Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

[SMK]

sniped for brevity:

Okay, I grant you it is fun getting back pats :great:

As one who pictures himself sitting in the jury room and hearing all the arguments mentioned (here on WS, and other sites) I do not feel AK is guilty. That doesn't not mean I find her innocent either, I simply have reasonable doubt.

Right Steve, you needn't find her innocent. The margin of reasonable doubt under standard jurisprudence is enough. And I give you a big pat on the back for that one!!!:great:

 

[Nova]

this is what I was reading...

Initially police and the pathologist Dr Luca Lalli worked on the theory that she had been the victim of a violent sex game that had gone wrong.

But now Dr Lalli has indicated to prosecutor Giuliano Mignini that there are "no markings or bruises" on Miss Kercher's body that indicate she was raped or sexually assaulted.

However Dr Lalli said that there did appear to be evidence of "some form of sexual activity" and that he could not rule out that she had been forced to take undergo a sex act "under the threat of violence."

The report said that male DNA, traced to suspect Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, was found inside Miss Kercher, from Coulsdon, Surrey, but the likelihood was that this was finger skin cells or at the outside chance saliva.

(snip)Dr Lalli also suggested that he could not rule out the possibility that the sex act could have in fact taken place the day before she was murdered.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1578560/Meredith-Kercher-may-not-have-been-raped.html​

sex in general can cause "bruising of the vagina and perineum" (waxing can too)... i'm guessing there were no typical signs of rape .. he had to of stabbed her first

BBM: I know from other cases that it isn't always possible to tell the difference between rape and consensual sex, nor is it possible to put an exact time on bruising to the vaginal region.

But Lalli can't tell the difference between skin cells and saliva?!

 

[Nova]

Thanks for poking your voice in. I have no idea what they are talking about. But it, along with other convuluted things, are in RG's appeal. You can find it at the true justice site. I downloaded it off that page that was talking about the CNN show.

Actually, it makes sense to me to acknowledge that a defendant might lie about some things (adultery, other crimes) but still be innocent of the charged offense (murder).

Isn't that what some of us have argued about AK and RS?

The opposing view that anyone who lies must be guilty of everything, regardless of whether there is corroborating evidence, certainly makes no sense.

 

[Nova]

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2...evidence-judge-tells-amanda-knox-prosecution/

"Stop withholding evidence, judge orders Amanda Knox prosecution"

This seems rather relevant to the current discussion. Looks like Hellman has demanded that Stefanoni hand over the .fsa files as well as other documents related to the DNA testing. This pretty much confirms what the Knox representatives have been saying all along. Apparently, Stefanoni isn't playing ball. I get a bad feelings that things will turn up "missing" when push comes to shove. We've had hard drives destroyed, interrogations not taped, forensic evidence corroded beyond retesting - - are these files next?

I wouldn't be surprised.

Can't help but note Dempsey's reference to RS as AK's "ex-Italian boyfriend".

I'm sure RS would like to change his nationality at this point, but I doubt it is possible. So "Italian ex-boyfriend" would be a better word choice.

 

[Nova]

I knew I'd get this question, but for me answer it, I'd have to go part by part and correct him on some of his dated "facts," correct what is really evidence and what has been already thrown out or discounted by the time of trial or the appeal, and it's really too much work. Honestly, or else I'd do it.

Maybe if the inspiration strikes me, I'll go for it, but the hard thing about this case if correcting people on dated "facts" and testimony that isn't really valid because the newspaper printed it wrong, witnesses have been discredited etc. I'm not copping out. Had a long day, but maybe i'll do it in the next couple days, so we can discuss it.

I'm half way through the CNN piece. Though I believe in AK and RS's innocence, I have to agree that the CNN story is not interested in really delving into the prosecution side. but again. I'm only 20 minutes into it (without commericals). It's 40 minutes without commericals. I can't say that I admonish them for being pro-innocence because in the first couple years, all we heard in the news was pro-guilt. It's actually good to hear touts of innocence coming out more and more. You might not see it that way, but I do.

The CNN piece is indicative of the "real" media bias we have discussed here before: a bias in favor of whatever makes the best story.

The "Foxy Knoxy" story was already told. Now that she's been convicted, there's no story UNLESS she was wrongly convicted. So that's now the story.

I still say, however, they gave Mignini a chance to refute every criticism of the prosecution. And despite the reporter's characterization of Mignini in a newspaper article as "confused", I don't think the TV show made him look confused.

(ETA: I'm talking about Mignini's demeanor not appearing "confused". Of course, he had no answer for a lot of things, but that isn't CNN's fault.)

 

[Nova]

...Several of the top forensic people in Italy have verified the testing done in the first instance... I'm sure you know this too. Duck and dodge just doesn't work regarding this FACT.

If it's a FACT, you should be able to provide a link.

***One question for you and the AK support group... Would these experts be ok with leaving the 2 in prison for 40+ more days if the testing wasn't valid in addition to the 3+ years they have been in there? Wouldn't they want to expedite their release or help towards gaining it if the evidence/testing wasn't valid? Will this testing be the one/two pieces that gain their release anyway? I don't think so....

Then you don't understand how justice systems work. They grind away at their own pace, I'm afraid. The other night I watched a program about a man wrongly accused in Texas: even after spending over 20 years in prison and after DNA testing proved his innocence and an appellate court ordered a new trial, he still spent ANOTHER FOUR YEARS in prison before the D.A. decided not to retry him. And that D.A. was portrayed as a hero!

Why this case is not analogous to cases such as those of Peterson, Cooper or Anderson has already been explained well by another poster. There's a big difference between killing a family member and killing a flatmate away from whom you could move at any time.

 

[Malkmus]

Haha, 'irrational and frankly a bit paranoid' sure does sound exactly like the thinking pro AK/RS factions use regarding Italian LE, jurors and prosecutors. Are these 'excuses' used or not regarding EVERY piece of evidence that points to their guilt?

Listen, Fred, we've established that you think much of what is being voiced from anyone who questions the verdicts is "making excuses". I'm just pointing out that you do the same, but from your perspective of things. So how about just drop the whole "excuses" form of argument because it doesn't get the discussion anywhere.

No excuses are needed for the prosecution side... the court found both guilty as charged. Excuses do come in handy for the other side... quite often if not always.

If no excuses need to be made for the prosecution then you should freely be able to admit that they did in fact withhold important information from the defense, and did keep the bra clasp in a jar of water as reported... among a dozen other mistakes made by ILE.

IMO the experts want to make extra-sure that the 2 accused are in prison after a complete and fair trial.

I would imagine Stefanoni dilly-dallying around Judge Hellman's request for the .fsa files is delaying things as well. Why do you think she just doesn't hand everything over?

Several of the top forensic people in Italy have verified the testing done in the first instance... I'm sure you know this too. Duck and dodge just doesn't work regarding this FACT.

It was reviewed by her boss. That's it. Hardly the "top forensic people in Italy". I believe that's what the independent experts are. You do realize that's the whole point of this independent review, right? The fact that the original results were only scrutinized by Stefanoni and her boss and no one else? If they had already been reviewed by "the top forensic people" this wouldn't be happening right now.

***One question for you and the AK support group... Would these experts be ok with leaving the 2 in prison for 40+ more days if the testing wasn't valid in addition to the 3+ years they have been in there? Wouldn't they want to expedite their release or help towards gaining it if the evidence/testing wasn't valid?

What a strange question. The experts being delayed (because of issues related to the deteriorated bra clasp and not being given all the documents by the prosecution) has no bearing on whether they feel like AK and RS should sit in prison for 40 more days. Even if the delay has nothing to do with those things, it's ludicrous to think that they would rush to any sort of conclusion about the findings just so the pair don't sit in jail longer.

Will this testing be the one/two pieces that gain their release anyway? I don't think so.

No, of course not. I believe Hellman wishes to get these two pieces out of the way first though. If they stand up to Stefanoni's original findings I believe that will be it and the two will remain convicted. But if the knife and bra are found to be two giant red herrings, then he will open up reassessment of the other pieces of evidence such as computer activity and so forth.

There will still be the mixed blood/dna traces in the bathroom and Filomena's room,

Yes, DNA that only proves she was present in her own house.

the SEVERAL changing alibis,

One change in alibi. AK's story only changed the night of November 5th under highly questionable tactics.

the accusation of Patrick,

Which won't be used in court actually. Only her written note to ILE is permissible and she doesn't accuse Patrick in it.

the luminal prints in the hallway,

Which tested negative for blood and are assumed to be AK and RS's.

the staged break-in,

Which looks like a real break-in and was assumed fake based on the initial speculation of the postal police who thought it was odd that items such as a laptop weren't stolen. When they found out items were indeed stolen from Meredith's purse they never reevaluated the break-in.

the lies,

Right. They maybe ate dinner earlier than what AK remembers.

and most telling of all- NO ALIBI for the time period in which Meredith was murdered. That is enough here, in Italy, and just about everywhere.

The most telling piece of evidence to you is the lack of alibi?! Wow.

A couple of examples would be the Brad Cooper trial (almost completely circumstancial evidence found him guilty of murdering his wife. Are you going to 'fight' for his release?) and Casey Anthony (how many of you 'think' she is innocent? How much actual evidence is against her except for lies and circumstancial evidence? Are you going to 'fight' for her if she is found guilty? Was it just- Casey being Casey and her telling the best truths she can remember?)

Fred, as far as fighting for every other criminal who was found guilty based upon circumstantial evidence I think you need to take a step back and realize that if it isn't just people like me on a forum who think the evidence against the pair is insufficient, but also organizations such as the Innocence Project, various FBI agents, and an assortment of news agencies - that maybe we feel so for good reason. Why don't you ask yourself why the Innocence project isn't helping Joran Van Dersloot or Scott Peterson. Why no experts are coming forth for their innocence, no FBI agents, and no newspapers are questioning their guilt.

Also, I don't even understand this tactic of "Look, these people were found guilty based on circumstantial evidence" therefore AK and RS must be guilty too - - I mean it's just shortsighted to view these cases in such black and white issues. A different set of evidence is used in every case. Sometimes it holds up- as with Joran and Scott, and sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys/gals even want to hear a different opinion than 'they are innocent' 'they were railroaded' 'it is an injustice' 'etc' ... or are just happy patting each other on the back and agreeing with each other's post regarding them being innocent. :waitasec:

I would appreciate more people coming here and discussing their viewpoints, especially if they find the pair guilty. It's a shame that the majority hole themselves up in the PMF fortress instead of openly discussing the case with people who don't share their same point of view. As far as "patting each other on the back". That happens on both sides of this argument.

 

[miley]

BBM: I know from other cases that it isn't always possible to tell the difference between rape and consensual sex, nor is it possible to put an exact time on bruising to the vaginal region.

here is something else... frank wrote:

Sunday, April 5, 2009:The hearing continued behind closed doors with the prosecutors' experts. Medical examiner Vincenza Liviero and gynecologist Mauro Marchionni, confirmed that according to them it was a crime committed by more people and the sexual violence is certain. By what leaked they brought in support pictures of some cuts on the vagina. Cuts which can, actually, only have occurred during the autopsy, since Dr Lalli, the performer of it, wouldn't find them and they don't appear in his pictures. So, not that certain after all...
It's really useless trying to figure out the hearing through the lawyers. Everyone will give you his own version. But we don't need them, if something new had emerged we would have known.
LINK: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html​

But Lalli can't tell the difference between skin cells and saliva?!

I know! oh well, I have no way of knowing whats typical, this is the first case I've ever really truly followed... I guess I'll throw my hands up on this one


ETA: okay, I just read wasnt_me's post from yesterday... I didn't realize there was 'inner thigh bruising" too

ETA (again):... or did the bruising occur during the autopsy too?

 

[Allusonz]

Italian prosecutor files defamation lawsuit, shutters blog

New York, May 11, 2011--The Committee to Protect Journalists authorities calls on Florence and Perugia to drop the trumped-up defamation lawsuit against Perugia Shock, an English-language blog created and maintained by Frank Sfarzo, an Italian freelance journalist and blogger. Sfarzo has endured sustained harassment in retaliation for his reporting and commentary on the official investigation into the November 2007 murder of British exchange student Meredith Kercher

http://www.cpj.org/2011/05/italian-prosecutor-files-defamation-lawsuit-shutte.php

 

[Allusonz]

BBM: I know from other cases that it isn't always possible to tell the difference between rape and consensual sex, nor is it possible to put an exact time on bruising to the vaginal region.

But Lalli can't tell the difference between skin cells and saliva?!

I am certain he can but if IIRC back to the beginning of this case there seemed to be an issue with him. We know he recorded the autopsy and they found nothing wrong with it so wish my brain at the moment was not so tired as to try and remember all the details

 

[Allusonz]

i'm not sure when he went out of town and I think (like Allusonz was saying) this part of the trial was done behind closed doors.

I am really going on memory here will try and check back in old files. I believe she was with friends the night of Halloween. I as well thought that some of the stains were still damp but I could very well be wrong on this

 

[Allusonz]

IIP is uploading perugia shock probably won't be finished till much later thus good news here is the link

http://perugiashock.com

Sorry still at the office all will try and post more later

 

[Nova]

I was watching a program called "Solved" yesterday that dealt with a murder in Edmond, OK, that was only solved after 20 years because the killer left a very clear footprint in blood at the crime scene, a print that was matched to him decades later.

What struck me was the testimony from the forensic techs on how rare footprint evidence is. The scientist who broke the case talked about how he hadn't seen a case that hinged on bare footprints in his 15 years in his profession.

He said shoeprints were common, bare footprints practically unheard of.

He even had to invent a methodology in order to compare the bloody footprint with one taken from the killer 20 years later.

All of which made me wonder how reliable are the testimonies re footprints in the Perugia case? If bare footprints are as unusual in Italy as they are here, did the "experts" really even have the knowledge necessary to make the matches they made?

 

[otto]

Given his track record with reporters, I am surprised that Mignini didn't do this a long time ago.

It is quite obvious what is going on here. I am just sad that this is OK with the Italian public.

I think the outcome will be that both of them are cleared eventually. jmo

I guess Frank accused the prosecutor of having drug ties. I guess that's a bit of a problem in Italy - falsely accusing a prosecutor of being having ties to the drug world, or falsely accusing a bar owner of being a murderer. I'm surprised anyone thinks that it's okay to falsely accuse innocent people of being criminals.

"Sfarzo, the man responsible for the Perugia Shock blog, accused Mignini of having ties to drug dealers."
http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=479102

 

[otto]

IIP is uploading perugia shock probably won't be finished till much later thus good news here is the link

http://perugiashock.com

Sorry still at the office all will try and post more later

I wonder if actions like that will make things worse for Frank.

 

[Nova]

I wonder if actions like that will make things worse for Frank.

OTTO!


I don't know the answer to your question, but it's very good to see you!

 

[SMK]

I guess Frank accused the prosecutor of having drug ties. I guess that's a bit of a problem in Italy - falsely accusing a prosecutor of being having ties to the drug world, or falsely accusing a bar owner of being a murderer. I'm surprised anyone thinks that it's okay to falsely accuse innocent people of being criminals.

"Sfarzo, the man responsible for the Perugia Shock blog, accused Mignini of having ties to drug dealers."
http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=479102

From all I know of Sfarzo and of Mignini, the former had no reason to fabricate anything about the latter. Clearly, it is in Frank's best interest to stick to the facts, and he is fully aware of this. He is not a 20 year old girl under interrogation. Mignini was, after all, sentenced to 16 months in prison for breaking the law. He has shown that his boundaries are not as clear as many in law enforcement. Indeed, he has the "make it so" protocol of a man with great power, power which may have a corrupting influence on he who possesses it. I am not going to believe that Sfarzo has lied unless it is proven so.

 

[SMK]

OTTO!


I don't know the answer to your question, but it's very good to see you!

I second that! I missed Otto.

 

[SMK]

I wonder if actions like that will make things worse for Frank.

I would think it may cause trouble for IIP, as it was a high court order which Google acted upon.

 

[SMK]

I was watching a program called "Solved" yesterday that dealt with a murder in Edmond, OK, that was only solved after 20 years because the killer left a very clear footprint in blood at the crime scene, a print that was matched to him decades later.

What struck me was the testimony from the forensic techs on how rare footprint evidence is. The scientist who broke the case talked about how he hadn't seen a case that hinged on bare footprints in his 15 years in his profession.

He said shoeprints were common, bare footprints practically unheard of.

He even had to invent a methodology in order to compare the bloody footprint with one taken from the killer 20 years later.

All of which made me wonder how reliable are the testimonies re footprints in the Perugia case? If bare footprints are as unusual in Italy as they are here, did the "experts" really even have the knowledge necessary to make the matches they made?

Yes, this does raise interesting questions about such prints as evidence, doesn't it?