishy to me.

Here is the interview:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/42030065...nrest/?playlist_id=930909813001#sp=show-clips

 

[K_Z]

Here's another avenue of thought. A lot of FG's arrests were for heroin. Ok - was he high when arrested? And, if so, on what? We all know some drugs give people "superhuman" strength....................run with that for a few. If he wasn't - well then what are the effects of long term heroin use on the bones? Could that be a factor?

I understand they are still waiting for tox tests - is that right?

Naw, heroin is an opioid. Opioids don't demineralize like that, but the lifestuyle effects could cause osteoporosis over decades, probably. Don't think heroin use in the short term (he was only 25) would have any effect on bone density. Lots of other adverse effects in the body, but bone density would be a VERY long term effect of the lifestyle effects of heroin abuse.

But I have read he had multiple arrests for drug use and selling. I won't be surprised if he is tox positive. That alone could be very socially inflammatory, since it will portray him as a criminal. It would detract from the story that he was minding his own business and only made "eye contact" with police when they rushed in to arrest him. We'll see.

 

[sorrell skye]

And if there is objective information that exonerates the officers, Baltimore and other cities will surely burn again, IMO. No question. There will definitely be fresh rioting and violence, and fresh targeting of police officers. These officers HAVE to be guilty of *something* for any kind of peace to hold, IMO. That's the dilemma facing authorities, IMO.

RSBM

TY for your response, KZ.

I would like to believe that if there is objective evidence that exonerates the officers, then FG's family and the majority of the citizens of Baltimore & elsewhere will accept the evidence.

I will hold to hope, no matter how naïve that goal may be.

By the same token, if there is objective evidence that condemns the officers, I will not cling to blind faith, regardless of how painful the truth is.

 

[mysteriew]

Also remember that the lowest vertebral level, C-7, is responsible for little finger sensation and movement. An injury higher than C-7, and there is no "thrashing around".

So, if the vertebrae were fractured at the level of the larynx (C-3,4,5,6) in the original LE apprehension, and the cord acutely damaged at that level, he would have been quadriplegic and apneic. Remember the old adage, "C-3-4-5 keeps the diaphragm alive."

Am I correct in that FG coulld have had a fractured spine, walked around talked and so forth until some type of movement or activity moved that fracture out of position and into contact with the spinal cord, or broke off a fragment which made contact with the cord and caused damage to the cord?

 

[Wise Old Owl]

And now we have New York City erupting. 60 arrested tonight.

 

[mysteriew]

Naw, heroin is an opioid. Opioids don't demineralize like that, but the lifestuyle effects could cause osteoporosis over decades, probably. Don't think heroin use in the short term (he was only 25) would have any effect on bone density. Lots of other adverse effects in the body, but bone density would be a VERY long term effect of the lifestyle effects of heroin abuse.

But I have read he had multiple arrests for drug use and selling. I won't be surprised if he is tox positive. That alone could be very socially inflammatory, since it will portray him as a criminal. It would detract from the story that he was minding his own business and only made "eye contact" with police when they rushed in to arrest him. We'll see.

Heroin is a needle drug and dirty needles is one cause for the spread of aids/hiv. Would aids/hiv have any affect on the bones?

Not saying that FG had aids/hiv, this is just info gathering.