Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

[otto]

If Amanda & Raffaele spend 15 years in jail for Meredith's murder, will they still be book and movie stars ... or will it be a B movie chased by some retirees and bloggers?
Is 15 years enough time for two convicted murderers to reform? In the US, that is not long enough, but by standards in most westernized countries ... without premeditation, it is probably long enough. Rudy only needs 16 years to reform because he admitted some complicity in the murder. How about that.

Looking forward to the appeal results.

 

[SMK]

I doubt it. In the big picture, it's not enough to fill the bowling alley at a Bowling for Amanda fundraiser. The media blitz at the universiy was a bomb, with more empty chairs than anything ... and guest speakers walking out before everyone had spoken. A couple of people have lost their jobs and reputations over this case (Bremner, Frank, that FBI guy that briefly taught in Virginia, ...) and a few others are looking for their recognition during retirement. In reality, Casey Anthony is the Queen of media these days ... people have moved on. Even on this board, there are only a handful of people.

If Knox and Sollecito are unsuccessful in this appeal, I think their fates are sealed - although I suspect they'll be released prior to their full 25 and 26 years simply because they're young and can be rehabilitated. The Supreme Court has already ruled that Rudy did not act alone, and no other suspects have emerged. I doubt the Supreme Court will decide next that Rudy acted alone.

But that's just it, Otto: Justice should not be contingent on media blitz. Yes, Casey Anthony is the Queen of the Media right now, but from the looks of it, she will likely be charged with premeditated murder and given the death penalty. Knox and Sollecito's fate should be in the hands of the objective independent panel. What good did celebrity do Scott Peterson? Dr. Hampakian and his judgement on the DNA are more important, if the panel takes it into consideration. I do not think Knox and Sollecito getting 15 years if they are innocent will be justice. If they are innocent they ought to be freed. If not, 15 years, or life, what does it matter?

 

[Allusonz]

Under disclosure, the prosecution released evidence to all parties - including Raffaele, Amanda, Patrick and Meredith's lawyers. Meredith's lawyer also attended the trial, so the information that was available to Mr Kercher exceeded what he was told by the prosecutor.

Given recent developments, it appears that proprietary files were initially withheld, but that they have been made available to the Rome experts. Now that all the files are available for examination by independent experts, will they confirm the original test results? If they are proprietary files, they will not be released to any of the lawyers.

In the Nature magazine that I've referenced a couple of times, it is noted that certain files are withheld for proprietary reasons in all labs - even in the US. Hendry (is he one of the neo-experts) might be the guy that suggested that no files in DNA testing are withheld for any reason. That simply isn't true.

I'll look for the link ... about proprietary files.

You don''t have to it is on the disclosure form and it is not proprietary

 

[Allusonz]

If Amanda & Raffaele spend 15 years in jail for Meredith's murder, will they still be book and movie stars ... or will it be a B movie chased by some retirees and bloggers?
Is 15 years enough time for two convicted murderers to reform? In the US, that is not long enough, but by standards in most westernized countries ... without premeditation, it is probably long enough. Rudy only needs 16 years to reform because he admitted some complicity in the murder. How about that.

Looking forward to the appeal results.

Just maybe they are not guilty. So far to date the prosecution has in MO not presented a strong enough case

 

[Allusonz]

Do you really think that the father of the victim has been misinformed, and we know better?
... keeping in mind that he's a freelance news reporter for a UK newspaper.

I said Otto that he is not more informed. I am certain that the defense is just as informed

 

[Allusonz]

Here it is ...

Or was Hendry the traffic accident expert who was also secretly an expert in determining how old Italian window glass was broken based on glass shards?

This is the same article you have posted on LCN DNA many times that I have read and it even has information from Dr. Hampikian

 

[Allusonz]

I have drawn a comparison between Amanda & Raffaele and other couples that met, became instantly intense and who committed murder. Other have as well. I do not see a close similarity between Knox and Anthony, although the points made by RR473 appear to be astute. I am of the opinion that Amanda & Raffaele, as a drugged (they admitted to this) couple, crossed some boundaries too quickly and crossed other boundaries they should have avoided.

I don't think that drawing comparisons to similar cases undermines an argument.

You are not getting the point. How many cases are said by the prosecution to be a satanic drug fueled sex orgy? You have brought up many other cases which posters have stated are not similar which include CA SP BC and the dynamics are not even close

Now you have him stating that she orchestrated it from another room after first stating that she was the one that plunged the knife

 

[Allusonz]

I haven't researched this case in depth but I see a number of similarities between this case and the case of Casey Anthony.

.

How remiss in my I will blame extreme exhaution in not giving you a proper welcome

:welcome:

 

[Allusonz]

Do you really think that the father of the victim has been misinformed, and we know better?
... keeping in mind that he's a freelance news reporter for a UK newspaper.

I truly could care less if he was the Queen of England. That is her speciality. It does not make them specialists in many other fields. The information has for the most part still come from other individuals. What he chooses to believe are different not more informed

 

[SMK]

Amanda Knox Family Sees Hopeful Signs in Italian Murder Appeal
PERUGIA, Italy June 1, 2011
The family of Amanda Knox, sentenced to 26 years in an Italian prison, sees glimmers of hope as small victories in her appeal seem to cast doubt on the guilty verdict against her.

After nearly four years, three birthdays, four Christmases and one college graduation have passed with Knox, now 23, living in a grim Italian prison cell. Her family now is cautiously optimistic that the appeal of her murder conviction will go her way.http://abcnews.go.com/2020/amanda-knox-family-sees-glimmers-hope/story?id=13590719

Knox family sees new hope for reversal
Published: June 1, 2011 at 11:51 AM
PERUGIA, Italy, June 1 (UPI) -- American student Amanda Knox's family is gaining hope that Italian courts will clear her of killing her roommate, her father says.

"It really appears [the judge] wants to get to the truth. And the truth is really going to set her free,"


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/06/01/Knox-family-sees-new-hope-for-reversal/UPI-26541306943517/#ixzz1O2vVrHLq

 

[Monzoo]

I haven't researched this case in depth but I see a number of similarities between this case and the case of Casey Anthony.

In both cases the defendants have changed their story numerous times, thrown innocent people under the bus, taken the investigation as a joke and both have serious lack of remorse.

Ok these symptoms are no evidence of crime but are telling a lot.

Where do you get the impression that they changed their stories numerous times? The only time I am aware of is during the interrogations on the evening of November 5. Before that night, RS and AK both said that they had spent the entire evening at RS' apartment.

During his interrogation on the 5th, RS changed his story to say that he couldn't be certain that AK hadn't left after he had gone to sleep. That same evening, AK signed two statements (Dowload available here)

Relevant info from first statement:

I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately, therefore I went out telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. I wish to state first that in the afternoon I had smoked a joint with Raffaele, therefore I felt confused because I do not usually make use of narcotics nor harder drugs. -------------------------------------------------------
I met Patrick soon after at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana and we went home. I do not remember if Meredith was already there or if she came later. I find it difficult to remember those moments but Patrick had sex with Meredith with whom he was infatuated but I do not remember well if Meredith had been threatened before. I vaguely remember that he killed her.

Relevent info from second statement:

I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi where I work periodically. I met him in the evening of November 1st 2007, after sending him a reply message saying “I will see you”. We met soon after at about 21.00 at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana. We went to my apartment in Via della Pergola n. 7. I do not clearly remember if Meredith was already at home or if she came later, what I can say is that Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith’s room, while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.

Both RS and AK both imediately changed their story back to being at RS' apartement all evening. (Link to AK's Nov.6 letter)

On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work.

Now I remember to have also replied with the message: "See you later. Have a good evening!" and this for me does not mean that I wanted to meet him immediately. In particular because I said: "Good evening!" What happened after I know does not match up with what Raffaele was saying, but this is what I remember. I told Raffaele that I didn't have to work and that I could remain at home for the evening. After that I believe we relaxed in his room together, perhaps I checked my email. Perhaps I read or studied or perhaps I made love to Raffaele. In fact, I think I did make love with him.

In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly. I understand that the police are under a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I received.


However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked.

But the truth is, I am unsure about the truth and here's why:

1. The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.

2. My boyfriend has claimed that I have said things that I know are not true. I KNOW I told him I didn't have to work that night. I remember that moment very clearly. I also NEVER asked him to lie for me. This is absolutely a lie. What I don't understand is why Raffaele, who has always been so caring and gentle with me, would lie about this. What does he have to hide? I don't think he killed Meredith, but I do think he is scared, like me. He walked into a situation that he has never had to be in, and perhaps he is trying to find a way out by disassociating himself with me.

Do you have any evidence that they change their stories at any other time, or are you basing your opinion merely on what someone else wrote? You may need to do a little more reseach before you claim that this case has parallels to Casey Anthony.

Edited to add: If you look at the downloaded statements, you will see the originals are writtn in Italian "legalese." AK had been in Italy less that two month at that point and was far from fluent. You might also notice that they both mistranslate her text message to PL. Her Nov. 6 note, which was handwritten in English, has the correct message.

 

[Nova]

Otto, I did just Google "thrill-kill US teens" and a bunch of stories came up. But I do not see Knox and Sollecito as being alienated teens - they were successful students in their 20s, enjoying romance. OK, just look at how DIFFERENT these creepy kids are from Knox and Sollecito....

That was very gracious of you to oblige otto, SMK, but he knows internet protocol perfectly well: if he wants to prove something with a source, it is HIS responsibility to provide a link.

Playing games and hinting at possible google searches is not only childish, but a way of denying that whatever you find is the source he actually meant. Personally, I'm not going there.

If otto wants to argue that AK and RS are reminiscent of some "thrill-kill" couple, then he needs to make the case himself. And he needs to account for time, because I've never heard of a couple who began a murder spree after knowing one another for only six days, much less included a third party they didn't know at all.

 

[Nova]

SMK, IIRC, Hellman has decided to first review the two pieces of DNA evidence and if those prove to be worthless he will open up other aspects of the evidence. In the wake of Stefanoni's foot-dragging re the raw data he has agreed to hear some of the inmate testimony. Someone on here, Otto possibly, made the claim that only the two pieces of DNA evidence will be reviewed and that's it. This may be what has you confused, and so I wouldn't say that those things are being ignored, just that it isn't the time yet. Apologies if it wasn't Otto who made that claim.

Thank you, Mal. This has been a matter of much confusion here and not just to SMK. (And in fairness to otto or whoever first posted that only the DNA would be considered, there has been confusion all around. I don't think any one poster was the cause.)

 

[Nova]

I haven't researched this case in depth but I see a number of similarities between this case and the case of Casey Anthony.

In both cases the defendants have changed their story numerous times, thrown innocent people under the bus, taken the investigation as a joke and both have serious lack of remorse.

Ok these symptoms are no evidence of crime but are telling a lot.

Don't believe everything you read.

1. The defendants in the Kercher murder haven't changed their story "numerous times." On one night, false statements were coerced from two of the defendants. They began to recant almost immediately and have stuck to the same story since a week or two after the false statements were fully recanted.

2. The innocent person (not people) "thrown under the bus" was suggested by LE, not the defendants.

3. Some posters don't like some of the outfits worn by one of the defendants. But there's NO EVIDENCE she or any other defendant took the investigation as a joke.

4. Why would innocent people show remorse? If you are saying the defendants didn't seem to grieve properly, there's a big difference between grieving for a friend you'd known for a month and for your dead child.

No, these items don't prove guilt, particularly because they aren't even true.

 

[Nova]

How is citing a May 21, 2011 news article using the family for individual purposes?

I'm viewing this as an extremely desperate attempt to exclude all discussion about the victim and her family. Her father is her voice. He published an article last week. For me, it raises points that I had not previously considered, or been aware of. Why should his opinion not be discussed?

I find it interesting to consider the validity of DNA collection after 6 weeks in light of other cases where valid DNA was collected long after the murder.

In terms of alibis, I remember that Amanda and Raffaele gave different stories about how they got from the cottage to his apartment in the afternoon before the murder. I think Amanda included a walk along the movie theatre route - a much longer walk than claimed by Raffaele, who said they walked directly to his apartment. That might be included as 2 of the alibis. Two more would be dinner & a movie. How do we get to 9 alibis? Is the point about being in the square when Patrick called but claiming to be at Raffaele's at the time another 2 alibis? I guess we could add in Amanda's claim that she was in the cottage with her fingers in her ears. That makes 7. If we add Raffaele saying that Amanda may not have been at the apartment the entire night ... that makes 8 ... need one more.

You must be kidding.

Having different recollections about how they got to RS' apartment hours before the murder counts as two different alibis? Then you have rendered Mr. Kercher's remarks meaningless.

 

[Nova]

You have tried to derail this thread by comparing AK from KH, CA, to thrill killers that you suggest we ourselves look up the case you are referring to by googling it. This continues to undermine your arguments

Worth repeating.

I swear the pro-guilt people are writing a book on logical fallacies! Now we have false analogies to add to the recent appeals to unqualified authorities.

 

[Nova]

Here it is ...

Or was Hendry the traffic accident expert who was also secretly an expert in determining how old Italian window glass was broken based on glass shards?

Thank you for the cite, otto. As it points out, U.S. courts are waking up to the unreliability of "low copy" DNA results and beginning to refuse to admit them as evidence. Apparently, it's time Italian courts did the same.

 

[Nova]

I truly could care less if he was the Queen of England. That is her speciality. It does not make them specialists in many other fields. The information has for the most part still come from other individuals. What he chooses to believe are different not more informed

I don't think it's disrespectful to say that Mr. Kercher may have considerable bias in this case. In fact, I EXPECT a loving father of a murder victim to be biased, just as I expect the parents of the defendants to be.

 

[SMK]

That was very gracious of you to oblige otto, SMK, but he knows internet protocol perfectly well: if he wants to prove something with a source, it is HIS responsibility to provide a link.

Playing games and hinting at possible google searches is not only childish, but a way of denying that whatever you find is the source he actually meant. Personally, I'm not going there.

If otto wants to argue that AK and RS are reminiscent of some "thrill-kill" couple, then he needs to make the case himself. And he needs to account for time, because I've never heard of a couple who began a murder spree after knowing one another for only six days, much less included a third party they didn't know at all.

...............you mean I am a real sucker, don't ye, Nova? :doh:

 

[Nova]

...............you mean I am a real sucker, don't ye, Nova? :doh:

No, I meant you are a kind and gracious person.

So is otto, for that matter, but I think it's a dangerous precedent to expect other posters to "guess" at how one is supporting one's argument.