Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #14

[dgfred]

Thanks for this. So basically saying Mignini made the choice to focus on AK and RS before doing the broader forensic research....

Like they were not acting, doing or saying suspicious things? Please. :innocent:

All someone has to do is close their eyes and think what they would have done as a policeman or investigator looking at the scene.

1- we have two individuals (one a person that lives there)at the crime scene with a mop nearby (whether important or not). They are worried about blood 'now', even tho it had been noticed much earlier in the day. They originally called about the break-in and now can not decide if Meredith's door being locked is normal or not.
2- break-in without anything stolen and NO evidence of anyone climbing the wall. Glass is noticed ON TOP of clothes and computer. Since more than one person claimed this... it shouldn't even be in doubt but I understand why this is such a problem for the defenses and supporters.
3- then the 'focus' had to deal with the distorted statements, 'rubbish', and outright lies shortly thereafter (in the next days).
4- AK places herself at the scene immediately upon being notified that RS was no longer supporting her alibi.

Yeah, looks like his focus was pretty much on the mark. They deserved it.

 

[SMK]

Like they were not acting, doing or saying suspicious things? Please. :innocent:

All someone has to do is close their eyes and think what they would have done as a policeman or investigator looking at the scene.

1- we have two individuals (one a person that lives there)at the crime scene with a mop nearby (whether important or not). They are worried about blood 'now', even tho it had been noticed much earlier in the day. They originally called about the break-in and now can not decide if Meredith's door being locked is normal or not.
2- break-in without anything stolen and NO evidence of anyone climbing the wall. Glass is noticed ON TOP of clothes and computer. Since more than one person claimed this... it shouldn't even be in doubt but I understand why this is such a problem for the defenses and supporters.
3- then the 'focus' had to deal with the distorted statements, 'rubbish', and outright lies shortly thereafter (in the next days).
4- AK places herself at the scene immediately upon being notified that RS was no longer supporting her alibi.

Yeah, looks like his focus was pretty much on the mark. They deserved it.

I agree that originally it made a certain amount of sense to focus on AK and RS. I have no doubt that Mignini and Napoleani ( ?) had a "natural" reaction to Amanda as suspicious because of her Seattle neo-hippie presentation, as opposed to Filomina. But when PL was alibied out, and Guede factored in, there should have been stern pause. There was a YouTube of Mignini back in 2008 - wish I could find it - where he is being interviewed about the low copy number by an Italian and I think an American journalist. It is very eerie, the skyline of Perugia is in the background, and the sky is very dark, ominous and cloudy. He has his hands in his coat pockets, and is really resigned, like a father who knows he has caught his kid at something. It made a singular impression on me.

 

[dgfred]

But there were other factors along the way to add on:

Lack of memory by the accused
Computer and phone records showing inconsistancies
dna evidence of AKs and Meredith's mixed
dna evidence (although disputed) of RS on the bra clasp
dna evidence (although disputed) of AK and Meredith on the knife
luminol BARE footprints in the hallway attributed to AK and RS
Bare half footprint attributed to RS on the bathmat
More unreasonable statements from AK and from RS no further statements
etc, etc

 

[SMK]

But there were other factors along the way to add on:

Lack of memory by the accused
Computer and phone records showing inconsistancies
dna evidence of AKs and Meredith's mixed
dna evidence (although disputed) of RS on the bra clasp
dna evidence (although disputed) of AK and Meredith on the knife
luminol BARE footprints in the hallway attributed to AK and RS
Bare half footprint attributed to RS on the bathmat
More unreasonable statements from AK and from RS no further statements
etc, etc

I know. These all were shot down by Fisher and Hendry, and now they just do not ring true for me anymore.

 

[Nova]

I'm finding that I'm wasting a lot of time pulling your words out of my mouth.
Please stop putting words in my mouth ... they do not fit.
Please go back and reread my post.
Those comments are not mine.
They are in fact posts by other people on this forum regarding people that disagree with jury decisions or believe that forum discussions are an accurate reflection of what the general population thinks about jury decisions.

You are being disingenuous, otto, and I doubt anyone is fooled.

YOU brought those quotes into this thread. Therefore YOU implied they were of some relevance in this discussion. YOU chose only quotes which refer to posters who question the infallibility of LE. YOU chose only quotes which use derogatory language to describe those who question LE.

SO THE ONLY RATIONAL CONCLUSION is that YOU are none too slyly attempting to apply those insults to those of us who question the investigation and prosecution in Perugia.

 

[Nova]

The California judge screwed up ... plain and simple ... a screw up like the many cases referenced by Malkmus.

Link? Explication, at least? How about a date? Do you mean in 1977 or during the recent extradition process?

Don't get me wrong: I'm not claiming mistakes aren't made out here in the Golden State. But if you are going to allude to one, the least you can do is explain what you mean.

 

[Nova]

I understand that there are a lot of problems with the justice system in the US (that much is obvious from reading this thread), and that many people believe that because they read about crime and justice they are better equipped to determine guilt or innocence than those that specialize and practice in the field (that is obvious from the level of skepticism in the US justice system). Since the murder of Meredith Kercher happened in Italy with a justice system completely unlike the US system and involving people born in four different countries, I fail to see how problems in the US play a part.

My experience with the justice system is that those that practice in the field always do their best to do the right thing. Mistakes happen, but that is rare and not the norm. Mistakes are not intentional, and no one really believes that it is more fun to convict the innocent.

The primary reason that errors in U.S. trials have been brought up here is that we Americans have been accused of condescending to the Italian justice system merely because it is different in some ways than ours. Our point has been that we are well aware mistakes are made in American courts, so there is no condescension is arguing that one was made in Perugia.

For the record, I think you're probably right that most people involved in judicial systems (here and in Italy) do their best. And like most people they are inclined toward hubris, laziness, carelessness and a host of (mostly unconscious) prejudices.

 

[SMK]

The primary reason that errors in U.S. trials have been brought up here is that we Americans have been accused of condescending to the Italian justice system merely because it is different in some ways than ours. Our point has been that we are well aware mistakes are made in American courts, so there is no condescension is arguing that one was made in Perugia.

For the record, I think you're probably right that most people involved in judicial systems (here and in Italy) do their best. And like most people they are inclined toward hubris, laziness, carelessness and a host of (mostly unconscious) prejudices.

Yes, agreed - and I for one have NEVER believed Knox was in any way a victim of Italy or Italian jurisprudence. Mignini could exist in Seattle or New York or California. If anything, the US courts are more corrupt. As I have told Otto repeatedly, the evidence was shot full of holes for me by Hendry and Fisher, and the air went out of the raft. Nothing about Italy at all. Knox would have received a far longer sentence here. If she and Sollecito are innocent - and I believe so, with some tentative caution - then I would be happy to see the convictions overturned. Nothing more than that.....

 

[Nova]

Yes, agreed - and I for one have NEVER believed Knox was in any way a victim of Italy or Italian jurisprudence. Mignini could exist in Seattle or New York or California. If anything, the US courts are more corrupt. As I have told Otto repeatedly, the evidence was shot full of holes for me by Hendry and Fisher, and the air went out of the raft. Nothing about Italy at all. Knox would have received a far longer sentence here. If she and Sollecito are innocent - and I believe so, with some tentative caution - then I would be happy to see the convictions overturned. Nothing more than that.....

This case has not cast Perguian justice in the best light, SMK. But allowing for minor differences in the two systems, I agree that any of the Perugia errors could have happened in at least some jurisdictions in the U.S.

It's horrifying to realize that the quality of justice available to one may depend largely on how much money the jurisdiction in question is willing to spend on forensics and the like, but I'm afraid it's true the world over.

 

[SMK]

This case has not cast Perguian justice in the best light, SMK. But allowing for minor differences in the two systems, I agree that any of the Perugia errors could have happened in at least some jurisdictions in the U.S.

It's horrifying to realize that the quality of justice available to one may depend largely on how much money the jurisdiction in question is willing to spend on forensics and the like, but I'm afraid it's true the world over.

I know, and it is very troubling indeed.

 

[SkewedView]

You know, I'm leaning towards Massai being more at fault for this mess than Mignini - after all, Mignini presented his case to the best of his ability, and did a good job considering how badly ILE & company messed up the investigation. In a fair trial, the defense is allowed experts to challenge the claims made by the Prosecution's witnesses, yet time and again, AK & RS's team was denied that equal footing. The Massai Report reveals many other instances of gross bias, including twisting or disregarding facts to reach a guilty verdict. None of that is Mignini's fault, unless the conspiracy theorists are correct and he had Massai in his pocket (doubtful).

Mind you, Mignini did allow for a sloppy, overly narrow investigation in the beginning, but that would have been to the advantage of the defense in a fair trial, as they would have been able to use that tunnel-vision to cast doubt on the whole investigation. Alas, Massai didn't want to hear about it - no doubt because he prefers the pre-1992 reforms way of running a trial (Inquisitorial, which allowed little to no opportunity for defense).

 

[Nova]

You know, I'm leaning towards Massai being more at fault for this mess than Mignini - after all, Mignini presented his case to the best of his ability, and did a good job considering how badly ILE & company messed up the investigation. In a fair trial, the defense is allowed experts to challenge the claims made by the Prosecution's witnesses, yet time and again, AK & RS's team was denied that equal footing. The Massai Report reveals many other instances of gross bias, including twisting or disregarding facts to reach a guilty verdict. None of that is Mignini's fault, unless the conspiracy theorists are correct and he had Massai in his pocket (doubtful).

Mind you, Mignini did allow for a sloppy, overly narrow investigation in the beginning, but that would have been to the advantage of the defense in a fair trial, as they would have been able to use that tunnel-vision to cast doubt on the whole investigation. Alas, Massai didn't want to hear about it - no doubt because he prefers the pre-1992 reforms way of running a trial (Inquisitorial, which allowed little to no opportunity for defense).

I think it's only right that you point out Mignini isn't the Great Satan here. But between Mignini and Massei, it's rather a toss up, in my view.

The trial of AK (and RS, but particularly AK) in the media started well before Massei began to preside over a formal trial. So that's on Mignini, unless there is yet more I don't understand about Italian jurisprudence (entirely possible).

 

[SMK]

I think it's only right that you point out Mignini isn't the Great Satan here. But between Mignini and Massei, it's rather a toss up, in my view.

The trial of AK (and RS, but particularly AK) in the media started well before Massei began to preside over a formal trial. So that's on Mignini, unless there is yet more I don't understand about Italian jurisprudence (entirely possible).

I believe it was Napoleani ( hope I have the name right) who also took an intense disliking to AK and perhaps influenced Mignini (this is what I have read) as well.

 

[wasnt_me]

I had wondered this too, will try and search.

If we can't find one, then maybe we are allowed to make one? I wasnt sure because it's not really "in the news."

 

[wasnt_me]

After a post implying that we who disagree with you are "not of sound mind" or "hearing voices" or just plain "weird," I trust we will hear no more whining from you because people refer to you as "pro-guilt" or some other harmless shorthand.

I thought that it had been asserted many times from Otto that if he wanted to read other messageboards, he'd go there. So why are you having to reply to a post he made where he quoted other messageboards? If you or any of us wanted to read other messageboards, we'd go there, right? Isn't that what he said? Just wondering.

 

[wasnt_me]

BBM: You have no way of knowing that. You might as well tell us the Virgin Mary cures baldness, since there's no way to prove that either.

Does it? My hair is thinning. I'll try anything!

 

[wasnt_me]

Well, Otto, Nova said the implication was there, by posting them. I assumed you were implying that, too. Why else post it? As I said, I question myself constantly , always wondering if I am tipping too far in one direction ( I do this with all my general opinions in life) but the posters you quoted were harsh. I agree with Nova as per Scott Peterson, Ramseys, possibly Noura, and Casey Anthony: all guilty. The Knox case is different, and yes, because I read Fisher and Hendry.....:sigh:

I'm unsure why you are questioning yourself. Don't let anyone put you in that position.

 

[SkewedView]

I still believe that this case and the way that it has been handled closely resembles the mess surrounding the Stephanie Crowe murder.

Here's some good reference links and some telling passages from them:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040711/news_1c11caloca.html

The 12-year-old girl was stabbed to death in her Escondido bedroom in January of 1998. Police arrested three teens, including her brother, after two of them confessed.

But on the eve of trial, in a plot twist straight out of a John Grisham novel, lab tests found drops of Stephanie's blood on a shirt worn by a mentally ill transient roaming the Crowe neighborhood the night of the slaying.

By the time the case landed in Caloca's lap, in February of 2000, it was a moldering mess. The charges against the teens had been dismissed. The transient, Richard Tuite, was in prison on an unrelated burglary conviction. Various authorities were facing lawsuits.

Nobody would have blamed Caloca if he had shoved the scandal into a corner, labeled it an unsolvable
mystery, and walked away.

He didn't do that. He investigated and decided the original case against the teens was wrong, and that Tuite was the killer. He convinced the state attorney general to file charges.

On May 26, a jury convicted Tuite of voluntary manslaughter. He is scheduled to be sentenced on July 29.

All that took four years and a thick skin. Caloca said some local prosecutors, still convinced the teens were guilty, stonewalled requests for assistance. He heard they were calling him an "out of control" cop.

A judge scolded him privately, Caloca said, and asked whether investigating the case was worth all the trouble. Other cops he thought were his friends stopped talking to him.

It was, he said he soon realized, a wounded and embarrassed judicial system trying to protect itself.

One of the first things he did was watch videotapes of the interrogations. Escondido detectives had questioned Michael, then 14, for about 10 hours over two days. By the time they were done, Michael said he'd killed his sister in a jealous rage.

Detectives questioned 15-year-old Treadway for about 18 hours, also over two days, and at the end he explained in considerable detail how the three planned and carried out the murder.

Caloca, 51, has by his estimation worked hundreds of homicides. He's done hundreds of interrogations. Earlier in his career, he investigated child abuse, and he knew from experience that "sometimes kids tell you things just to please you."

He said he was a few hours into the tapes when "I realized something was wrong. Almost everything you're trained not to do was being done in these interviews."

He saw threats and promises of leniency, which a judge had cited as illegally coercive tactics in suppressing the bulk of the confessions, back when the teens were still facing trial.

"I'm not a liberal," Caloca said. "I'm not a member of the ACLU. I've done my share of interviews, and I've had to be aggressive with suspects. But I do know there are limits."

Caloca said it's also important for investigators to match a suspect's story with the evidence.

When he tried to do that to Treadway's tale, he said, the whole thing fell apart. The time of death, the eight-mile walk in the dark on the night before final exams, the passing around of the knife after the killing – none of it fit the facts, he said.

Escondido detectives "were working under good intentions initially," he said. But he thinks a lack of experience and tunnel vision caused them to disregard Tuite too quickly and go down the wrong path.

In various court proceedings over the years, the detectives have defended their actions as fair and reasonable. They are declining to comment in the media now because of a civil lawsuit filed against them by the Crowe, Treadway and Houser families.

As Caloca sifted through crime-scene reconstructions, knife comparisons and blood-stain work, he said he also was disturbed by what he saw as attempts by police, prosecutors and consultants to come up with evidence that would fit their theory of the crime, instead of letting the evidence shape their theory.

He eventually compiled a 300-page report that identified "speculations, misjudgments and inconclusive evidence" used in the case against the teens.

"I was in shock," he said. "I lost a lot of sleep because everything I'd been taught since my first day as a cop had been turned upside down. Right and wrong had been turned upside down."

Crap, having trouble finding the really detailed articles on this, they're probably archived by now. For the moment, I will mention that the original lead detective focused on Stephanie's brother because he thought the boy's reaction to her death was inappropriate and suspicious, and then when he found out that the brother and his friends were into Dungeons & Dragons (which he called violent and disturbing), he and the prosecutor were sure that they had their killers. No forensic evidence had been returned at the time. Also of note, LE recovered a knife from the room of one of the boys and called it the murder weapon, even though it didn't match Stephanie's wounds, and that the LEA involved had little experience with murders at the time. I also find it telling that the original LE and Prosecutors involved still think that the boys were involved, despite all evidence and common sense (not to mention common decency, they torture that poor girl's family with that obstinacy and continued threat of malicious prosecution) to the contrary.


Please check this out and tell me what y'all think...and if you run across the articles that give the heavy detail, please link them for me!

 

[SMK]

I'm unsure why you are questioning yourself. Don't let anyone put you in that position.

Thanks. Just one of those "self-questioners". :crazy:

 

[SMK]

I still believe that this case and the way that it has been handled closely resembles the mess surrounding the Stephanie Crowe murder.

Here's some good reference links and some telling passages from them:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040711/news_1c11caloca.html







Crap, having trouble finding the really detailed articles on this, they're probably archived by now. For the moment, I will mention that the original lead detective focused on Stephanie's brother because he thought the boy's reaction to her death was inappropriate and suspicious, and then when he found out that the brother and his friends were into Dungeons & Dragons (which he called violent and disturbing), he and the prosecutor were sure that they had their killers. No forensic evidence had been returned at the time. Also of note, LE recovered a knife from the room of one of the boys and called it the murder weapon, even though it didn't match Stephanie's wounds, and that the LEA involved had little experience with murders at the time. I also find it telling that the original LE and Prosecutors involved still think that the boys were involved, despite all evidence and common sense (not to mention common decency, they torture that poor girl's family with that obstinacy and continued threat of malicious prosecution) to the contrary.


Please check this out and tell me what y'all think...and if you run across the articles that give the heavy detail, please link them for me!

Wow! THANKS FOR THIS. I had forgotten all about this case, but now I remember, I saw a long documentary about it on a cable station. Yes, they were SURE the brother did it, and he even confessed to it. (Knox) But in the end, it was the transient. (Guede) The murder weapon did not match, just as in the Kercher murder. And the inappropriateness of the brothers, the Dungeons and Dragons game, same said of Knox and Sollectio. The refusal of police and prosecution to recant. Yes, it is an echo of this case, the two are one and the same.

And this is echoes Bruce Fisher, Hendry, Dr. Hampakian words:

As Caloca sifted through crime-scene reconstructions, knife comparisons and blood-stain work, he said he also was disturbed by what he saw as attempts by police, prosecutors and consultants to come up with evidence that would fit their theory of the crime, instead of letting the evidence shape their theory.

He eventually compiled a 300-page report that identified "speculations, misjudgments and inconclusive evidence" used in the case against the teens.

"I was in shock," he said. "I lost a lot of sleep because everything I'd been taught since my first day as a cop had been turned upside down. Right and wrong had been turned upside down."