Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10

[otto]

Right! this is what they appear to have done to Amanda, and why she later said it was "unreal" to her.

Right ... and then her father said to her "imagine that Rudy didn't break in through the window, how did he then enter the cottage" ... and this is the only reason that Amanda says anything ... because someone asks her a question and she'll make up anything rather than speak the truth.

 

[otto]

I haven't really followed RG's case, so I have no opinion on his various tales.

But coerced testimony is not uncommon, despite what you and otto would like to believe.

In his statement RS places himself with AK in the town square until 9 pm, but we KNOW they were at his apartment when the friend stopped by and spoke with AK, when RS' father called, when they started (at least) the movie, etc.

RS' lies not only don't correspond with the known facts, they don't even help him personally. They are merely attempts to say whatever will get him out of the room.

I am still waiting for an example where an educated woman lies to the police after 2 hours because they made her do it. It is because there is no example. This simply does not add up.

 

[SMK]

Why would you write that? That's disgusting.

It is quite possible that Meredith accidentally hit a programmed number on her phone, and later deleted the automatic message she received from the bank. That happened at 10:15. That means the attack could have started after 10:15.

Why would I write that? Because I find it equally disgusting that you would see her as using the cell when she is in that condition.

 

[Nova]

Eehh .. I am not sure how to answer that Some questions I can understand but others go a little far. I don't believe there is one single piece of evidence or even a witness that is accepted by the innocence side. Everyone is being coerced, or part of the evil Mignini conspiracy. It just goes way too far. The starting point is 'they must be innocent and therefore all the evidence must be false'. It is much easier to follow the evidence, accept the verdicts and then you can still be critical of the investigation. JMO.

It's not that "they must be innocent" to most of us, it's that most of the existing evidence has other, simpler explanations. Moreover, many read the claims of "overwhelming evidence of guilt" and were then shocked to find how little there is, particularly because in so many areas, ILE simply didn't do their jobs.

The fact remains that the idea that three people (one of them female) who barely knew one another and didn't even share fluency in one language came together in a matter of minutes to rape and murder a friend of the female is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

And as the recent "Freudian slip" argument proves, there are plenty who start with the assumption that AK must be guilty and all the evidence should be bent toward proving that.

 

[SMK]

I am still waiting for an example where an educated woman lies to the police after 2 hours because they made her do it. It is because there is no example. This simply does not add up.

Educated woman has nothing to do with it. In 1974, Peter Reilly was an intelligent 18 year old who quickly gave a false confession when police told him the polygraph "said for a fact he did it". He was in prison 3 years before he was proven to have had an air tight alibi. And don't ever tell me what I write is "disgusting", and attribute evil motives to a person who has none. You can do that with Amanda, but not me. To envision a poor girl with her throat cut calling the bank is insane.

 

[Nova]

Right, to tell you the truth, I never liked that part because to me, it sounds forced and disingenuous. However, Amanda's quirky speech patterns do not make her guilty to my thinking unless the evidence clearly states it so. I know what you mean, that she was honoring Meredith, but I don't like the way it "scans". Does not mean she is involved, tho.

It's an unusual turn of phrase, perhaps, but I don't see what is ominous in that description of MK. Obviously, she is paying tribute to her dead friend.

 

[Nova]

Disagree. Before the use of DNA, when eye witness testimony alone put people in jail, there was a higher incidence of miscarriage of justice. Now, with DNA, and an awareness of tunnel vision, investigators are more careful to aim for the truth ... at least in many countries. Coercing the truth does not result in false memories. 2 hours of questioning does not result in false testimony, not even in people with an IQ of 80.

You don't know what you are talking about in terms of coerced testimony. You've been given many examples to the contrary in these threads, but you ignore them all.

One would like to think that DNA has improved accuracy in convictions, but we really have no way of measuring. Since it doesn't carry a time stamp, DNA can be used to falsely implicate as well as exonerate.

 

[Nova]

I see it as a dynamic between a couple ... something that happens from time to time.

Except this crime wasn't committed by a couple, supposedly, it was committed by a trio. Unless you actually believe RG was sitting on the toilet listening to his iPod while AK and RS committed the murder.

 

[Nova]

Amanda was questioned for 2 (two) hours, one without an interpreter, and then she signed her own statement accusing Patrick. Have you ever seen a crime show where a University student did that because he or she was too mentally discombobulated to understand the truth?

If I found such an example, you would immediately demand an example of "a girl from Seattle" who gave false testimony after 2 hours. And once I'd found that, you would demand that the girl be a blonde.

You see, I've figured out the game here.

 

[SMK]

Except this crime wasn't committed by a couple, supposedly, it was committed by a trio. Unless you actually believe RG was sitting on the toilet listening to his iPod while AK and RS committed the murder.

Right, and was so upset he left DNA inside her body. Guede is so obviously guilty, and Raffaele and Amanda show no indication of being Paul and Karla. Remember, Karla as has been said hooked up with a man who was already a repeat violent sexual offender.

 

[Nova]

Why would you write that? That's disgusting.

It is quite possible that Meredith accidentally hit a programmed number on her phone, and later deleted the automatic message she received from the bank. That happened at 10:15. That means the attack could have started after 10:15.

Why would a pre-programmed number be missing the country/area code? That doesn't make any sense to me, but I admit I'm not an expert on cell phones.

 

[OldSteve]

Amanda was questioned for 2 (two) hours, one without an interpreter, and then she signed her own statement accusing Patrick. Have you ever seen a crime show where a University student did that because he or she was too mentally discombobulated to understand the truth?

Wasn't she questioned after sitting around inside the LE office for some time, at the end of day, and was fidgety to the point of doing the infamous cartwheel? To do such a thing in the sanctity of the offices of LE, she must be most demonic! Well, that's way some see it. I don't and as one who is fidgety I can relate to the climbing-the-walls way AK felt!

 

[claudicici]

I actually think RG's version is a lot more believable than the official theory.
It would explain why he didn't flush the toilet and if it was really RS he saw in the hallway ,RS would have told AK a black man witnessed him inside of the house so it would make sense for AK to implicate PL maybe she thought it was him that was there?

 

[Nova]

I actually think RG's version is a lot more believable than the official theory.
It would explain why he didn't flush the toilet and if it was really RS he saw in the hallway ,RS would have told AK a black man witnessed him inside of the house so it would make sense for AK to implicate PL maybe she thought it was him that was there?

Almost anything is more believable than the official theory (i.e., theories). But RG's story requires consensual sex with MK and I just don't believe she took advantage of her new boyfriend's absence to have sex with the stinky local drug dealer, do you? Nothing we know of MK suggests she would do that.

 

[SMK]

Wasn't she questioned after sitting around inside the LE office for some time, at the end of day, and was fidgety to the point doing the infamous cartwheel? To do such a thing in the sanctity of the offices of LE, she must be most demonic!

When my sister was in college, she worked at a riding stable and would get so bored waiting for people to come and rent horses, she would do cartwheels in the corridor of the barn. True, she was not waiting to speak about a dead friend, but she had plenty of trauma in her life at that point. Her nerves were driving her nuts. My niece also does cartwheels when she is restless.

 

[Nova]

When my sister was in college, she worked at a riding stable and would get so bored waiting for people to come and rent horses, she would do cartwheels in the corridor of the barn. True, she was not waiting to speak about a dead friend, but she had plenty of trauma in her life at that point. Her nerves were driving her nuts. My niece also does cartwheels when she is restless.

I'm convinced the "cartwheel story" has had such traction because in English (and for all I know in Italian as well) "doing cartwheels" is idiomatic for expressing joy. The pro-guilt camp likes to talk about AK doing cartwheels because it makes her seem not just heartless, but actually giddy over MK's death.

 

[SMK]

I'm convinced the "cartwheel story" has had such traction because in English (and for all I know in Italian as well) "doing cartwheels" is idiomatic for expressing joy. The pro-guilt camp likes to talk about AK doing cartwheels because it makes her seem not just heartless, but actually giddy over MK's death.

Good point. In the U.S., at least, most girls learned to do cartwheels for gym, and it is something to do to "kill time", not express joy. As I said, my niece once did them in the hallways of a college when I was registering for a summer class, and she was waiting for me. She was 12. I told her to stop because I was afraid she was going to bump into a table or person. I am sure Amanda was bored and nervous and restless and just doing the girl thing.

 

[flourish]

I have actually never read of a case of bizarre and extreme sexual violence where there was NOT some serious abuse and neglect in childhood. Humans are wired to be normal unless something goes astray. I do not believe in genetic evil.

I responded with:

Karla Homolka and Colton Pitonyak immediately come to mind

I have read extensively on the homolka case. Although there could be a possibility I simply am not seeing the dynamics in AK's case

We discussed the possible hybrophilia connection about five or six threads back. That's not what I was I talking about here. Here, I was talking about Homolka and Pitonyak, not Bernardo or Hall (Homolka and Pitonyak's cohorts, respectively), nor the dynamics between the couples, nor the dynamics between AK and RS.

I was offering Homolka and Pitonyak as examples of people without any known abuse in their childhood who still do incredibly horrid acts.

Except one of them was ALREADY a serial rapist Hmmmm. curious. Don't see that element of prior bad conduct. Don't see any crazed sexual patterns in their past; no kinky photos??? I think it's ridiculous to even compare these two couples. But that's just otto, er I mean me (fraudian slip?)

Please see above.

Additionally, there is debate about whether or not Bernardo was indeed raping prior to his relationship with Homolka.

I didn't mention Bernardo as a person who committed horrid acts but wasn't abused as a child as there's evidence he possibly was. I don't know enough about Pitonyak's cohort, Laura Ashley Hall, to know whether or not she was abused as a child.

Not that I even buy into the idea that most abusers were abused. A lot of abusers report they were abused as children, but that's their words, not necessarily the facts.

With all that said, though, I am going to again state that I do not discount the idea of a possible hybristophiliac connection between AK and RS. That's my opinion, I'm free to have it and state it. You are free to disagree and state so, but it'd be nice for disagreement to be stated in a respectful manner.

 

[SMK]

I responded with:





We discussed the possible hybrophilia connection about five or six threads back. That's not what I was I talking about here. Here, I was talking about Homolka and Pitonyak, not Bernardo or Hall (Homolka and Pitonyak's cohorts, respectively), nor the dynamics between the couples, nor the dynamics between AK and RS.

I was offering Homolka and Pitonyak as examples of people without any known abuse in their childhood who still do incredibly horrid acts.



Please see above.

Additionally, there is debate about whether or not Bernardo was indeed raping prior to his relationship with Homolka.

I didn't mention Bernardo as a person who committed horrid acts but wasn't abused as a child as there's evidence he possibly was. I don't know enough about Pitonyak's cohort, Laura Ashley Hall, to know whether or not she was abused as a child.

Not that I even buy into the idea that most abusers were abused. A lot of abusers report they were abused as children, but that's their words, not necessarily the facts.

With all that said, though, I am going to again state that I do not discount the idea of a possible hybristophiliac connection between AK and RS. That's my opinion, I'm free to have it and state it. You are free to disagree and state so, but it'd be nice for disagreement to be stated in a respectful manner.

I understand your theory of a POSSIBLE hybristophiliac connection between the 2. It would have to have been intuited very suddenly, though, as they had only known eachother 6 days and had a language barrier between them. I do understand that such things can happen, and my own ideas about "abuse or neglect in childhood" are probably outside the norm: What I think I mean is feeling alienated in childhood, feeling parents are against one (even if to the outsider it looks like all is well). This may be due to the abnormality of the child, and not the parent, but I would assume Paul Bernardo and Karl experienced this. Perhaps Raffaele and Amanda did as well. It is not outside the realm of possibility, I just wish it were backed up by some really solid evidence. I don't see any that rules out reasonable doubt.

 

[Nova]

I think ziggy was just making a joke, flourish. I doubt she meant any disrespect as that isn't her style. (I know because usually she and I are on opposite sides of issues.)