Measles: To Disneyland and Beyond

[Morag]

I don't believe anyone is under an edict to take their 1-year-old to Disneyland.

I didn't say anything about Disney. But babies do have to go out sometimes, and sometimes they have to use mass transit.

 

[gitana1]

Just so we're all clear here, disposable paper face masks are not sealed "respirator" masks. There are a variety of masks available, and there is a lot of research out there discussing effectiveness of various types of masks, against various vectors of infection. Some are not very effective at all at preventing droplet transmission.

In many Asian countries it is considered polite to wear a cloth or disposable mask all day if you have a cold or cough, so you see a lot of people wearing them out and about in society.

Here in the U.S., people with vulnerable immune systems don a mask when they have to go out into crowds. Some clinics and hospitals urge people with a respiratory illness or cough to wear a mask in the waiting room.

Masks are not a "panacea" against spreading disease by the infected, or exposure for the immunologically vulnerable. They are probably better than nothing at all, but by no means are most simple "ear loop" paper masks a complete barrier to transmission or infection. I don't want to get into a big discussion about particle size, filtration, droplets, mask varieties, etc. But just know that most disposable masks are probably more of a physical barrier than a true respiratory barrier, and that they are a good visual reminder to take precautions, avoid crowds and obviously sick people, and wash hands more often. They don't guarantee the wearer will not transmit disease, or prevent exposure to someone with a weak immune system.

Thanks for that info.

And let's not overlook unvaccinated American tourists putting themselves and others at risk when they travel and bring home preventable illnesses such as the measles -- it's not just foreigners traveling to the US that are responsible.

Yes. I would add that for sure at airports especially.

gitana1 wrote:
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(Snipped for focus.)

Generally, I agree with this. When I was in the military overseas, Armed Forces TV didn't have regular commercials, but always had PSAs about health, or national parks, etc. My favorite was "Your Eyebrows- Wear them with Pride!"

I think a widespread PSA campaign educating people about vaccines and diseases would be a good thing. It depends on the level of information, and the target audience (PBS vs MTV vs ESPN, etc). However, I also think that the positions of those that are vehemently opposed to vaccines would not change with this educational strategy, and they may even become more strident and vocal in their "anti-propaganda" efforts. This group is ever more convinced that they alone have the "truth", and science and medicine is "the enemy". I'd like to think persistent education and re-education would penetrate that thinking, but my feelings are that they'd just become more marginalized and more entrenched than they already are.

So, I really don't know what the right answer is. Something has to be done. We can't just sit back and allow eradicated diseases to flourish again, and shrug our shoulders-- that kind of failure is just not an option.

I do think that the anti-vaccination issues are now more and more likely to be fought in the legislatures and courts, than in general public education and discussion. I don't generally think that's a good way to change harmful health behavior choices, but if nothing else works, than that's what we have left. Hopefully the strident discussions associated with trying to pass legislation will persuade some folks to re-examine their stance on vaccines. Because the legislative process will be slooooowwww and cumbersome (as it should be).

I think it's interesting that some clinics are trying to ban non-vaccinators from their practices (and I wonder if there will be a court challenge coming there), but that won't do much. The unvaccinated who are exposed and contagious will still move about freely in society, and show up to hospitals as visitors and patients.

I think PSA'S could change the minds of fence sitters and populations who could becone anti-vaccinators in the future.

Doctors and clinics are already banning/refusing to treat unvaccinated kids everywhere. They have every right to do so and such an exclusion would withstand a court challenge IMO because they could actually get sued for allowing unvaccinated kids in their clinic during an outbreak.

 

[Hiandmighty]

An unvaccinated child with measles turning up in a peds waiting room would be a NIGHTMARE and a severe public health crisis.

 

[MsFacetious]

Spacing out your shots sounds like a smart practice in your situation. Surely we are not lumping your scenario into the "anti-vaxxer" group? Is what you describe similar to P.A.N.D.A kids?

We do have our share of "rare" conditions but fortunately PANDAS isn't among them.
I know a couple of kids with PANDAS though so I am familiar with it.

http://pandasnetwork.org/understandingpandaspans/about-pandaspans/whatispans/

My kids just got strep when most kids didn't.
Generally it starts happening after age 2... but my girls had it before.

I wanted to wait on the 12 months vaccines because I was concerned she was immunocompromised.
I wanted to wait until we did blood work to check on that, before injecting her with a live vaccine.
However I was guilted into it by being told basically she could die if she got the chicken pox.

Turns out she has a white blood cell count of 3, all the time. (We do blood work every 6 months.)
No real medical explanation for it but her other blood work also showed she was immunocompromised.
Of course that blood work was not done until AFTER she got the chicken pox from the vaccine and spent a week in the hospital. :thinking:

The Pediatrician had never seen a full blown case from the vaccine... and he was MY Pediatrician too.
He walked us over to the hospital personally to admit her, he knew he should have listened to me... and has done so ever since. :twocents:

She actually broke out in the chicken pox rash at a good family friends funeral.
Her 2 month old sister got RSV shortly after the chicken pox hospital stay and spent a week in the hospital.
It was quite the eventful February. :sigh:

 

[CoolJ]

You've made some though provoking, very logical points. We need more of this kind of explanation publicized, without accompanying rhetoric that I hear from some angry doctors. Just quiet, rational explanations. I think that would really help. You've educated me.

Every study promoting no correlation between autism & vaccines can be picked part like that as well. And they have been. You just have to look outside of the medical literature to find it. Don't forget the numerous whistleblowers who have put their livelyhood on the line to tell the world that many of these studies have been manipulated by Big Pharma including longtime editors of well respected medical journals. And let's not forget the lawsuits and criminal charges that have proven Big Pharm manipulating data.

For the record I am not really against vaccines. I have no Idea of the connection between vaccines and autism or any other health condition. I just do not trust Pharmaceutical companies. So how can I trust their vaccines?

 

[MyBelle]

I didn't say anything about Disney. But babies do have to go out sometimes, and sometimes they have to use mass transit.

Of course they do but this thread is about Disneyland. Sick babies don't belong at Disneyland.

JMO

 

[SophieRose]

California bill would require more vaccinations
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article9275870.html

With measles breaking out in California, two state senators introduced legislation Wednesday that would eliminate the ability for parents of school children to opt out of vaccinating their kids based on a personal belief.

The bill by Democratic Sens. Richard Pan of Sacramento and Ben Allen of Santa Monica is likely to spark intense debate in the state Legislature. Across the state, parents in wealthy communities – both liberal and conservative – have chosen not to vaccinate their children and been able to enroll them in school by filing a so-called “personal belief” exemption.

 

[LinasK]

California bill would require more vaccinations
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article9275870.html

With measles breaking out in California, two state senators introduced legislation Wednesday that would eliminate the ability for parents of school children to opt out of vaccinating their kids based on a personal belief.

The bill by Democratic Sens. Richard Pan of Sacramento and Ben Allen of Santa Monica is likely to spark intense debate in the state Legislature. Across the state, parents in wealthy communities – both liberal and conservative – have chosen not to vaccinate their children and been able to enroll them in school by filing a so-called “personal belief” exemption.

As a Californian, I'm very glad to hear my state is being proactive about it. And my daughter didn't go to Disneyland for the first time until she was 3 (and fully vaccinated). Anything younger is just too young to appreciate it.

 

[Migmuu]

I have Asperger's syndrome. Nice to know that there are morons out there who think that risking their child becoming disfigured/dead is preferable risking their child being mildly awkward (but still functional). Thanks. That totally doesn't make me feel like a leper.

Seriously though, if I were a lawmaker I'd be seriously considering a law that would take away the ability to get an exemption from vaccines due to "personal beliefs". Or a law that, if a parent wants to exempt their kids from vaccination, they are required to watch a video showing children with the vaccine-preventable diseases (polio, meningitis, whooping cough, etc.), then have to wait at least 24 hours before being able to sign the exemption form. If you don't want to vaccinate your kids, you should at least know the potential consequences for both your child and the people around you.

ETA: Apparently California is considering the "banning 'personal belief' exemption" law. Go California!

 

[nrdsb4]

Of course they do but this thread is about Disneyland. Sick babies don't belong at Disneyland.

JMO

We weren't just talking about sick babies. Healthy babies don't get the measles vaccine until their one year checkup on average. They are vulnerable to measles whether it's Disneyland or the grocery store, and as herd immunity disappears as a result of an anti vaccination movement, their risk increases. If anyone should have to stay away from public places, it's the people who willfully refuse to vaccinate and put other people at risk. not the millions of babies in this country.

 

[K_Z]

Oregon legislator wants to eliminate 'philosophical' vaccine exemption

The Oregon Legislature is considering changing parents' ability to exempt their children from mandatory vaccinations. It's a move that will likely draw a blistering response from vaccine opponents.

But state Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, D-Portland, who's also a physician, is willing to take whatever flak comes her way.

"We have schools in this state where only 25 percent of kids are fully immunized," emphasizes Steiner Hayward. "That scares the living daylights out of me, both as a physician and a mother."

Her solution is to limit parents' ability to exempt their kids from vaccinations.

It's happening across the country:
•2 states, West Virginia and Mississippi, allow only medical exemptions.
•29 states allow medical and religious exemptions.
•19 states, including Oregon and Washington, allow medical, religious or philosophical exemptions.

2 hours ago.

http://www.katu.com/news/problemsol...hilosophical-vaccine-exemption-290857801.html

 

[K_Z]

Mississippi could change process to get vaccination exemption

Bill moves to full House for debate

The Mississippi Health Department could lose its role in deciding whether a child can skip a mandatory vaccination.

Does your state allow vaccination exemptions?

House Bill 130 passed the House Education Committee on Tuesday and moves to the full House for more debate. It says a physician would not have to seek Health Department approval to grant a vaccine exemption for medical reasons.

The bill originally would have let a parent or guardian cite personal beliefs to seek an exemption for a child's mandated vaccinations. The updated bill removes personal beliefs and limits exemptions to medical reasons.

The state health officer, Dr. Mary Currier, said the Health Department granted all 135 medical exemptions that people requested for the 2014-15 school year.

Published today.

http://www.wapt.com/health/mississippi-could-change-process-to-get-vaccination-exemption/31087072

 

[MyBelle]

We weren't just talking about sick babies. Healthy babies don't get the measles vaccine until their one year checkup on average. They are vulnerable to measles whether it's Disneyland or the grocery store, and as herd immunity disappears as a result of an anti vaccination movement, their risk increases. If anyone should have to stay away from public places, it's the people who willfully refuse to vaccinate and put other people at risk. not the millions of babies in this country.

If you're saying it is okay to take a healthy baby to recreational places crowded with children, I don't agree with you. They are vulnerable to a number of viruses, not just measles. That's what babysitters are for.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I have Asperger's syndrome. Nice to know that there are morons out there who think that risking their child becoming disfigured/dead is preferable risking their child being mildly awkward (but still functional). Thanks. That totally doesn't make me feel like a leper.

Seriously though, if I were a lawmaker I'd be seriously considering a law that would take away the ability to get an exemption from vaccines due to "personal beliefs". Or a law that, if a parent wants to exempt their kids from vaccination, they are required to watch a video showing children with the vaccine-preventable diseases (polio, meningitis, whooping cough, etc.), then have to wait at least 24 hours before being able to sign the exemption form. If you don't want to vaccinate your kids, you should at least know the potential consequences for both your child and the people around you.

ETA: Apparently California is considering the "banning 'personal belief' exemption" law. Go California!

They all should ban the personal exemption nonsense.

JMO

 

[Steft50]

Of course they do but this thread is about Disneyland. Sick babies don't belong at Disneyland.

JMO

Regardless of where the measles is transmitted the disease is contagious 4 days before signs of illness and rash. Too bad people can't tell the future...yanno, so they don't get others sick, since that doesn't happen, they won't know when they are going to be sick.
http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/transmission.html

 

[MyBelle]

An unvaccinated child with measles turning up in a peds waiting room would be a NIGHTMARE and a severe public health crisis.

I can only imagine what would happen at a day care center or pre-school.

 

[K_Z]

Dozens of schools have high vaccine exemption rates

SEATTLE (AP) -- The Seattle Times has found at least 86 schools in King and Snohomish counties have a vaccine exemption rate of 10 percent or higher.

The newspaper has posted a searchable database of vaccination exemption rates for all the schools in Washington state

Published today.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...AOL-?SITE=ALANN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

The Politics of Immunization: Measles and Media

—The current measles outbreak may be the opening sprint in the 2016 presidential race.

The recent measles outbreak in California has made vaccination -- which used to be just a public health issue and a topic for Internet chat room debate -- into a political football.

Pediatric neurosurgeon and potential Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson, MD, used even stronger language in a statement to the website BuzzFeed suggesting that there be no vaccine exemptions for any reason: "Certain communicable diseases have been largely eradicated by immunization policies in this country, and we should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing [sic] safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious, or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them."

Politicians who discourage vaccination may be doing some harm, according to Dan Derksen, MD, professor of public health policy and management at the University of Arizona in Tucson. "Responsible physicians and nurses turn to credible sources for vaccination recommendations based on scientific evidence," he said in an email.

"Ambitious politicians, and a few health providers, are not immune to spreading inaccurate information that does real harm. The remedy for partisan rhetoric, denialism, and indulgent ignorance is reasoned research and analysis, seasoned by our collective wisdom, and conveyed to the public in a clear manner. Decisions not to vaccinate inflict collateral damage on others."

http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/Vaccines/49876

IMO, the general public is finally mad enough, and scared enough, to force a national public dialogue about the effects of the choices of the "voluntarily unvaccinated" on the rest of the general public. And this Disneyland outbreak has become the tipping point.

I'm personally glad the conversation has been elevated to a national discussion. It's about time. Science, medicine, and objectivity have been pushed aside in favor of "indulgent ignorance" and ignorant rhetoric for far too long on this issue, IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

Regardless of where the measles is transmitted the disease is contagious 4 days before signs of illness and rash. Too bad parents can't tell the future, yanno, like when their kids of any age are going to come down with the measles.

The measles in this thread was transmitted at Disneyland. If parents want to take the risk of having their children exposed to a virus at an amusement park, that's up to the parents. Kinda dumb to do so but hey, it's their kid.

 

[Migmuu]

They all should ban the personal exemption nonsense.

JMO

Seriously. With how often the religious/personal objection clause is used, you'd think the God of the Old Testament had sent an eighth plague of explosive diarrhea down on the Egyptians for vaccinating their children.

 

[K_Z]

They all should ban the personal exemption nonsense.

JMO

I'm actually fine with banning the religious exemption, too, and leaving only validated medical exemptions. But I'm kind of hardcore where immunizations are concerned.

The politicians are testing now to see which way the wind will blow before most of them "make up their minds" whether or not to support some kind of personal & religious exemptions. The personal "philosophical" exemptions are being attacked first.

And as I posted earlier in this thread, I'd prefer to penalize non-vaccinators with non-eligibility for driver licenses, and non-eligibility for passports, as well as non-eligibility to purchase domestic or international plane tickets, and non-eligibility for welfare benefits. That's where I'd start. I'd probably throw in a health tax penalty too-- a "fee", for non-vaccination, per person in the family. (Obviously I have no future in politics!)