Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

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  • #761
I cannot answer this fred, but if you look at my article I posted in my last post, I see a bit of something already.

Well, to be fair, we ALL know lies can be leaked in this case.

And we know the press flies with lies before they check it out.

I don't think that's the case this time, but this case was full of reports where it was fact, then it was "Psyche!" Like the "bloody" bathroom and the "bloody" footprints, and the "bleach" and the...well, you catch my drift. I strongly believe these particular reports, but the guilters believed the other ones, so I don't blame them for being skeptical about these new findings.

However, they did say that the case was strong without the knife and the clasp, so really, there should be nothing for the guilters to worry about.

(psyche! :floorlaugh:)
 
  • #762
I think without the knife and the bra clasp, there is no way the two can be convicted of murder. But they could be still convicted of being an accessory to murder. I wonder if throwing out that evidence means a new trial? I don't know how italy works.

I think I said this before, but if what is stated here is true: that the courts must presume the burglary was staged and that it is a fact that there was more than one person involved in the crime, then you have to look at the remaining evidence and say whether there is a reasonable doubt that this other person (or persons) were NOT Amanda and/or Raffaelle. This is like the Central Park case someone referred to earlier.

I don't use the staged break-in as evidence because the defenses explanation sways me. However, if I am required to believe the break-in was staged then I would believe that Amanda and Raffaelle were present that night, they did not participate in the murder, but they were afraid they would be found guilty of the crime, so they covered it up.

I also think the criminal parade and Rudy could prove to be quite damaging to the defense. Just from a psychological level, it feels like a circus, and jurors might feel like they are trying to cover up and/or distract from the facts.

I don't really understand the process, but you usually try to keep it straightforward for a judge. But juries are highly emotional, so you jazz it up for the juries. But that can backfire on you.

But the court said the DNA results were "a fact."

The court said the "TOD" was a fact.

The court said the knife was a "Fact."

The fact is, what did the say? 40% of Italian judgements are overturned on appeal.

If the break-in must stand as staged, who's to say RG or his "accomplice" didn't do it?

As far as the criminal parade (love that phrase), I see it as RG told the story to those 3, so he could continue trying to absolve himself. The mobster brother...okay, he's just as bad as the homeless man....

So I need to hear what the new scenerio is if AK wasn't running around with a kitchen knife in her bag and RS has NO evidence of being in the murder room either.
 
  • #763
Well, I can tell you I thought they were guilty from Jan. 2008- Spring 2010.......

Oh, I think it might be safe to say that people supporting innocence all probably had their doubts somewhere along the way. And with convincing evidence, we'd be the first to throw away the "fifth key" on them. :floorlaugh:
 
  • #764
Yes, I absolutely did. I have no idea why I would substitute PL for RG like that.

Perhaps I was momentarily possessed by the spirt of an Italian carabinieri!

Thank you for the correction.

Well, we all know how Mig feels about the carabinieri, thanks to that "leaked un-interview" he did for 3 hours.
 
  • #765
agreed... everything has fallen and that's why lame issues keep being brought back up (e.g. Amanda had strange friends. Amanda pointed the finger at an innocent man..)

as it turned out, the boys downstairs had the strange friends and as far as the whole PL debacle... Amanda was given a year, she served it - time to move on!

The boys downstairs had the worst friend of all! RUDY GUEDE!!!!
 
  • #766
Who expected Guede to say anything else? No one I can recall.

Oh, sure, it would have been nice if he had suddenly told the truth, but I don't remember anyone predicting that was going to happen.

No, but I sure was hoping, and wishing and praying....and I believed the defense could cross examine him to get the truth about statements, since the testimony before him had brought up intrical details that he was denying.
 
  • #767
Sorry, I didn't mean fascinating to sound negative. I meant it more along the lines of "I wouldn't have thought those were the specific pieces that convinced you, and that is surprising and interesting to me."

Specifically you said: "I find the lack of an alibi (no computer use) and the evasive/contradictory statements/lying much more 'suspicious' . I also find comparing the email home to her first statement to prosecutors and judges quite telling."

It surprises me if those are your top reasons for believing them to be guilty.

Now mixed dna of AK and Meredith, luminol barefoot prints, staged break-in, evidence of multiple attackers, bathmat print.... that's different. I continue to find the luminol footprints damaging, and I still dont' have hard data to discount what they do or do not prove. I also find the bathmat print somewhat damaging. I do think it fits Raffaelle's footprint better than Guedes. That being said, I have been told by investigator that the shape of a footprint without a DNA finding is poor quality evidence.

As for the rest:

1) No alibi of computer use: Massei report stating that there is data loss makes me dismiss this. If what others say here is true, that they friend the other computers, then that is more reason to discount it, for me.

2) mixed DNA: damaging. But it is not the mix that I find damaging as much as it is the lack of Rudy's DNA in the mix. So, mixed DNA in the bathroom with no Rudy DNA there. Damaging.

3) blatant lies: I don't find the lies that blatant. I do think there is a lot of self-serving statements going on, but I don't find it to be that suspicious. For example, I don't think Amanda had dinner at 11pm. I think she's saying that to confirm she is innocent. I think she probably had dinner at 8 or 9. But I don't think it means she's guilty. For instance, I think Roy Kronk in the Anthony trial isn't guilty of anything, but I think he also tries and says things to make himself look in the most favorable light, to the point that he is lying.

4) Staged break-in: Extremely damaging if true. I think it's just as likely not to be staged as it is to be staged, myself.

5) Evidence of multiple attackers: Extremely damaging if true. Especially because there is very little unidentified DNA, so if there were multiple attackers then the likelihood leans towards Amanda or Raffaelle.

Compared to these:

1) Lack of alibi: I don't find this that damaging. It was the middle of the night.

2) Contradictory statements compared to email: Not at all damaging (to me).

3) Lying: slightly damaging. (again to me.)

It's interesting to see how people's opinions are shaped.

Okay, but the problems you have about the case, valid as they might be, have been addressed or was attempted to be addressed by the defense, but the judge either didn't allow their experts, didn't allow them to do further tests, or ruled out of their favor on the thing in question.

1. Computer alibi. AK supposedly was checking her emails that night. Her computer was fried. I do nt know if there was another way to corroberate that she checked them besides the computer. 75% of the computers were fried, including MK's, which, if she'd used it at home, COULD have proved a later TOD. RS wanted his computer reviewed by the manfacturers to see if data could be retrieved, but the court denied that. They have since found other indications on his mac that he was using it that night. My theory is that he used one computer to research stuff and other other computer for the movies and the music. The one with less activity "happened" to have survived. Go figure. (just my hunch.)

2. mixed DNA. AK hardly was at home that week because she'd just met RS. We see that RS had little to no dna in that house, save for a cigarette bud. AK's DNA was in the bathroom, mostlylikely because she'd just showered in there. I'm assuming if she'd just stayed stinky, then that DNA wouldn't have been there, mixed with anything of MK's. I find it strange that RG's dna isn't in the bathroom, however, I'll use the guilter's excuse of why AK's isn't in the murder room--the detectives didn't swab the whole bathroom, and then they performed that test to turn it all pink. Didn't they say somewhere in the case they decided to use a blood test over a dna test in some places and once they did the first test, they hadn't enough material to do the second one? I want to say that had to do with the footprints, but maybe that also happened in the bathroom in some places. Just guessing, but it could be a reason RG's isn't in there. If the jury accepts AK as the lead murderer without her DNA in the murder room, then I can accept RG was in the bathroom without his DNA being in there.

3. Again, the Defense had experts to prove it was a real break-in. The judge disallowed the testimony because the expert was a ballistics expert. Ballistic deals with bullets, not rocks, says the judge with rocks for brains.

4. Multiple attackers? Then I'd ask the court to explain the extra 3 sets of DNA on the bra clasp but we now know it's contaminated. I'd then ask them to tell me about the other 19 unidentified DNA profiles in the house. Then maybe we'd have an answer about multiple attackers.

5. Lies. What lies besides RS dreaming up that he pricked MK and AK dreaming up the PL thing?

So that's how I see it. I believe the defense was NOT allowed to put on a case during the frist trial, and that's why evidence seems daming. In this appeal, they seem to be getting that chance. You said yourself that the MOT report was narrowminded in theory and cherry-picked, and while in court, that judge's view was also brought to the evidence that you question.
 
  • #768
Obvously, I can't prove that anti-Americanism wasn't a factor. (In fact, it obviously was a factor in some of the media coverage.)

But the program I saw made it sound like a group of Italian jurors sat in a room and made a group decision to convict an innocent American woman. That's the part I don't believe.

They made a group decision all right. The two judges told the laymen how it was gonna be, and the two judges are the ones who decided and wrote everything.
 
  • #769
This one truly made me chuckle of Nick Pisa and I apologize if this article has already been posted

"The experts also stressed that "international standards of searching for and gathering evidence were not followed with regard to the knife and the bra clasp".

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...After_DNA_Evidence_May_Have_Been_Contaminated

I laughed at an article SMK posted where they said something like, "And in this case, NONE of the protocols were followed..."
 
  • #770
  • #771
The prosecution did not DISCLOSE the RAW DATA!!!! to the defense. They were told to disclose it to the experts and in fact ordered to. The findings of the experts were based in part on the RAW DATA. This is past contamination they are stating that the findings of Stephanoni are WRONG

This and the TMB (for blood in the luminol) were probably in fact the only two things that were NOT leaked in the case!

:floorlaugh:
 
  • #772
Yup. There simply comes a point in time when you have this many DNA experts stating there are issues, then appointing an independent panel to make a determination and that agrees with what all the other experts have been saying nothing will change some minds

Next we'll be asked to provide proof that these people are really experts.
 
  • #773
OK, case in point: now how would YOU respond to this? Here is a snippet from someone on Perugia Murder File: Please tell me before I lose my mind! starting to scream in New Jersey: :okay: Please help Allusonz!!

:banghead: Denial, much????? OR is there something I myself am not grasping???:eek::eek::( someone please clarify!!

He's "seen it and heard it all before" because it's what his opposing theorists have been saying for years. There's a difference now. Now there's proof that the investigators made a mistake, something guilters based their confidence in is now in question. They trusted the system and it appears that the system is failing.
 
  • #774
Right. I am particularly impressed, as I am so, so pessimistic and cautious: Whenever I get good news, I do not trust it. So to impress me, it has to be strong.
This is like thinking you have cancer, and expecting the doctor's report to say so, and in very strong language, the doctor says again and again that he has found none.

Rejoice!

It's JUSTICE FOR MK!!!!!!!!!!

:fireworks:

Justice for AK!!!!!!

:bud:

And justice for RS!!!!!!!

:online:

And justice for RG, too. :put em up:
 
  • #775
Delurking one last time, bold by me...

Fred has a very good point here - the Judges/Jury really can rule on the evidence however they wish...we can argue until we are blue in the face about what their ethical obligations might be, but it makes no difference. In a world where three quarters of all false confession cases that have absolutely zero evidence for guilt still lead to guilty verdicts, you really can't reliably say just what a Jury will decide until they actually do, especially since evidence, no matter how contested it may be, actually has been presented in this case. IMO, it's still anybody's ball game, and the victory dances on both sides in the past few days have all been premature.

Okay, going back to my dark little corner to just observe the chaos for a while...

After how hard all this has been, I'm dancing.

:great:

I'll worry about being premature if I have to---later.

Well, now that I have celebrated.....:offtobed:
 
  • #776
We shall see.

I agree. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched and all that.

Reading about all of this has made me realize how important it is to have a lawyer who has technical knowledge. i.e. how many lawyers would know to ask if the machines had been thoroughly cleaned before the evidence was tested, and if there was a control sample done to make sure that there was no contamination on the machine.

In my opinion that knife should never have been introduced.

That being said, and as another poster stated, the vast majority of people with false confessions go to jail because people perceive them as guilty.
 
  • #777
I know this trial is far from over, but I have always been confused on why the guilters latched onto the AK stole from MK or AK was jealous of MK theories of motivation for murder. I always thought those motivations were superfluous, if not ridiculous. Yet, the most sensible motivation for AK to lash out (if there was an actual motivation) was the size of AK's room. I am suprised I have never read a mention of the fact that Amanda had the smallest room in the apartment, but still had to pay the same as the other three girls. I would have thought that would have been the most logical motivation.

Unfortunately, for the guilters they would have had to admit that MK, FR, LM the martyr and saints of their cult were sponging off the Lucretian Lucifer that is AK. Which would have been tantamount to apostasy to admit the selfish self-absorbed satanic one subsidized the rest.


I mean no disrespect to MK or her memory just the fetishized fanacticism of the true "believers".

IIRC AK moved in first and had her choice of the room she took or the room later taken by MK. The rent amount was what she originally agreed to pay. AFAIK, other than MK wishing AK were neater in the bathroom, there was no conflict over the rooms. I don't think there's any motive for murder here.
 
  • #778
There was no possibility to retest the DNA, contamination cannot be ruled out but has not been proven, and for the rest, I guess we'll have to wait until the people at the Meredith Kercher support website (the "flawed" site) translate the report.

I suspect it will become a battle of the experts.

The prosecution has "experts"? Where have they been hiding them?
 
  • #779
This is the crux of it: The review by the Independent panel has weighed the prosecution's evidence in the balance, and it has come up wanting. Ergo, the quantum of evidence has a preponderance toward the defense, and the defense now has the ear of the panel, and the truth is being revealed after 3 1/2 years. This is the strongest indication that all will be well with the defendants I have seen since they were convicted. If only I had some of their good luck.

Alas, the trial is still being held in Italy. I make no predictions as to what the court will do with the independent reports.

I fear that the dominant theme in the appellate decision may come down to saving face for the Italian justice system. If so, the jury may not be in a hurry to give much weight to "international standards" if those standards are seen as dominated by Americans.

On the other hand, maybe Stefanoni will make a convenient scapegoat and a way to put an end to all the bad publicity.

Only time will tell.
 
  • #780
No, but I sure was hoping, and wishing and praying....and I believed the defense could cross examine him to get the truth about statements, since the testimony before him had brought up intrical details that he was denying.

You were far more hopeful than I.
 
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