Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[wasnt_me]

You may be right that AK wasn't as close as she thought, but I think it's just as likely that the attitudes of the roommates hardened toward her after ILE convinced them that AK was responsible for MK's death. After the body is discovered and until AK is accused, she seems to be on the phone with FR half the time. I'm sure they were sharing updates each was hearing from ILE, but they sound like reasonably good friends to me (given they'd known one another for a matter of weeks).

As for not knowing the flatmates' plans, it has been reported that AK spent most of her time at RS' apartment once she met him, so maybe she just wasn't around when the other girls made their plans.

As for friction with the roommates, have there ever been four girls who shared such a small space without some conflict over chores, use of space, entertaining male guests, etc.? Add to that whatever language barriers existed and I'm sure there were conflicts. (I'm not saying four boys wouldn't also have conflicts. They just tend to work them out in different ways.)

But I promise you ILE started exploiting whatever frictions existed from the moment AK was first suspected. Maybe even before they focused on AK, since exploiting such conflicts tends to produce unexpected information.

True, true. I'll hold off on the "back-biting" theory for now.

 

[wasnt_me]

Here is her explanation of why she said MK often locked her door.



AK: I was going into all the rooms to see if there was anything stolen, and
I saw that my computer was there, and Laura's computer was there too. What
worried me was that Meredith's door was closed and when I called her, she didn't
answer.

LG: How did you interpret the fact that Meredith's door was locked right then?
Did it seem to you something normal or abnormal? Did it happen sometimes or very
rarely?

AK: Well, it happened to me sometimes to find that her door was locked, for
example if I called Meredith and she had just gotten out of the shower,
and wanted to change her clothes, and I would get near the door, I would
notice it was locked. But, then she was inside. She also locked it when
she went to England. But the fact that it was locked then, I didn't know
if she had gone to England, and if it was locked and she wasn't inside,
for me that was strange and I didn't...

LG: Okay, so that gives some clarification about Meredith's locked door.

And this here where she explains in more detail about saying Mk never locked her door.

LG: And at one point, the door was broken down.

AK: Yes, but I wasn't...

LG: Of Meredith's room?

AK: Yes, because I told them, look, the door is locked, and Filomena was going
Mamma Mia, it's never locked, it's never locked, and I said no, it's not true
that it's never locked, but it is strange.

So, It seems AK didn't must make a statement, "Oh, MK always locks her doors. It seems in respect of correctness, AK was pointing out that "NEVER" was too strict a word. BTW, I didn't really think Italians said "mamma mia!"

Hopefully, FR's testimony is somewhere online and we can see how she puts the events, too.

 

[wasnt_me]

Actually, I believe linguists and trial attorneys would say we should be suspicious if there were NOT discrepancies between AK's and RS' accounts.

This got me thinking. I want to start putting side by side every piece of their statements that I can get from credible sources that claim to be their "actual" words. And then we can see if they are too "Similiar" or "too different," whatever the case might be.

 

[wasnt_me]

Okay, I'm back on the poo, but then I have to figure out how to let this go for the night.

Now, she says the poo was on top, but then they say it sank. How long does it take Poo to do this? What causes this to happen? I ask because if RG pooed about 14 hours prior, wouldn't it have already sank?

So I immediately thought that they were the people that Raffaele had
called, so I said to them, come, come in, there's this door that was open,
there's this door that's locked, then there are these faeces which aren't there
any more -- ah, because when we were there before the police arrived, I had taken
a really quick look to see if the faeces were still in the toilet, and they had
gone down a bit, whereas when I saw them they were on top, the fact that I
didn't see them, I thought mamma mia, someone flushed the toilet. I didn't
really look inside, just from the entrance to the bathroom. So then I was taken
by this sense of fear, because I thought mamma mia, while I was taking my shower,
someone was here in the house! I explained this really really fast to the
police, half in English half in Italian, because at that point I didn't speak
very well, and they--

Does it literally float in the first place? I don't pay that much attention to my poo, but I might have to next time. It'd be my grossest experiment ever to see what happens to my poo in the toilet in about a 14 hour time span, huh?

OR maybe water pressure moved the poo when she was showering and stuff and it floated back up long enough for her to see, but then went back down. Y'all's opinions?

 

[flourish]

Okay, I'm back on the poo, but then I have to figure out how to let this go for the night.

Now, she says the poo was on top, but then they say it sank. How long does it take Poo to do this? What causes this to happen? I ask because if RG pooed about 14 hours prior, wouldn't it have already sank?

So I immediately thought that they were the people that Raffaele had
called, so I said to them, come, come in, there's this door that was open,
there's this door that's locked, then there are these faeces which aren't there
any more -- ah, because when we were there before the police arrived, I had taken
a really quick look to see if the faeces were still in the toilet, and they had
gone down a bit, whereas when I saw them they were on top, the fact that I
didn't see them, I thought mamma mia, someone flushed the toilet. I didn't
really look inside, just from the entrance to the bathroom. So then I was taken
by this sense of fear, because I thought mamma mia, while I was taking my shower,
someone was here in the house! I explained this really really fast to the
police, half in English half in Italian, because at that point I didn't speak
very well, and they--

Does it literally float in the first place? I don't pay that much attention to my poo, but I might have to next time. It'd be my grossest experiment ever to see what happens to my poo in the toilet in about a 14 hour time span, huh?

OR maybe water pressure moved the poo when she was showering and stuff and it floated back up long enough for her to see, but then went back down. Y'all's opinions?

Well, I am not embarrassed to admit that I own the book, "What's Your Poo Telling You?" It's funny and informative at the same time--yes, I have read the entire thing, and guess where?? :loser: :floorlaugh:

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Your-Po...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303269234&sr=8-1

I don't think the book went into a whole lot of detail on the floating/sinking subject, but if I understand and/or recall correctly, it depends greatly on what you eat (which is kind of a 'duh,' of course). Apparently, foods high in fat can cause poo to be more likely to float than less-fatty foods. And, one would guess (that one being me) that all poo eventually sinks. It had never occurred to me about whether it sinks then floats again later, though. So...thanks for that, wasn't_me :sick: :seeya: Yay!

Also, if you checked out the various images of European toilets, you can see that some of them have a little drain piece in the front, while others don't. I didn't specifically investigate Italian toilets, let alone Perugian ones, though.

I'm guessing the amount of water in the toilet, as well as the slope of the porcelain can affect the downhill journey of the poo. Even in the States toilets aren't all the same--you know, public toilets are quite different than private toilets. And you should see the teensy toilets we have at some preschools/daycares,etc.!

Then you have to consider the "slipperiness" of the porcelain, which, I'm guessing would depend greatly on the age of said porcelain, as well as its state of cleanliness at the time of said pooing. Also, there's those little holes under the rim of toilets (the ones I'm familiar with, U.S.), where the water comes from when you flush...and sometimes one of those gets clogged or...something, and so there is uneven water flow.

So, I guess the, uh, bottom line here is that it depends on a bunch of factors, so our chances of figuring it out are pretty $*&%y, yeah? :giggle:

I thought a post re: bras, which I made on one of this thread's earlier incarnations, was the oddest post I'd written on WS. Well, this one just bumped it for #1. :loser: :crazy: :waitasec: :rocker:

 

[wasnt_me]

:floorlaugh:Flourish!

I woke my dogs up laughing when i read this post!!! I'm gonna have to read it again tomorrow when I'm not crying with laughter and tears.

You are hereby our poo and toilet forensic expert!!! Thanks for going where no one else had been willing to go!



:floorlaugh::rocker::floorlaugh:

"What's your poo telling you?" LOL DONT ANSWER that question.


But You got some detailed information, so I'm gonna read this tomorrow. I just had to tell you how hard you made me laugh tonight with the title of that book and the pictures!

 

[wasnt_me]

I was trying to post this before I went to bed, but I turned down Poo Lane with Flourish's excellent research not only on toilets, but floating poo and slopes of toilet bowls. Flourish, you are the bomb! (awesome)

Anyways this is what I was trying to post: (I don't even remember what it was myself now, but I'll see when I paste this quote)

AK: When I started university in the US, I wanted to visit another country to
study. I first started by studying German and creative writing. Following
on these two paths, I didn't know if I wanted to be a writer or an
interpreter, or both, but following this idea I heard about a program
where you could learn Italian and creative writing in Rome. So I thought,
how wonderful, I could learn a Latin language and then I would be more
at ease in different countries, and I could also study creative writing while
learning another language. But then, after having taken a basic course in
Italian grammar, I liked it so much that, looking at the courses that were
offered here in Italy, I got advice that instead of going to Rome where there
are so many tourists, it would be better for me to go to a smaller place
where I could be surrounded by Italians instead of other Americans and all.
So this is why I decided to come to Italy, because my Italian was worse than
my German.

CDV: How many languages do you speak, Amanda?

AK: [Laughing] I speak English, German and Italian now. I studied other
languages, but I can't say I speak them.

CDV: What other languages have you studied?

AK: Japanese, Latin, and...




Oh, now I remember. This is because Nova and I were talking about how well she might have known Italian and if she'd studied it. Turns out, SHE DID NOT! She took a grammar course and then moved there. Do I have this correct?

So being there a month, you cannot tell me she knew enough Italian to survive in that interrogation room. And it's probable that she thought emergency was 9-11 instead of 112 because I doubt she knew anything about everyday life there, either. Poor Amanda. I seriously doubt she did this crime. Poor RS. They're just young idiots in love who did young idiot things. NOw back to this poo research...

 

[Allusonz]

:floorlaugh:

Well, I am not embarrassed to admit that I own the book, "What's Your Poo Telling You?" It's funny and informative at the same time--yes, I have read the entire thing, and guess where?? :loser: :floorlaugh:

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Your-Poo-Telling-You/dp/0811857824/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303269234&sr=8-1

I don't think the book went into a whole lot of detail on the floating/sinking subject, but if I understand and/or recall correctly, it depends greatly on what you eat (which is kind of a 'duh,' of course). Apparently, foods high in fat can cause poo to be more likely to float than less-fatty foods. And, one would guess (that one being me) that all poo eventually sinks. It had never occurred to me about whether it sinks then floats again later, though. So...thanks for that, wasn't_me :sick: :seeya: Yay!

Also, if you checked out the various images of European toilets, you can see that some of them have a little drain piece in the front, while others don't. I didn't specifically investigate Italian toilets, let alone Perugian ones, though.

I'm guessing the amount of water in the toilet, as well as the slope of the porcelain can affect the downhill journey of the poo. Even in the States toilets aren't all the same--you know, public toilets are quite different than private toilets. And you should see the teensy toilets we have at some preschools/daycares,etc.!

Then you have to consider the "slipperiness" of the porcelain, which, I'm guessing would depend greatly on the age of said porcelain, as well as its state of cleanliness at the time of said pooing. Also, there's those little holes under the rim of toilets (the ones I'm familiar with, U.S.), where the water comes from when you flush...and sometimes one of those gets clogged or...something, and so there is uneven water flow.

So, I guess the, uh, bottom line here is that it depends on a bunch of factors, so our chances of figuring it out are pretty $*&%y, yeah? :giggle:

I thought a post re: bras, which I made on one of this thread's earlier incarnations, was the oddest post I'd written on WS. Well, this one just bumped it for #1. :loser: :crazy: :waitasec: :rocker:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

OMG I am dying of laughter here!!! The gang, in our straight jackets while relaxing in Perugia has now taken on a whole new meaning

On a more serious note, the information you researched is actually quite important. Ask anyone with gastro problems, Celiac, IBD,

Yes they do float depending on density, composition (like fats) etc etc

Oh man I am killing myself laughing :giggle: to funny flourish

 

[Allusonz]

Good question. So either AK or RS misremembers the position of FR's door.

And that is suspicious because...? What does either gain from lying about it?

The first time AK went home that morning, she found some things seemed odd but not really alarming. Maybe FR's door was open and AK wasn't paying attention. (In my house, we joke all the time about my partner "hiding things in plain sight." Leaving something out really is the best way to make it invisible to me.)

By the time she returned with RS, he had suggested to her that they should be concerned and both were looking for what was out of place. Maybe AK opened FR's door and RS forgot, or maybe they both just looked into the room for the first time.

If we're going to convict people over discrepancies such as this one, then we might as well all line up for the needle.

IIRC Filomena's door was closed

"raffael and i gathered our things and went back to my house.
i unlocked the door and im going to tell this really slowly to get
everything right so just have patience with me. the living
room/kitchen was fine. looked perfectly normal. i was checking for
signs of our things missing, should there have been a burglar in our
house the night before. filomenas room was closed, but when i opned
the door her room and a mess and her window was open and completely
broken, but her computer was still sitting on her desk like it always
was and this confused me"

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/02/from-amanda-knox.html

 

[Allusonz]

If the break-in was discovered when AK returned with RS then who opened Filomena's door in the meantime?



http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2007/11_Novembre/07/perudia_murder.shtml

It was not open they opened it when they returned

"raffael and i gathered our things and went back to my house.
i unlocked the door and im going to tell this really slowly to get
everything right so just have patience with me. the living
room/kitchen was fine. looked perfectly normal. i was checking for
signs of our things missing, should there have been a burglar in our
house the night before. filomenas room was closed, but when i opned
the door her room and a mess and her window was open and completely
broken, but her computer was still sitting on her desk like it always
was and this confused me"

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/02/from-amanda-knox.html

 

[Allusonz]

That's possible, I suppose. Thanks for offering another theory instead of picking the one I had apart. I really appreciate it.

I know this sounds crazy but from the first I had just assumed the wind blew it closed. As I often try to keep my windows open doors slamming around here is normal. It was just an assumption I had made based on my own experiences thus I was surprised to read the debate on whom had closed it. WE ALL learn new things

 

[Allusonz]

From what I understand, European toilets don't always look like the ones in the States. I did a google search for "European toilets" and checked out the images...there's a wider variety than I would have imagined...I can't post some of the pics, though, because I'm at work and IT has some stuff blocked...but...ya'll know how to google.

Speaking of that...the other week ago, someone mentioned that they didn't understand why AK would go back to her house to take a shower instead of taking one at RS's. After a quick google search, I found that it turns out European showers aren't always the same as the ones in the States, so perhaps the one at the cottage was more like what she was used to and the one at RS's was more of the "unusual" (to AK) European styles.

eta: not to mention that she maybe wanted to get a change of clothes, etc...her makeup and hair stuff was there....also, it occurred to me that she might not have wanted to poo at RS's house....that's something that as a young woman I always freaked out about early in relationships...(as if no one else ever poos or something LOL)

Ah the crazy things you learn about on WS

BBM

I had to look it up as well and was surprised at how many different types there are

The last paragraph makes a lot of good points. This was a new relationship she had not moved in thus much of her stuff was probably still at the cottage. Her returning home to shower change etc has always made sense to me

Must admit never thought much about the last (sorry I laughing all over again) but it reminds me of how red I would turn if I accidently had a bit of gas and nooooooooooooo not the gas you put in vehicles :giggle:

ETA As well if she thought she would be working, it probably was not planned on her staying the evening thus she would not have the clothing changes etc., thus also providing a need for returning in the morning

 

[Allusonz]

:floorlaugh:Flourish!

I woke my dogs up laughing when i read this post!!! I'm gonna have to read it again tomorrow when I'm not crying with laughter and tears.

You are hereby our poo and toilet forensic expert!!! Thanks for going where no one else had been willing to go!



:floorlaugh::rocker::floorlaugh:

"What's your poo telling you?" LOL DONT ANSWER that question.


But You got some detailed information, so I'm gonna read this tomorrow. I just had to tell you how hard you made me laugh tonight with the title of that book and the pictures!

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

dang I truly was looking forward to flourish's response :innocent:

 

[claudicici]

To be clear, this was written a year before the murder happened, right?

yes,it was .The myspace blog is dated 2006

 

[ziggy]

I'm pretty sure flourish's poo post was about the funniest post I've read in a long time!!!

I don't even care why we would want to know anymore! It made me snort a little

 

[sherlockh]

Good question. So either AK or RS misremembers the position of FR's door.

And that is suspicious because...? What does either gain from lying about it?

The first time AK went home that morning, she found some things seemed odd but not really alarming. Maybe FR's door was open and AK wasn't paying attention. (In my house, we joke all the time about my partner "hiding things in plain sight." Leaving something out really is the best way to make it invisible to me.)

By the time she returned with RS, he had suggested to her that they should be concerned and both were looking for what was out of place. Maybe AK opened FR's door and RS forgot, or maybe they both just looked into the room for the first time.

If we're going to convict people over discrepancies such as this one, then we might as well all line up for the needle.

Why the need to continuously make up these kind of excuses for these two? Two suspects in a murder case making contradictory statements (this isn't exactly the only time) is not suspicious? She didn't notice, he misremembered? Ok then :waitasec:

 

[claudicici]

So um, I thought, strange, okay, let's see what Raffaele says,
because I didn't know what to think, and so I wanted to talk it over with him.
When I got back to his house, I...he was in the bathroom, and I started to clean
up the floor in the kitchen, but it was by now almost dry, just a bit of water
left because it had evaporated. Then he came out and we made breakfast, and
while we were preparing it and drinking coffee, I explained to him what I had
seen, and I asked him for advice, because when I went into my house, everything
seemed in order, only there were these little weird things, and I couldn't
figure out how to understand them.

LG: How worried were you?

AK: Excuse me?

LG: How worried were you when you left your house?

AK: Well, I had this strange sensation like, "What?" and it was a bit
like that, I didn't know how to explain it in my mind. That's why I wanted
to ask Raffaele. So he suggested I ask my roommates. So first I called
Meredith, who didn't answer, and then I think I called Filomena, and she
explained to me that Laura was in Rome, and that I should call back Meredith
and then return to the house to see if there was anything stolen. I told her,
look, everything seemed to be there, not as if someone entered and took
things away, because my computer was still in my room, I saw that the television
was still in the living room. For me, I hadn't even thought that there was
a robbery. I thought maybe someone went in and out really quickly, because
if someone leaves faeces in the toilet, maybe something had happened and they
had had to leave really really fast. Maybe. So Raffaele and I went out and went
to my house to look around and see how things were. This time we opened the
doors, for example the door to Filomena's room, and I saw that her window was
broken and there was a big mess. That's when I thought, oh gosh, it was a
robbery. And I was running around everywhere.

What stands out to me again is how AK seems to have the NEED for someone else to take action or suggest to her what to do.
I would assume a person who would find these strange things would make sure the roommates are not home,which would mean opening their doors and then trying to call them.But AK waits and lets RS make the decision what to do and then Filomena.
I don't buy she was not concerned enough especially after she discovers the "poo".
IMO the door to Filomena's room WAS open and so was MK's.
I think that's what confused her so much,traumatized her,in a way that she really could not make sense of anything and she tried to carry on as if it was just her mind playing tricks on her until she did confide in RS.
That's why I try to explain her behaviour to myself with maybe a syndrome and /or not being in a clear state of mind at the time.
Because if I can't explain it with that,she simply looks guilty to me again.

 

[Nova]

Okay, I'm back on the poo, but then I have to figure out how to let this go for the night.

Now, she says the poo was on top, but then they say it sank. How long does it take Poo to do this? What causes this to happen? I ask because if RG pooed about 14 hours prior, wouldn't it have already sank?

So I immediately thought that they were the people that Raffaele had
called, so I said to them, come, come in, there's this door that was open,
there's this door that's locked, then there are these faeces which aren't there
any more -- ah, because when we were there before the police arrived, I had taken
a really quick look to see if the faeces were still in the toilet, and they had
gone down a bit, whereas when I saw them they were on top, the fact that I
didn't see them, I thought mamma mia, someone flushed the toilet. I didn't
really look inside, just from the entrance to the bathroom. So then I was taken
by this sense of fear, because I thought mamma mia, while I was taking my shower,
someone was here in the house! I explained this really really fast to the
police, half in English half in Italian, because at that point I didn't speak
very well, and they--

Does it literally float in the first place? I don't pay that much attention to my poo, but I might have to next time. It'd be my grossest experiment ever to see what happens to my poo in the toilet in about a 14 hour time span, huh?

OR maybe water pressure moved the poo when she was showering and stuff and it floated back up long enough for her to see, but then went back down. Y'all's opinions?

I am SO uncomfortable with this subject, but for you I will say that in my experience, feces may float or not at first; it probably depends on the contents of the waste material. (Don't ask me which foods. I haven't made a study of this.)

As for floating at first and then sinking later, I assume that would happen as the waste material became increasingly water-logged. Again, I don't know what one would have to eat to achieve this or which wastes would float for how long.

 

[Nova]

Why the need to continuously make up these kind of excuses for these two? Two suspects in a murder case making contradictory statements (this isn't exactly the only time) is not suspicious? She didn't notice, he misremembered? Ok then :waitasec:

If two suspects in a murder case do NOT present discrepancies in their memories of events, then in all probability they are giving you a story they carefully rehearsed.

The idea that innocent people remember every detail correctly and always tell the truth openly and consistently is a total myth.

If ILE chose to do so, I promise you they could go through transcripts of Filomena and her boyfriend and find just as many discrepancies and lapses in memory. We just don't hear about those because ILE chose to accuse AK and RS (perhaps sincerely believing they were guilty).

As for "constantly making excuses" for these two, let's keep in mind the prosecutor couldn't even decide on a theory of the case; the theories he tried were preposterous (whether it be sex games or killing your flatmate over chores); two of the three conspirators had never met; and the so-called "ringleader" didn't speak the same language as either of her accomplices.

A discrepancy over whether a door was open is petty stuff considering the prosecution's case comes down to a few pieces of glass and a conspiracy that must have been made using mime.

 

[Nova]

...What stands out to me again is how AK seems to have the NEED for someone else to take action or suggest to her what to do.
I would assume a person who would find these strange things would make sure the roommates are not home,which would mean opening their doors and then trying to call them.But AK waits and lets RS make the decision what to do and then Filomena.
I don't buy she was not concerned enough especially after she discovers the "poo".
IMO the door to Filomena's room WAS open and so was MK's.
I think that's what confused her so much,traumatized her,in a way that she really could not make sense of anything and she tried to carry on as if it was just her mind playing tricks on her until she did confide in RS.
That's why I try to explain her behaviour to myself with maybe a syndrome and /or not being in a clear state of mind at the time.
Because if I can't explain it with that,she simply looks guilty to me again.

I realize it's odd to find feces unflushed in a toilet. Even AK says she found it odd. But in a house full of young people upstairs and down, I'm sure there were frequent visitors. (We've even heard a rumor that MK thought AK had too many visitors.) So the idea that one of them was careless in the bathroom--or that a toilet was malfunctioning, which is what I would assume--isn't so unbelievable.

Likewise, the open door. It's apparent from AK's testimony that the flatmates sometimes left the door unlocked if they went out briefly. What was strange was that nobody returned while she showered.

But neither of these things seems really ominous if you don't know there's a dead body in the next room.