Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #14

[wasnt_me]

Thank you. I remain amazed that this scene--the lynchpin of ILE's case--was neither preserved properly nor subjected to a formal forensic analysis.

As far as I can tell, no forensic analysis was done of the glass fragments and where they landed. Nobody even took pictures of what, if anything, was underneath the tossed clothes.

If the appellate court accepts the trial court's reliance on witness memory and nothing else to deem the break-in "staged," then I don't won't hold out any hope for justice in Italy.

FR shouldn't have been allowed in the room. I'm still trying to figure out, if there was "SO MUCH" concern for MK's locked door, why was FR in her room? Apparently, the first thing she was worried about was her stuff, not where MK was and not why was MK's door locked.

I say this because, according to reports, once MK's door was broken down, everyone was ushered straight out of the house. So FR had no time to go to her room once the body was discovered.

Do we know how long it was between when FR got there and when they finally decided to focus on Mk's door? Because that would be pertinent as to how much rifling FR did before they had to leave the house.

Just for fodder, I'd like FR's phone records, so I can know how many times SHE tried to reach MK. If it wasn't that much, then it could be used as evidence in AK's favor. Why should AK have more urgency to reach MK than FR would? I guess we could know by the calls to the italian and english phones. I have to go back and see if they list calls from FR or not.

Not blaming FR, but her actions in comparision to AK's should set a standard of what's reasonable behavior for the roommates.

 

[wasnt_me]

Except for the issue of staging, you can't possibly think the Jackson murder is in any way comparable to the Perugia murder. So I don't know what are "the many similarities" of which you speak.

Frankly, I'm not convinced Noura is guilty, but then I only watched the single one-hour program last night and read the transcript in your link.

But Noura's mother had considerable control over Noura (via the purse strings) and was demanding that Noura take responsibility for her own life. That is a traditional point of friction between parent and child. There is no equivalent motive for AK or RS to kill MK, much less for them to enter into a conspiracy with RG.

***

As for the supposedly staged break in, the Jackson case would only be comparable to Perugia if Filomena had left her bedroom door locked from the outside. She did not. In the Jackson case, the garage doors were supposedly locked, so gaining entry to the garage would not admit an intruder into the house. Such was not the case in Perugia.

the murderer put a basket on the mom's head.

Noura told the neighbors a burglar was there, but then she ran ahead of the neighbor with a gun to go into the house. She also told the 9-11 people that no one had been shot, and no one was sure how she knew that without examining the body.

I was on the fence about Noura, but I think she did it.

I noticed, but they didnt say this in the 48 hours piece, it seemed that she was wearing a tank top when she went to walgreens, but when she reported the murder, she had on a gray sweat shirt. She definately had on different clothes than her friends remembered seeing her in at the party. If anyone has a chance to look at that walgreen's tape, let me know if i saw it right, because it was grey, not color.

Ak's clothes, on the other hand, were on her bed, unstained. She accused of a wild, crazy sex game AND arguing with MK over money and hygeine at the same time. Noura wasn't accused of running a sex game on her mom, even though there was also unknown female DNA in her mom's bed and a condom wrapper found under the bed, or something like that.

 

[wasnt_me]

As I understand it, all of Italy got to watch the techs pass around the bra clasp and then put it back on the floor for a photograph. And yet that same bra clasp was accepted as viable evidence during the trial.

So if millions of viewers don't make a difference, I don't know what one defense rep can do.

Dude, I'd go testify to that if the big, bad press machine would pay my ticket to italy.

 

[wasnt_me]

Well, of course they haven't turned on one another because the bond between them is so powerful. Apparently more powerful than any such bond in criminal history. (Even Dr. Crippen's paramour quickly crumbled and testified against him once they were caught. I mention this because along with Jack the Ripper, Crippen & Co. seem the beginning of modern true crime literature and cases.)

But like so much of the supposed "evidence" against AK and RS, the fact that they have never turned on one another is turned around and put forth as evidence against them: an argument that only makes sense if one starts from the assumption that AK and RS conspired with RG to kill MK.

But it still doesnt make sense because RG, who has the least reason of all not to do it, doesn't turn on them either. He won't place AK inside the house, and I don't think he put the weapon in RS's hand. Tell me if I'm mistaken. So now in a trio, why is it that none will turn? Why don't the lovers blame it all on RG? Why, when your life is on the line and you see the evidence against him, don't you stack it higher? I mean this is the same woman who supposedly purposely lied on PL. So why not turn around a lie on RG to make herself look better?

He got his sentence reduced because they didn't think he wielded the knife. Why couldn't see have concocted some story that proved he did wield the knife and she was the one who tried to stop MK's bleeding?

 

[wasnt_me]

SMK, the "lightbulb moment" for me while watching the Jackson program was when one of the detective said words to the effect, "We waited awhile, but no other viable suspect presented itself." The implication NOT being, "We should work harder," but "nobody jumped up and confessed," so Noura must have done it.

But despite my misgivings, there is considerably more evidence against NJ than there is against AK. The surveillance tapes showing Noura buying medical supplies at 4 a.m. -- and the fact that Noura apparently failed to mention that trip to the store -- is very troubling. The flurry of cell phone calls up to 1 am and then beginning again at 3 am really has no equivalent in AK and RS turning off their phones for the night.

Of course, we heard little from the defense on the show. If we heard more, we might have very different impressions of the Jackson case.

Is there a thread for this case? I looked for one the first time 48 hours aired the case, but I don't think I found one. I'd be up for talking about it more if there is.

 

[wasnt_me]

A websleuthing poll about AK and RS:

Do you think Amanda Knox is GUILTY? **LIST ONLY NO DISCUSSION** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[SMK]

SMK, the "lightbulb moment" for me while watching the Jackson program was when one of the detective said words to the effect, "We waited awhile, but no other viable suspect presented itself." The implication NOT being, "We should work harder," but "nobody jumped up and confessed," so Noura must have done it.

But despite my misgivings, there is considerably more evidence against NJ than there is against AK. The surveillance tapes showing Noura buying medical supplies at 4 a.m. -- and the fact that Noura apparently failed to mention that trip to the store -- is very troubling. The flurry of cell phone calls up to 1 am and then beginning again at 3 am really has no equivalent in AK and RS turning off their phones for the night.

Of course, we heard little from the defense on the show. If we heard more, we might have very different impressions of the Jackson case.

I agree, Nova. While it is upsetting that the police seemed to focus on Noura because she was the easiest to go after, there still are things which point to Noura's guilt which have no equivalent, as you say, in Knox. Yes, the Walgreen's trip to get hydrogen peroxide and bandages looks damning. But what REALLY made me think Noura was involved, was that the murder occurred near 1 AM. She claims she was out all night. But a friend says, at one am he gets a ring from her house. then it stops, and he quickly gets a ring from her cell. Like she thought, "Whoops, I am not supposed to be home, better switch to the cell." (this is what the Detective pointed out in the article). ...... If Knox had something like THAT, something which truly pointed to a blatant lie, something which could not be refuted, I would be far more suspicious of her....so that's why I think the jury found Noura guilty, and there has been no "Justice for Noura" innocence project....

 

[SMK]

A websleuthing poll about AK and RS:

Do you think Amanda Knox is GUILTY? **LIST ONLY NO DISCUSSION** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks for this! So more people think she is NOT guilty than guilty (and Websleuthers tend to be on the side of the prosecution, and justice for the victim of a homicide). And a SUBSTANTIAL number are unsure. The least number feel she is guilty. There is cause for doubt, and many see this....

 

[SMK]

Is there a thread for this case? I looked for one the first time 48 hours aired the case, but I don't think I found one. I'd be up for talking about it more if there is.

I had wondered this too, will try and search.

 

[SMK]

With an eye to not viewing this case in isolation, I have added some comments that I've read on other threads that I think are quite relevant to this discussion:

Madeleine74: "We have to remember there are people out there who are not of sound mind, and who believe the whole justice system (including any jury members) are hellbent on throwing innocent people into prison, just because they feel like it."

Macd: On whether a large number of people do not agree with the verdict: "The Internet can create a weird, artificial, and self-selected demographic."

Believe me, Otto, I take this well into account. I have often asked myself if perhaps viewing too many 48 hours Mystery crime shows - wherein the station obviously has a vested interest in raising question upon question- has destroyed my faith in law enforcement and the judicial system. On the other hand, there have been many false convictions and we must be vigilant lest the powers that be grow apathetic. Also, why is there no one coming out in favor of Casey Anthony, saying she must have been set up by an illegal immigrant nanny? One would think many young single mothers would have an interest in deeming her railroaded, but seems it's the opposite....:waitasec:

 

[otto]

Believe me, Otto, I take this well into account. I have often asked myself if perhaps viewing too many 48 hours Mystery crime shows - wherein the station obviously has a vested interest in raising question upon question- has destroyed my faith in law enforcement and the judicial system. On the other hand, there have been many false convictions and we must be vigilant lest the powers that be grow apathetic. Also, why is there no one coming out in favor of Casey Anthony, saying she must have been set up by an illegal immigrant nanny? One would think many young single mothers would have an interest in deeming her railroaded, but seems it's the opposite....:waitasec:

I don't think we can make any assumptions about what people think, especially single mothers with young children. They are the last demographic group that would have time to sit around on the computer and waste their time on the Anthony case. They should be far too busy looking after their children and making ends meet.

I suspect the percentage of false convictions that occurred in the last five years is extremely low. As I've said before, pre-DNA convictions have been overturned based on the use of DNA. What sort of cases, excluding those based on DNA results, have been overturned recently and on what basis are they overturned?

 

[SMK]

I don't think we can make any assumptions about what people think, especially single mothers with young children. They are the last demographic group that would have time to sit around on the computer and waste their time on the Anthony case. They should be far too busy looking after their children and making ends meet.

I suspect the percentage of false convictions that occurred in the last five years is extremely low. As I've said before, pre-DNA convictions have been overturned based on the use of DNA. What sort of cases, excluding those based on DNA results, have been overturned recently?

Well, I am not sure; I only know that it altered my perspective to learn of the few I did. And what about the movie "Conviction", starring Hilary Swank and based on a true story of a false conviction? And the McMartin case in the 1980s; appalling, and also turned into a movie; and the case where the prosecutor falsely convicted people of child molestation, and they were all overturned. And the corrupt judge in Pennsylvania, who convicted minors for kickbacks, and his were all thrown out. I will be truthful: I had not questioned the Knox case until I read Hendry and Fisher. But all of this put together has landed me in a quandry: it is like an unfaithful husband: Once doubts are raised, the whole thing seems to unravel. I simply lost faith in the justice system. And the Knox case became full of holes. It angered me, truthfully....

 

[otto]

Well, I am not sure; I only know that it altered my perspective to learn of the few I did. And what about the movie "Conviction", starring Hilary Swank and based on a true story of a false conviction? And the McMartin case in the 1980s; appalling, and also turned into a movie; and the case where the prosecutor falsely convicted people of child molestation, and they were all overturned. And the corrupt judge in Pennsylvania, who convicted minors for kickbacks, and his were all thrown out. I will be truthful: I had not questioned the Knox case until I read Hendry and Fisher. But all of this put together has landed me in a quandry: it is like an unfaithful husband: Once doubts are raised, the whole thing seems to unravel. I simply lost faith in the justice system. And the Knox case became full of holes. It angered me, truthfully....

You should consider carefully researching Hendry and Fisher (esp. Fisher) before believing what they have to say. Read about Fisher's interactions with the teenager - that gives insight into what kind of character he is and his level of deception.

If you generally distrust the justice system, then I can understand your skepticism regarding this, and many cases. I tend to trust the justice system, even though on rare occasions mistakes are made. In recent years (post-DNA, and an awareness of tunnel vision), mistakes are very rarely made.

 

[Malkmus]

(snip)
I suspect the percentage of false convictions that occurred in the last five years is extremely low. As I've said before, pre-DNA convictions have been overturned based on the use of DNA. What sort of cases, excluding those based on DNA results, have been overturned recently and on what basis are they overturned?

Otto, this will definitely take some more thorough research. However, a quick Google search reveals that for the state of California alone during a five year span (1989 - 2004) there were 200 convictions overturned on appeal. That's a lot for one state.

http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/innocence-lost-not-guilty-after-all

And according to Douglas Preston (I know you don't like him) “Almost half of all Italian criminal convictions are overturned on appeal"

Do you have any data that claims the rate of convictions overturned on appeal are "extremely low"?

 

[Malkmus]

You should consider carefully researching Hendry and Fisher (esp. Fisher) before believing what they have to say. Read about Fisher's interactions with the teenager - that gives insight into what kind of character he is and his level of deception.

If you generally distrust the justice system, then I can understand your skepticism regarding this, and many cases. I tend to trust the justice system, even though on rare occasions mistakes are made. In recent years (post-DNA, and an awareness of tunnel vision), mistakes are very rarely made.

Well, don't beat around the bush. Just tell us why we can't accept Fisher and Hendry as credible sources of information. Innuendo doesn't prove a point.

"Mistakes are very rarely made" - Another bold assertion on your part, and very misleading if not based on any actual data.

 

[otto]

Otto, this will definitely take some more thorough research. However, a quick Google search reveals that for the state of California alone during a five year span (1989 - 2004) there were 200 convictions overturned on appeal. That's a lot for one state.

http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/innocence-lost-not-guilty-after-all

And according to Douglas Preston (I know you don't like him) “Almost half of all Italian criminal convictions are overturned on appeal"

Do you have any data that claims the rate of convictions overturned on appeal are "extremely low"?

Look at how many of those are eyewitness error! Thankfully, this murder investigation only involved one eyewitness, and his testimony is being reviewed during appeal ... and lucky for Amanda she wasn't tried in California. Furthermore, I think the whole world is aware of monkey business in the courts in California after the Polanski mess.

 

[otto]

Well, don't beat around the bush. Just tell us why we can't accept Fisher and Hendry as credible sources of information. Innuendo doesn't prove a point.

"Mistakes are very rarely made" - Another bold assertion on your part, and very misleading if not based on any actual data.

I see no reason to introduce discussion about Fisher and Hendry from other non-media sources to this discussion. I think we all know where we can find the information, links and direct quotes from Fisher. I have also posted some of Fisher's journalist bashings on this forum. They reveal Fisher as having nothing useful to add, and as criticizing real journalists for reporting unfavorable (to Knox) info about the trial proceedings.

In the big picture, my bold statement is based on my general understanding that the justice system is generally a solid, respectable institution. Mistakes are made ... apparently often in California over the last 4+ decades. If the justice system doesn't work, it should be overhauled. In many countries, the justice system does work and what happens in California is not a reflection of international justice systems.

 

[Malkmus]

I see no reason to introduce discussion about Fisher and Hendry from other non-media sources to this discussion. I think we all know where we can find the information, links and direct quotes from Fisher. I have also posted some of Fisher's journalist bashings on this forum. They reveal Fisher as having nothing useful to add, and as criticizing real journalists for reporting unfavorable (to Knox) info about the trial proceedings.

In the big picture, my bold statement is based on my general understanding that the justice system is generally a solid, respectable institution. Mistakes are made ... apparently often in California over the last 4+ decades. If the justice system doesn't work, it should be overhauled. In many countries, the justice system does work and what happens in California is not a reflection of international justice systems.

Otto, you've tried to make two points just now:

One, that the rate of wrongful convictions is extremely low, and two, that Hendry and Fisher are bad sources of information. For both your claims you have only your own personal opinion and no data to back up either. Therefore, I don't find either convincing. If you could provide an example of either men providing false information that may help your cause. Otherwise, I find nothing wrong with his criticism of a certain journalist. I'm more interested in the factual evidence he presents on his website detailing this case.

More on wrongful convictions:

members of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers say wrongful convictions are epidemic in multiple jurisdictions and frequently arise from incompetent or dishonest law enforcement personnel. If pressed, defense lawyers say the percentage of wrongful convictions is between 5 and 10 percent.

http://cqresearcherblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/wrongful-convictions-overview-from.html

About 10,000 people in the United States may be wrongfully convicted of serious crimes each year, a new study suggests.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/ronhuff.htm

Not to mention Preston's astounding claim that nearly 50 percent of convictions are overturned on appeal in Italy. Since that is where Amanda is being tried, I think that number is the most relevant and what you should be able to refute if false.

 

[Malkmus]

So, basically, Amanda and Raf have a 50 percent chance of being successful in their appeals since the reversal rate of convictions in Italy is nearly that.

 

[SMK]

You should consider carefully researching Hendry and Fisher (esp. Fisher) before believing what they have to say. Read about Fisher's interactions with the teenager - that gives insight into what kind of character he is and his level of deception.

If you generally distrust the justice system, then I can understand your skepticism regarding this, and many cases. I tend to trust the justice system, even though on rare occasions mistakes are made. In recent years (post-DNA, and an awareness of tunnel vision), mistakes are very rarely made.

Otto: I have done press releases and reviews for both men, and have been in email contact with them. I find them both professional, kind, and have found no flaw in them. So I have no beef with Fisher or Hendry.