Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[jjenny]

Wow now I'm an 80 year old grandmother? I ask this because i just said my memory was bad in the same quote. I am not anywhere CLOSE to 80. I think it's unreasonable to say that just because she's a pothead, she deserves a murder sentence if being a pothead causes her to not remember.

I never suggested you were a 80 year old grandmother. It's a well known fact memory generally gets worse with age. AK, as a young woman, should presumably have a good enough memory to remember what she did a few days ago. Regarding pot, unless she was a very heavy user, it shouldn't have had a really detrimental effect on her memory.

 

[flourish]

Well, not to mention there were clocks on at least their cell phones and the laptop and, IMO, as students, are in the habit of checking clocks regularly.

I happen to live somewhere where medicinal marijuana is legal, and my town happens to be particularly known for its "herb friendly" status. I wrote out this whole other thing to say, but it was long and rambling and personal, so I'm just gonna say that if you want to learn more about how certain drugs and drug combinations affect people, as in lots and lots of anecdotal information, this is a good site:

http://www.erowid.org/
"Erowid: Documenting the Complex Relationship Between Humans and Psychoactives."


FWIW, my personal OPINION re: the drug use, is that if this loss of memory is accurate, true, and real, then it is completely absurd, IMO, that it could be caused by smoking only marijuana or hash. Add in a decent amount of alcohol and it's more believable, IMO. Add in a some sort of benzo instead and it's getting closer. Add in some sort of benzo AND alcohol, then that could convince me enough that this hazy memory issue, which may or may not have caused/influenced a conjuring of a murderous black man, could have happened. However, IMO, someone in that state wouldn't remember murdering someone, either, but someone who ingested several types of depressants, of course, would most likely pretty quickly be seriously passed out for many hours, IMO.

So, uh, take that as you will...I'm just thinking and typing here.... :crazy::crazy:

 

[jjenny]

I completely agree. I find it hard to believe pot alone would cause all these memory problems, unless they were using something else they are not admitting to.

 

[Malkmus]

She is a 20 year old young woman, not some 80 year old grandmother.
Her memory should presumably be good enough to remember what she did a few days ago. Of course who knows what pot use might have done to her memory, but who exactly is to blame for that?

She did remember what she did.Just not the exact times. Her story of watching a movie, dinner, and having sex with Raf remained the same for four straight days of questioning until on November 5th ILE convinced her that her memory was wrong and that she had been at the cottage that night. The next day she went back to claiming the same sequence of events she'd stated all along.

But on the subject of youth and memory... I'm 32 now, and when I was a 15 year old freshman in high school I was at a boarding school and had an incident occur where I was accused of stealing soda cans from another student's room. There had been some sort of social where the sodas were free to take and in abundance, and in that setting sodas were like cigarettes in a prison to us. This one guy went and grabbed some 30 cans for himself and stashed them in the bottom drawer of his dresser and had shown off the stash to a few of us. What I remember is that at some point the next day I went in his room which was open and showed another student the stash, just as a gesture of like "check this out!" and that was it I thought. But apparently someone soon after stole all of them from his room and I became the prime suspect. I had to stand up for myself, swearing on everything that I hadn't taken the darn soda cans from his room. To my shock, the other guy I'd shown the stash to told him right in front of me that he'd seen me take them! I was in disbelief. I knew I had stolen nothing but there was now apparently this eyewitness who'd seen me take the cans. I spent days trying to convince this guy, who now hated my guts, that I would never steal from anyone. But it looked bad that I'd taken the liberty of going into his room uninvited when he wasn't there. I couldn't really explain my bad decision. But I tell you, as time went by I started replaying the situation in my mind and actually started to wonder if I had taken the cans but forgot about it. To this day my memory is so fuzzy of it that I don't remember for certain what I did. Maybe I took one can and that's what the guy saw. Maybe I took a few. I really don't think I took anything, but it's bothered me to this day, and I hate that I can't 100 % trust my memory of what I actually did. I will say, when you have multiple people telling you know you did something when you swear you don't remember doing it, it really wears on you and causes you to second guess yourself.

 

[wasnt_me]

I never suggested you were a 80 year old grandmother. It's a well known fact memory generally gets worse with age. AK, as a young woman, should presumably have a good enough memory to remember what she did a few days ago. Regarding pot, unless she was a very heavy user, it shouldn't have had a really detrimental effect on her memory.

Since I discuss her memory loss in the same quote in which I'm discussing my own memory loss, and you reply that she'd 20, not 80, that seems to suggest that you're saying anyone with memory loss must then be 80. It's not a relevant point, so I'm not worried about it.

 

[wasnt_me]

Malkmus,

That was a GREAT memory--or lack of memory--story to share with us.

Sometimes in my house, something will seem out of place, and I'll swear to myself that I did not move it. It'll rack my brain a while trying to figure out how the thing got to the new spot, because I just didn't remember even having a need to touch the thing at all. Sometimes, later, I'll go "OH!!" and remember it, but sometimes I never do.

A lot of times, I'd had the problem you're talking about in dealing with relationships with guys. Kind of like that joke Eddie Murphy used to tell where the woman sees her lover coming out of another woman's house and he keeps going "Wasn't me." and she's like "I swear I saw you. You had on such and such clothes." and he's like "Wasn't me." He says it enough times until where the woman says, "Well, maybe it wasn't you."


It could be anything from "I didn't drink the last of the milk, you did" to "we never said we had plans that night, so I went out with my friends." and I KNOW in my knower the opposite of those statements are true, but the BF persists until I feel I don't know what's true.

That's what I meant when i said before that repetition, even of lies, is what gets remembered.

Of course, that little wasn't me story is where my screen name comes from.

But anyways, you ever have friends or Significant others who tell you their versions of disagreements and swear they are right, even though you KNOW they aren't? After a while, if they keep insisting, the same thing that happened to you will happen again. You'll question yourself and your own interpretation of events. It takes a strong, confident, and assured person to keep persisting they are right even when people say they are wrong.

AK went through this same thing according to her testimony and writing.

As you get older, it's easier to tell people they are full of crap. But in AK's case, I guess it was hard to tell ILE that.

 

[Malkmus]

Malkmus,

That was a GREAT memory--or lack of memory--story to share with us.

Sometimes in my house, something will seem out of place, and I'll swear to myself that I did not move it. It'll rack my brain a while trying to figure out how the thing got to the new spot, because I just didn't remember even having a need to touch the thing at all. Sometimes, later, I'll go "OH!!" and remember it, but sometimes I never do.

A lot of times, I'd had the problem you're talking about in dealing with relationships with guys. Kind of like that joke Eddie Murphy used to tell where the woman sees her lover coming out of another woman's house and he keeps going "Wasn't me." and she's like "I swear I saw you. You had on such and such clothes." and he's like "Wasn't me." He says it enough times until where the woman says, "Well, maybe it wasn't you."


It could be anything from "I didn't drink the last of the milk, you did" to "we never said we had plans that night, so I went out with my friends." and I KNOW in my knower the opposite of those statements are true, but the BF persists until I feel I don't know what's true.

That's what I meant when i said before that repetition, even of lies, is what gets remembered.

Of course, that little wasn't me story is where my screen name comes from.

But anyways, you ever have friends or Significant others who tell you their versions of disagreements and swear they are right, even though you KNOW they aren't? After a while, if they keep insisting, the same thing that happened to you will happen again. You'll question yourself and your own interpretation of events. It takes a strong, confident, and assured person to keep persisting they are right even when people say they are wrong.

AK went through this same thing according to her testimony and writing.

As you get older, it's easier to tell people they are full of crap. But in AK's case, I guess it was hard to tell ILE that.

In relationships that can be the most frustrating, especially if you really trust the other person. That's really what it all boils down to: trust.
I can imagine that some people go through life without having to be a victim of any of these banal sorts of problems, but those of us who do can certainly understand how someone like Amanda would end up in the situation she did and be outraged that such issues would be held against her as such definitive proof of guilt.

 

[jjenny]

Has it ever occurred to you that the guy you showed the stash to, might have taken the cans and blamed you to divert suspicion from himself?
LOL.

 

[Allusonz]

Me, too, except, thanks to this case, I know know that all my websluething can probably be traced on my computer, if they don't destroy the computer. So They can probably go back to wednesday and see I was too busy discussing this murder to participate in one myself, hypothetically speaking of course.

Yikes if they went off of my computer they would be locking me up and throwing the keys away :floorlaugh:

 

[Allusonz]

These are likely scenerios, but we must remember that RS claimed that he didn't have enough material to absorb it all. so then it IS reasonable that it is left. I had a flood to my ankles in my basement and it stayed there for days as I tried so suck it all up with a carpet cleaner. took FOREVER.

That's why I said in another post, but no one responded, if you want to know if the leak really happened, ask the Landlord. Wouldn't he know about this leak and water damage from water standing for that long? I don't know how much water it was, so there's a chance he might not have been told.

IIRC the landlord did confirm it

 

[Allusonz]

Exactly. I think a lot of this boils down to people either having excellent or rather poor memory (myself). I relate a lot to the supposed "guilty behavior" in this case because I have such trouble remembering when exactly things happened too. I'm not afraid to admit that if you asked me what I did last Wednesday night I haven' the slightest clue. Maybe I went to the gym after work, maybe I watched some TV instead or read a book. The only thing I know for sure is that since I went out Thursday with friends so that Wednesday I didn't. Beats me what I did! It's scary but my bad memory would probably land me in a Perugian jail cell to rot.
Just a guess, but I assume people like Fred must just have excellent memory - something they can't be faulted for. But they need to understand that we're not all wired that way.

It does not even have to be poor memory. Some people remember certain things better than other things. I will hear a phone number once and it is very rare I will forget it. Give me an address and I am toast. As well I take many scenic detours my story sticking to it

 

[Malkmus]

Has it ever occurred to you that the guy you showed the stash to, might have taken the cans and blamed you to divert suspicion from himself?
LOL.

Yes haha :crazy:

There's actually more to that story involving the administration, threats and so forth... but i was trying to keep it short. It was probably that guy or someone he told, or maybe he really did think he saw me take some... I'll never know. I'm probably the only one who remembers that incident ever happening.

 

[Allusonz]

I tend to think a conspiracy gets more unlikely the greater the number of people who are required to keep the secret. (This is just one reason 9/11 conspiracies make no sense to me.)

It is possible the prosecution objected to the testing just out of a principle from Lawyering 101: never ask a question if you don't know the answer. If Mignini thought he didn't need RG's or RS' semen on the pillowcase, why take a chance he'll be surprised by adding some new party to the scene?

True and I agree!!! I very rarely consider things to be a conspiracy :innocent:

This might be once instance where a select group of people could very well of done that. This would be the one group of people with the greatest influence/control over evidence thus truly not involving alot of people

 

[Allusonz]

Thanks, but the quotes I put in "seem" to be taken from court documents. I'll have to double check and get back to you, unless someone else explains in the meantime about this "firing" mystery.

There was no firing. PL texted AK stating that he would not need her to come to work that night. She replied "See you later. Good night". In Italian see you later means there is a definate meeting.

There was an interview with PL after his release in which they stated he said amoung other things that she was fired and this turned out not to be true.

AK did meet with PL early one morning I believe it was the 5th to tell PL that she was concerned about working evenings as she was afraid. They were both detained the next morning being the 6th

 

[claudicici]

Well, not to mention there were clocks on at least their cell phones and the laptop and, IMO, as students, are in the habit of checking clocks regularly.

I happen to live somewhere where medicinal marijuana is legal, and my town happens to be particularly known for its "herb friendly" status. I wrote out this whole other thing to say, but it was long and rambling and personal, so I'm just gonna say that if you want to learn more about how certain drugs and drug combinations affect people, as in lots and lots of anecdotal information, this is a good site:

http://www.erowid.org/
"Erowid: Documenting the Complex Relationship Between Humans and Psychoactives."


FWIW, my personal OPINION re: the drug use, is that if this loss of memory is accurate, true, and real, then it is completely absurd, IMO, that it could be caused by smoking only marijuana or hash. Add in a decent amount of alcohol and it's more believable, IMO. Add in a some sort of benzo instead and it's getting closer. Add in some sort of benzo AND alcohol, then that could convince me enough that this hazy memory issue, which may or may not have caused/influenced a conjuring of a murderous black man, could have happened. However, IMO, someone in that state wouldn't remember murdering someone, either, but someone who ingested several types of depressants, of course, would most likely pretty quickly be seriously passed out for many hours, IMO.

So, uh, take that as you will...I'm just thinking and typing here.... :crazy::crazy:

I agree benzo,alcohol,grass combo would definetely do it....however isn't it true the THC content in hash is 8 times more than in grass? And they smoked lots of it,out of a pipe ,it was not diludet with tabac or anything and I can imagine they drank some wine as well? After thinking about it ,I can imagine that would cause some memory loss.maybe also some hallucinations or if AK saw the dead body she may have perceived it as having to be a hallucination,if she also has some mild form of autism,like Asperger's(which I now suspect) I can see her covering the body and locking the door and not mentioning it until later.
I still believe RG staged the break in.

 

[claudicici]

I finally found AK's short story on her myspace blog
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39
It's almost at the end.
It's hardly a story that would make one think this girl has a hidden,secret,sadistic streak and would find pleasure in seeing someone getting hurt.
The rape is only mentioned to illustrate the bad character of the brother,the one that is supposed to take care and protect the main character of the story.
It's really about a story how you can not trust people to be there for you and they may be "not the way they're supposed to be"
What I found most interesting about it is this part :
Sandra waited, watching him pick at the thin scabs on his wrists that were nothing compared to the wounds under his arms. She wanted to ask who had hurt him, which kid, so she could actually do something to help. She at least had authority over her third graders. But she was silent, waiting like she did when she asked a student to read for her, waiting for them to figure it out. Children were impressionable, often out of laziness, and would take any answer given to them when they could. She didn't want to put any names into Edgar's mouth for him.

So in 2006 when she wrote the story,she was very aware that you could be coerced into naming someone who is not guilty because "children are impressionable"
She blames this on being young,impressionable and laziness.
She pretty much gives an explanation about what happened to her during the interrogation.Did the interrogation somehow trigger something that happened in AK's childhood?Did she name a wrong name before because she was "impressionable" and it was just way easier to go with what was suggested instead of making sense of something by yourself? Was she looking for the teacher,for someone to "take charge" of her thoughts,so she would not have to deal with it on her own?

 

[SMK]

I finally found AK's short story on her myspace blog
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39
It's almost at the end.
It's hardly a story that would make one think this girl has a hidden,secret,sadistic streak and would find pleasure in seeing someone getting hurt.
The rape is only mentioned to illustrate the bad character of the brother,the one that is supposed to take care and protect the main character of the story.
It's really about a story how you can not trust people to be there for you and they may be "not the way they're supposed to be"
What I found most interesting about it is this part :
Sandra waited, watching him pick at the thin scabs on his wrists that were nothing compared to the wounds under his arms. She wanted to ask who had hurt him, which kid, so she could actually do something to help. She at least had authority over her third graders. But she was silent, waiting like she did when she asked a student to read for her, waiting for them to figure it out. Children were impressionable, often out of laziness, and would take any answer given to them when they could. She didn't want to put any names into Edgar's mouth for him.

So in 2006 when she wrote the story,she was very aware that you could be coerced into naming someone who is not guilty because "children are impressionable"
She blames this on being young,impressionable and laziness.
She pretty much gives an explanation about what happened to her during the interrogation.Did the interrogation somehow trigger something that happened in AK's childhood?Did she name a wrong name before because she was "impressionable" and it was just way easier to go with what was suggested instead of making sense of something by yourself? Was she looking for the teacher,for someone to "take charge" of her thoughts,so she would not have to deal with it on her own?

Very astute analysis!!!

 

[SMK]

I tend to think a conspiracy gets more unlikely the greater the number of people who are required to keep the secret. (This is just one reason 9/11 conspiracies make no sense to me.)

It is possible the prosecution objected to the testing just out of a principle from Lawyering 101: never ask a question if you don't know the answer. If Mignini thought he didn't need RG's or RS' semen on the pillowcase, why take a chance he'll be surprised by adding some new party to the scene?

Right, but he should be seeking the truth, guess that sounds too idealistic, but it sickens me that all of this is just careerism and supporting one's own ambitions...

 

[SMK]

She did remember what she did.Just not the exact times. Her story of watching a movie, dinner, and having sex with Raf remained the same for four straight days of questioning until on November 5th ILE convinced her that her memory was wrong and that she had been at the cottage that night. The next day she went back to claiming the same sequence of events she'd stated all along.

But on the subject of youth and memory... I'm 32 now, and when I was a 15 year old freshman in high school I was at a boarding school and had an incident occur where I was accused of stealing soda cans from another student's room. There had been some sort of social where the sodas were free to take and in abundance, and in that setting sodas were like cigarettes in a prison to us. This one guy went and grabbed some 30 cans for himself and stashed them in the bottom drawer of his dresser and had shown off the stash to a few of us. What I remember is that at some point the next day I went in his room which was open and showed another student the stash, just as a gesture of like "check this out!" and that was it I thought. But apparently someone soon after stole all of them from his room and I became the prime suspect. I had to stand up for myself, swearing on everything that I hadn't taken the darn soda cans from his room. To my shock, the other guy I'd shown the stash to told him right in front of me that he'd seen me take them! I was in disbelief. I knew I had stolen nothing but there was now apparently this eyewitness who'd seen me take the cans. I spent days trying to convince this guy, who now hated my guts, that I would never steal from anyone. But it looked bad that I'd taken the liberty of going into his room uninvited when he wasn't there. I couldn't really explain my bad decision. But I tell you, as time went by I started replaying the situation in my mind and actually started to wonder if I had taken the cans but forgot about it. To this day my memory is so fuzzy of it that I don't remember for certain what I did. Maybe I took one can and that's what the guy saw. Maybe I took a few. I really don't think I took anything, but it's bothered me to this day, and I hate that I can't 100 % trust my memory of what I actually did. I will say, when you have multiple people telling you know you did something when you swear you don't remember doing it, it really wears on you and causes you to second guess yourself.

This is a good point. First, it is horrible to be accused of something you did not do. Second, you begin to distrust your own memory and version of events - and Amanda DID say EXACTLY this, that if what the police were saying was true, "then I am confused, and my dreams are real". Kafka wrote The Trial in 1925 about this very thing: A man is arrested, but they will not tell him specifically what he did, just that he is condemned.

 

[claudicici]

Very astute analysis!!!

:blushing:Thank you,I'm hoping to find time to read the other one today.Also Otto talked about one she wrote in prison under a different name,I can't find that one ...where is Otto anyways?