Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

[wasnt_me]

Going over the CNN transcript of Mig's interview, I have to wonder when the interview was done because some of the things Mig discusses, he discusses them as if they are facts, but then they are things that are later disproved. even by the motivation report. I'm confused at why he does that. I think he actually mentioned the mot report, so it had to be done after that.

Maybe he refuses to accept some of the findings and insists on it being the way he remembers. I see a lot of fluff in his interview. I see a lot of information that I could just line edit right out and show that he didn't even answer the questions, or he used outdated information or information that went against the judge's report. I'm only on page 8, though.

I find the argument that the break in was fake because the front door hadn't been damaged to be almost the weakest thing I've ever heard.

The interviewer does not appear to press Mig or make him answer questions. For example, the interviewer asks about cuts on RS's hands, if there were any. Mig starts talking about the bruise on AK's neck. Never says anything in his LONG response about RS's hands. They then move to another subject. Looks like I might have to go through line by line just weed the bs out and find the real, but non existent answers Mig gives.

 

[Nova]

There's no question it was just her DNA and not blood. You can believe Otto that because Meredith was murdered 4 years ago, he forgot and just said that by mistake, or you can believe he had ulterior motives for bending the truth on national television.

From what I can tell, he's saying that because they only knew each other for 6 days she never would have touched the knife for innocent reasons, you know, such as helping him cook. More b.s.

ETA: Which is a more ridiculous premise? That a couple who have been dating for 6 days would cook together, or that after a day or two of dating a guy would give his girlfriend a 12 inch kitchen knife to carry in her purse for protection?

BBM: Based on the next couple of sentences, Mignini seems to be saying Meredith wouldn't have had occasion to touch the knife, not Amanda. Perhaps he is referring to RS' statement that he accidentally poked MK with the kitchen knife. (I think we all assume that statement was just a response to LE saying they had ironclad proof of MK's blood on the knife. RS knew the knife hadn't gone to Meredith, so he tried to bring Meredith to the knife.)

At least that's how I read it.

 

[Nova]

I don't know about Italy, but I guess I was referring to the USA, where the prosecution by the perponderance of the evidence, while the defense "only" has to raise reasonable doubt.

That isn't correct re U.S. law. In criminal cases the prosecution must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. "Preponderance" doesn't enter into it (unless there is some special exception I haven't heard about.)

In civil cases the prosecution only has the burden of proving that the preponderance of the evidence (sometimes described as "51%") supports the prosecution's claim.

 

[Nova]

If it was binding and the appeals court could not make up its own mind, then there is no point to even have an appeal. Can courts not disagree?

One should think so, since different courts hear different evidence. But I was responding to posts saying the Supreme Court's conclusion that RG did not act alone boded ill for AK and RS.

I thought an "appeal" in Italy was a complete review of the evidence, but some posters claim the appellate court is only reviewing the issues it has questioned publicly (DNA and the homeless witness).

 

[Nova]

He wasnt speaking english in the interview. I recall words on the screen I had to read and I remember a discussion earlier where I think Nova (I always think Nova said something, by the way) was telling Otto that Mig had 3 translators and Otto was disagreeing. I think they were debating that, but I'm pretty sure it was when the two of them and dfred were discussing the validity of the CNN interview.

I don't remember an argument, but Malkmus mentioned the three translators a couple of pages ago, not I. I have no knowledge of this subject.

But it's very sweet of you to give me so much credit.

 

[Nova]

There is only ONE hope for AK and RS regarding their appeals IMO:

That is (which you guys/gals MIGHT could possibly influence if not just in a tiny way like through letters to him, and appealing to his lawyers) for RG to admit he killed her or was there, with help and NAME the other person or persons.

Why has he not 'saved' them? What does he have to lose at this point? Could he not just say AK and RS were not the others there, that at least he had seen that much?
Admitting his offense does offer some benefits while in Italian prison IIRC.

For the most part that happens only in the movies.

In real life the vast majority of convicts claim to be innocent. Some are even telling the truth. The others figure they may get better treatment in prison or from supporters if they insist they are innocent.

 

[Nova]

No, not at all but it is slightly amusing (if not for the murder that is the REAL point of the discussion) that intelligent individuals would think that the behavior of those 'supporting' AK (most of which her own defense team has basically begged to stop) is both reasonable and authentic. IMO most are just 'yanking the chain' of good-faith posters and don't honestly 'believe' that AK and RS are innocent.
Also IMO it is or should be EMBARRASSING the lengths that the PR firm has obviously gone, it is with CNN's lack of control of a 'show' on their station, it is with the excuses made here/family/bloggers/so-called journalist/interviewers/etc. A girl was murdered, it shouldn't be this way IMO.

Why not admit:
1- They had zero alibi.
2- Both lied at some or multiple points to police and investigators.
3- AK accused an innocent man.
4- AK's behavior/clothing in court was inappropriate.
5- They had a fair trial and there was no 'conspiracy' against them.
6- They were somehow involved, but didn't kill Meredith.

Even one would be a good start, not that it is expected.

1. UNTRUE. They had the same alibi most innocent people have: one another.

2. TRUE. Happy now?

3. TRUE.

4. IRRELEVANT.

5. UNTRUE as to "fair" trial, UNKNOWN as to a conspiracy.

6. UNTRUE IMO.

Everyone agrees as to #2 and #3, so I don't know why you are complaining that nobody will admit any of your points. A full third are universally acknowledged.

 

[Nova]

okay, according to the article I just posted:

Stefanoni has been putting the judge off as he has requested files of her findings. Hellmann sent her a handwritten note on April 4 ordering her to produce the files. Tomorrow the judge is expected to ask why she has ignored his requests. dragging the process out of giving over the DNA data. She has refused so far, in a letter to the judge.

Why is this? So if I'm reading this right, she refused in a letter AFTER being a no-show and after the judge sending her a formal letter on April 4th?

Why? Can't she be held in contempt or something. Why is Nova asleep and not in here when I need him? Not to mention the rest of the island gang, who seems to have gone to bed. Y'all know who you are.

:desert:

Wow it also says Mig is trying to prosecute the slander trial when he's the plantiff of it!

I'm in California and still up, but I think it's Malkmus you want. I assume the court has some options for dealing with Stefanoni, but thus far has chosen not to use them. I assume this because charges are piled on for everything else, why not for contempt of court?

But it's become increasingly clear there are not the checks and balances one might like in the Italian system, so I'm not sure.

 

[SMK]

Wow, I wake up and she has already been in court ! :

CBS/AP)
PERUGIA, Italy - A tearful Amanda Knox said Saturday that being in prison is "very frustrating and mentally exhausting," as the American student convicted of murdering her roommate insisted she is innocent and does not want to spend the rest of her life behind bars.

Knox was emotional as she briefly addressed the appeals court in Perugia at the end of the session, her voice breaking at times and her eyes tearing up. She was convicted in 2009 of sexually assaulting and murdering British student Meredith Kercher, and sentenced to 26 years in prison.

"I've spent more than three and a half years in prison as an innocent person, and this for me is very frustrating and mentally exhausting," Knox said. "But nothing is more important that finding the truth after prejudices and many mistakes.

"I don't want to spend my whole life in prison as an innocent," the 23-year-old said.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/21/earlyshow/main20064979.shtml

AND:


BREAKING NEWS1:08pm UK, Saturday May 21, 2011
Inmates To Give Evidence In Knox Appealhttp://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Amanda-Knox-Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Appeal-Inmates-To-Give-Evidence-In-Appeal-Court-Rules/Article/201105315996591?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header_0&lid=ARTICLE_15996591_Amanda_Knox_Meredith_Kercher_Murder_Appeal%3A_Inmates_To_Give_Evidence_In_Appeal%2C_Court_Rules

Earlier, a 40-day extension was granted to review DNA evidence used in the case.
It means a verdict is unlikely before the autumn - almost four years after 21-year-old Meredith was found dead.
The court in Perugia also ruled that five prisoners who have written letters claiming to have information on the case will be allowed to give evidence.
Knox has repeatedly protested her innocence and did so again when she spoke in court on Saturday.
The 23-year-old broke down in tears as she told the court she did not want to spend the rest of her life behind bars.
She made a 90-second statement at the end of her latest appeal hearing.
Dressed in a beige satin top and black trousers, Knox took several deep breaths as she addressed the court, as her father Curt and best friend Madison Paxton looked on.
She said: "I am innocent and have been in jail for more than three-and-a-half years.

 

[SMK]

The forensic experts retesting evidence as part of Knox's appeal are now scheduled to present their results on June 30 to a jury composed of two judges and six citizens.

That evidence includes a knife found in Sollecito's apartment with Knox's DNA on the handle and what Perugia prosecutors say is Kercher's DNA in a tiny groove on the blade.
The prosecution contends that the knife was used to stab Kercher in the neck and that it had been cleaned. The DNA matter attributed to Kercher consists of flesh, not blood, they say.

The sample, however, was so small that forensic scientists investigating Kercher's murder were not able to double test it in accordance with international forensic science norms, which Knox's legal team says raises doubts about its validity.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/21/italy.amanda.knox/

 

[wasnt_me]

That isn't correct re U.S. law. In criminal cases the prosecution must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. "Preponderance" doesn't enter into it (unless there is some special exception I haven't heard about.)

In civil cases the prosecution only has the burden of proving that the preponderance of the evidence (sometimes described as "51%") supports the prosecution's claim.

getting my courts confused. thanks.

 

[SMK]

another article:

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/05/20/news/amanda-knox-murder-trial-appeal-hearing-tomorrow-

At about 1:00 a.m. Seattle time tomorrow morning West Seattle raised Amanda Knox, who has spent three and a half years in prison, will appear in court during her appeal hearing where she tries to clear her name for the murder of her college roommate, Meredith Kercher. This hearing could become a tipping point in the trial as Monica Napoleoni will appear.

So according to this, the trial starts about about 4am est.

Yes, did not expect it so early--is Italy 5 hours ahead of NY? But why does the news make no mention of Napoleoni???:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

Here is the video but do not know if the embed will show-
guess not, here is link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8527853/Amanda-Knox-back-in-appeal-court.html

 

[SMK]

I wonder what bearing these inmates' letters will actually have? I hope it is not just a gesture, to show that all was covered, and I hope the inmates' testimony will not be absurd.

The court also ruled that five prisoners who have written letters claiming to know who really killed the Briton would be allowed to give evidence.
The existence of these letters has been known since the early days of the trial, but the judge then ruled them as inadmissable.
But on Saturday, the appeal court judge decided he was willing to hear from these five people.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Amanda-Knox-Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Appeal-Inmates-To-Give-Evidence-In-Appeal-Court-Rules/Article/200911315996591?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header_0&lid=ARTICLE_15996591_Amanda_Knox_Meredith_Kercher_Murder_Appeal%3A_Inmates_To_Give_Evidence_In_Appeal%2C_Court_Rules

 

[SMK]

I think TJFMK is over-stating things. I do not think things were nearly so bad as they say, nor that CNN's viewers care so much about Mignini's finer points. But it is interesting to read this impassioned plea:

Open Letter To CNN Head Ken Jautz: Reports As Terrible As Drew Griffin’s Risk Destroying CNNhttp://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

And again the blood is stated as fact:

(40) the fact (as mentioned by me before but not in your programme) that Amanda’s blood was found in the bathroom. Amanda’s blood was on the washbasin faucet, and the mixed blood of Amanda and Meredith was in the washbasin, the bidet, and on the cottonbud box.

And this has always struck me as highly dubious:

(42) the fact that (according to Massei) the nature of the wounds and injuries sustained by Meredith ( who was a fit girl and who had trained in karate) meant that more than one attacker had to be present to inflict those ( knife wounds, strangulation, bruising to her lips and inner thighs) and to subdue her and attempt sexual intercourse.

And the whole thing winds up very arrogantly:

It would be nice to think, when Amanda’s conviction is upheld, that CNN will broadcast a detailed corrective documentary. I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours etc

James Raper

c/o True Justice for Meredith Kercher

 

[SkewedView]

I think TJFMK is over-stating things. I do not think things were nearly so bad as they say, nor that CNN's viewers care so much about Mignini's finer points. But it is interesting to read this impassioned plea:

Open Letter To CNN Head Ken Jautz: Reports As Terrible As Drew Griffin’s Risk Destroying CNNhttp://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

And again the blood is stated as fact:

(40) the fact (as mentioned by me before but not in your programme) that Amanda’s blood was found in the bathroom. Amanda’s blood was on the washbasin faucet, and the mixed blood of Amanda and Meredith was in the washbasin, the bidet, and on the cottonbud box.

And this has always struck me as highly dubious:

(42) the fact that (according to Massei) the nature of the wounds and injuries sustained by Meredith ( who was a fit girl and who had trained in karate) meant that more than one attacker had to be present to inflict those ( knife wounds, strangulation, bruising to her lips and inner thighs) and to subdue her and attempt sexual intercourse.

And the whole thing winds up very arrogantly:

It would be nice to think, when Amanda’s conviction is upheld, that CNN will broadcast a detailed corrective documentary. I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours etc

James Raper

c/o True Justice for Meredith Kercher

Note also that the letter starts out by insulting CNN - what is it with the leaders of the Guilters insulting those that they are theoretically trying to convince? Seems a bit counterproductive to me; but then again, I always felt that the all too common accusations regarding AK supporters being 'dirty old men' or dupes of some vast PR campaign (how rich are AK's parents supposed to be, to buy such influence?), or even better, that all of the pro AK people are just five people using many different names:waitasec:, to have no other affect than to throw all of their surrounding arguments into doubt, given how irrational the above mentioned comments make them sound...

Please note, the above commentary does not apply to the guilters on this board, who behave in an entirely different manner that does them great credit. I just wish that more guilters commenting on articles etc would hold themselves to such standards.

 

[SMK]

Note also that the letter starts out by insulting CNN - what is it with the leaders of the Guilters insulting those that they are theoretically trying to convince? Seems a bit counterproductive to me; but then again, I always felt that the all too common accusations regarding AK supporters being 'dirty old men' or dupes of some vast PR campaign (how rich are AK's parents supposed to be, to buy such influence?), or even better, that all of the pro AK people are just five people using many different names:waitasec:, to have no other affect than to throw all of their surrounding arguments into doubt, given how irrational the above mentioned comments make them sound...

Please note, the above commentary does not apply to the guilters on this board, who behave in an entirely different manner that does them great credit. I just wish that more guilters commenting on articles etc would hold themselves to such standards.

I had thought the exact same thing! To begin by saying "of course everyone knows you are losing viewers by the droves" is insulting and unprofessional and petty. Yes, it casts doubt on all. And then to arrogantly conclude "when her conviction is upheld" rather than IF, as though all that is going on now is nothing; and to sign it "Yours Etc." rather than "Very best regards"---ah well, I always believe as the ancient book of wisdom says, that the humble and modest will see things through to completion...

 

[SkewedView]

1. UNTRUE. They had the same alibi most innocent people have: one another.

2. TRUE. Happy now?

3. TRUE.

4. IRRELEVANT.

5. UNTRUE as to "fair" trial, UNKNOWN as to a conspiracy.

6. UNTRUE IMO.

Everyone agrees as to #2 and #3, so I don't know why you are complaining that nobody will admit any of your points. A full third are universally acknowledged.

But you see, we have not given in to the arguments that 2 & 3 (and 4 for that matter) are sure signs of guilt and evil. Arguing that such things are not of great importance to the question of guilt vs innocence is seen by some as making excuses, and I doubt that will change no matter how many times those issues are hashed out, as the importance and meaning of such things are purely subjective judgment calls.

 

[SkewedView]

I wonder what bearing these inmates' letters will actually have? I hope it is not just a gesture, to show that all was covered, and I hope the inmates' testimony will not be absurd.

The court also ruled that five prisoners who have written letters claiming to know who really killed the Briton would be allowed to give evidence.
The existence of these letters has been known since the early days of the trial, but the judge then ruled them as inadmissable.
But on Saturday, the appeal court judge decided he was willing to hear from these five people.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Amanda-Knox-Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Appeal-Inmates-To-Give-Evidence-In-Appeal-Court-Rules/Article/200911315996591?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header_0&lid=ARTICLE_15996591_Amanda_Knox_Meredith_Kercher_Murder_Appeal%3A_Inmates_To_Give_Evidence_In_Appeal%2C_Court_Rules

Ugh, I'm always leery of jailhouse snitches...sure, they're a useful tool, but it's a tool that is just too easy to abuse, and always seemed to me to be too close to pure hearsay to use in a court of law. Unless multiple snitches are saying essentially the same thing here, I'm not going to give much weight to them, and I doubt the court will either.

 

[SMK]

From a bad Google translation, but it does not look to promising. Franks Sfarzo's idea of Guede or MK's new boyfriend having a drug debt is MUCH more realistic. This does not look good:

From a Google Translatehttp://www.lanazione.it/umbria/cronaca/2011/05/21/509949-processo_meredith_risultati_della_nuova_perizia_entro_giugno.shtml
FOR THE OFFICE OF PROMPT: "MARIO ALESSI GAVE IMPORTANT"

" Mario Alessi gave indications quite important during the testimony given in front of us defenders last year, and now we'll see if he says the same things. "

This was stated by one of the lawyers for Raffaele Sollecito, the lawyer Luca Maori , told reporters after today's hearing of the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Maori said that the statements were videotaped for Alessi by the defense . "We have brought to the attention of the Court - concluded - which now has some interesting ideas to be heard."

The lawyer then spoke of a letter sent to the defense of Alessi would urge "to include certain facts and circumstances" but that lawyers were not able to view.
"Sara 'maybe this is an opportunity to have this important document," concluded Maori.

And the reliability of the assassination of Tommaso Onofri Legal notices the answer : "Mario Alessi trusted? You must tell the Court, not us.''E 'this fact, the comment of the lawyer after the hearing today in the process second-degree murder of Meredith Kercher.

Alessi, who was sentenced to life imprisonment for the kidnapping and murder of little Tommaso Onofri in March 2006 in Casal Baroncolo (Parma), claimed to have learned from Rudy Guede with which he was detained in prison in Viterbo that Sollecito and Amanda Knox Kercher murder are strangers, but made ​​by a friend dell'ivoriano.

Guede (finally sentenced to 16 years for the murder of British student) has however argued that it never did confide to Alessi and not to have spoken with him stories of their proceedings.

The mason had then made ​​a statement to urge that the defenders had lodged.

"THE LETTER AND THE PRISONER 'offensive'. In the words of defender of the family Francesco Maresca Kercher

For the Kercher family lawyer, the lawyer Francesco Maresca , the letter sent by an inmate of the prison of Vercelli, who claims to know Meredith's principal and murderess, is "objectively offensive to the memory of the poor girl."

In the letter it is written that Meredith was killed because she accumulated a huge debt of drugs . "I have nothing to say about this person, added the lawyer - I do not know and I have no interest in knowing."

As for the evidence of Alessi , according to Maresca, and his testimony '"completely useless". The lawyer feels rather 'important' that the expert stated Vecchiotti Carla, "the fact that all the material available to them and 'sufficient for the completion of scientific expertise," even if it defines' duty' the decision of the Court of admission of new texts.