Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[otto]

right, and it is actually the door being as it is that is central. Most doors you can let yourself out from the inside, but not in from the outside. This locked both ways. I had a door like that in California; the lock was up above the doorknob and needed a key to get out and to lock it. I think this was pretty much established by all in the cottage, so do not know why Otto is pondering it. It may indeed have made all the difference in this case.

I'm not pondering the type of lock, I am stating that according to testimony there were four sets of keys, with each key set having a front door key and a bedroom key. There were no additional keys left lying around the cottage or in locks.

 

[otto]

Nor does Rudy Guede's. :razz:

Quite true. None of the convicted murderers is known for their truthfulness ... in fact, quite the opposite. Therefore the evidence must be decided without their claims of innocence.

 

[Nova]

We do know what Knox said in court because the video is available online and reporters that are fluent in English and Italian attended the hearing. Knox said that the first time that she, Sollecito and Guede were in the same room together was in the courtroom in Perugia. ABC news sanitized that statement to paint Knox with a cleaner paintbrush and announced that Knox claimed the only time she had ever been in a room together with Guede in her life was in the courtroom. By omitting Sollecito from the statement, they inadvertently transformed her statement into a lie.

There is no such thing as an "inadvertent" lie. If it is inadvertent, it is an error, not a lie.

In this case, the error does little to aid AK, so I still don't know why you are fixated on it.

 

[Nova]

I read a few posts back that Hendry relies on an imaginery key in the main door to frame Guede as the lonewolf in the murder. We can imagine that keys to the front door were left lying all over the cottage, but the facts are that there were four sets of keys and no more.

If Guede climbed in through the window in Filomina's bedroom, then he could just as easily have climbed out the window. At no time would he have been trapped if he acted alone.

That makes no sense. Putting a key in the door tends to exonerate RG; what implicates him is the lack of a key and his need to get one from MK.

 

[otto]

Ok, if you are working under the assumption that Amanda was involved in the murder, that could be construed as a valid criticism if you ignore LE's role in holding PL for two weeks on an extremely weak identification. Forgetting the fact he had at least two (I think it ended up being many more in the end) people vouch for his alibi for the time in question, and there was not a single piece of evidence that tied him to the murder scene. Forgetting the fact you are equating two weeks with over 3 and 1/2 years, then yes they are the exact same thing.

Since you believe AK is guilty what would you have done to free PL if you were her mother? Would you have known she was telling the truth that PL was not involved, since she is always lying? So, you would have come forward knowing (how exactly would you know at that point) she lied about PL's involvement to cover up for someone else?

However, in the case of Ms. Mellas (if she believed her daughter was involved in the murder or not), how did she know for certain PL was not involved ? RG knows for sure if AK and RS were involved or not, and he is either lying or not. Ms. Mellas if her daughter was involved or not had no idea if PL was involved or not at the time. She certainly was not as informed as Perugia LE. So that accusation is utterly unfounded and at best disingenuous.

When Knox was in prison, she told her mother, and it was recorded by investigators, that she had falsely accused Patrick. That was the basis for prosecution putting Edda on the stand and asking her why she didn't come forward and report her daughter's admitted lies.

 

[Nova]

I read a few posts back that Hendry relies on an imaginery key in the main door to frame Guede as the lonewolf in the murder. We can imagine that keys to the front door were left lying all over the cottage, but the facts are that there were four sets of keys and no more.

If Guede climbed in through the window in Filomina's bedroom, then he could just as easily have climbed out the window. At no time would he have been trapped if he acted alone.

But if after he climbed through the window, a resident returned home, he could not get back out the window without making noise and alerting that resident.

 

[mdana]

We do know what Knox said in court because the video is available online and reporters that are fluent in English and Italian attended the hearing. Knox said that the first time that she, Sollecito and Guede were in the same room together was in the courtroom in Perugia. ABC news sanitized that statement to paint Knox with a cleaner paintbrush and announced that Knox claimed the only time she had ever been in a room together with Guede in her life was in the courtroom. By omitting Sollecito from the statement, they inadvertently transformed her statement into a lie.

Have a look at Knox's court testimony for information regarding the times they met prior to the murder (at her place of work, in the square, at a party in the downstairs flat in the cottage).

It seems to me that we had discussion in the last couple of months regarding whether the US media was sanitizing trial facts; whether the information provided to the public omitted information regarding evidence. The ABC clip is a good example of misleading US media information about the case.

After three years of the reverse, I think it is too late to cry wolf. The guilters had no qualms with the character assissination the U.K., Italian, and to a lesser extent U.S. media engaged in over that time frame. Barbie Nadeau has frequently left out pertinent information, because it interferes with her psychotic Angel false narrative.

Also, it is the same in political, sports, and entertainment coverage. Reporters are really lazy and don't get quotes, context, and information correct. Sometimes it just deadlines and others it is bias. Usually, it is just a mixture of laziness and incompetency.

I would love for reporters to get the facts right on all stories, but that ain't going to happen.

 

[otto]

That makes no sense. Putting a key in the door tends to exonerate RG; what implicates him is the lack of a key and his need to get one from MK.

Per the above post re: Hendry, I understood the theory was that there was an extra imagined key in the lock that Guede was going to use to exit the cottage, but because Meredith took this imagined key out of the lock, Guede was trapped ... except he wasn't trapped because the theory is that he acted alone and climbed in through the window, so he could just as easily have climbed out the window.

 

[mdana]

But if after he climbed through the window, a resident returned home, he could not get back out the window without making noise and alerting that resident.

It is also a 11.5 ft. drop in the dark, if he wanted to try it and that is a pretty sizable jump. I have alway found it easier to scale a wall than get back down by jumping.

When I was his age I could drop about 15-20 feet, but most people sprain their ankles or worse over 10 feet. Now I can't drop more than 6 feet without problems.

 

[otto]

But if after he climbed through the window, a resident returned home, he could not get back out the window without making noise and alerting that resident.

He decided to sexually assault Meredith because she would have heard him climbing out the broken window?

 

[dgfred]

Since the jurors/judges made their decisions upon the evidence presented, I don't know what 'guilters' have to do with what the media does or does not do. 'Guilters' nor the media are the reasons AK and RS were convicted IMO.

 

[mdana]

That is exactly what everyone was asking a week ago when it happened. I think it should be noted that many people that want Knox and Sollecito to be innocent are already finding ways to rewrite history to suggest that it was the prosecution that introduced the 5 lying prisoners ... but it was in fact the defense that introduced the prisoners, with Sollecito choosing one prisoner lie, Knox choosing a different prisoner lie, and the whole thing falling apart because the lies contradicted each other. Because of the contradiction, and because the prisoners claimed that Guede was the source of the lies, the Judge decided to bring Guede in to testify.

Guede had written a letter to a news outlet in 2010 accusing the pair of being present at the time of the murder, but Sollecito's lawyer claimed that she had never heard of the letter. That is why she strenuously argued to keep it out of evidence. It was a complete fumble on behalf of the defense, and now they are looking to the DNA review and hoping for the best. In fact, I think the five lying prisoners seriously detracted from the strength of their legal positions. Furthermore, with the letter from Guede entered into evidence, and the Supreme Court ruling that Guede did not act alone, it does not look good for the pair.

She is supposedly the best in the courtroom according to the RS article. Another head scratcher in this case.

 

[dgfred]

He decided to sexually assault Meredith because she would have heard him climbing out the broken window?

And kill her too?

 

[Nova]

Indeed, I do not buy the story that after 2 hours of questioning Knox was forced to implicate an innocent man, and then forced to keep it a secret for two weeks. You do accept the claim that after 2 hours Knox was forced to implicate an innocent man. There we are, and there we will remain. I'm not ignoring your position, I'm simply pointing out how I and the courts view the evidence. As long as it is stated that Knox was coerced to implicate an innocent man after 2 hours, I will continue to state that it is farfetched and unbelievable. She was found guilty for her decision to implicate Patrick and keep it a secret.

None of which responds in any way to what I posted.

Whether or not you believe AK was coerced, there had to be some reason she implicated PL. She had no way of knowing whether he had an alibi; in fact, it turned out he did.

Why implicate PL? Why not a "bushy haired stranger"? Obviously, she was saying what ILE wanted her to say. This is further obvious when one reads the accounts of PL's alibi witnesses who endured all sorts of coercive interrogation from ILE trying to get THEM to implicate PL as well.

You have repeated the mantra that AK and EM "knew" PL was innocent until you probably believe it yourself. But the fact is they had no way of knowing this.

All AK knew was that she had made a false statement--which she recanted to a great degree in her gift statement.

 

[otto]

It is also a 11.5 ft. drop in the dark, if he wanted to try it and that is a pretty sizable jump. I have alway found it easier to scale a wall than get back down by jumping.

When I was his age I could drop about 15-20 feet, but most people sprain their ankles or worse over 10 feet. Now I can't drop more than 6 feet without problems.

He wouldn't have to jump. According to the lonewolf theory, it was a simple task for Guede to scale a 3.5 meter flat wall rather than climb over the balcony (which he had done in a previous break-in). Presumably it would also be a simple task to climb down that wall.

 

[otto]

And kill her too?

I haven't bothered reading the theories of Hendry, Fisher and other Knox groupies, but if the theory requires an imaginery key, and a sexual assault and murder because the lonewolf suddenly forgot how to exit through the window that he entered, then there are some serious problems with the theories.

 

[Nova]

When Knox was in prison, she told her mother, and it was recorded by investigators, that she had falsely accused Patrick. That was the basis for prosecution putting Edda on the stand and asking her why she didn't come forward and report her daughter's admitted lies.

a. Because she didn't speak the local language.

b. Because she didn't know there was no other evidence against PL.

She did exactly what you are still doing: she trusted Perugia LE to do its job.

 

[otto]

None of which responds in any way to what I posted.

Whether or not you believe AK was coerced, there had to be some reason she implicated PL. She had no way of knowing whether he had an alibi; in fact, it turned out he did.

Why implicate PL? Why not a "bushy haired stranger"? Obviously, she was saying what ILE wanted her to say. This is further obvious when one reads the accounts of PL's alibi witnesses who endured all sorts of coercive interrogation from ILE trying to get THEM to implicate PL as well.

You have repeated the mantra that AK and EM "knew" PL was innocent until you probably believe it yourself. But the fact is they had no way of knowing this.

All AK knew was that she had made a false statement--which she recanted to a great degree in her gift statement.

She didn't recant anything in her gift statement. She said that she stood behind her statements regarding Patrick.

" And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik ..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

 

[Nova]

Per the above post re: Hendry, I understood the theory was that there was an extra imagined key in the lock that Guede was going to use to exit the cottage, but because Meredith took this imagined key out of the lock, Guede was trapped ... except he wasn't trapped because the theory is that he acted alone and climbed in through the window, so he could just as easily have climbed out the window.

What's central to the theory is that RG was trapped inside a locked door and had to get a key from MK.

I see no persuasive value in adding an extra complication about a missing fifth key. If Hendry did so, I don't remember it, but it must be because he was told such a key was usually in the door.

 

[otto]

a. Because she didn't speak the local language.

b. Because she didn't know there was no other evidence against PL.

She did exactly what you are still doing: she trusted Perugia LE to do its job.

Here we will have to part ways again. I think that a math teacher that holds important information about a man falsely accused of murder should be able to figure out a way to get that information to police. Apparently you are willing to overlook the fact that the educated, intelligent math teacher was completely befuddled because she didn't speak Italian, and so she did nothing.