Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[Nova]

It seems rather clear to me. "NO bashing the decision maker(s) no matter what the final outcome is in this case" would mean to not bash the judge, jury and prosecutor, just like in the Anthony Trial.

You know, otto, it's also a violation of TOS for non-mods to criticize and lecture other posters, something you seem to do quite a bit of late.

There. Now we're both guilty.

 

[emyr]

As per your linked article and numerous others, Luminol is a presumptive test, not a confirmatory one. In case there is confusion as to what that means, here's the wiki for those terms:
Presumptive and confirmatory tests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Or we can look at the legal definition here:
http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/presumptive-test/





And here's a great little article about presumptive tests:
http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/blood-presumptive-test





Also from the above article, a bit that is of key interest here, as we've seen how crappy the 'control' of the crime scene was (on video no less! :loser: ):




All bolds by me.

I'm sure that I can find case law on this, and my wife can get me access to bonified biotech papers on the subject if you want, but it's going to have to wait until we have a little less RL in our lives.:crazy:

Otto's link also showed the TMB test to be a presumptive test as well. The TMB test was negative. My understanding is the TMB test was done after the luminol test. The TMB test is a narrower test (reacts to fewer agents), but the luminol is a more sensitive test (reacts to more dilution). As I understand it. No confirmatory tests shown in Otto's article were done (that I know of.)

The only way, therefore, that the footprints can be from blood is if the footprints were made between the band of sensitivity of the two tests.

From a prosecuterial standpoint, you would have to say that the footprints were made from highly diluted blood. Since they cover the entirety of the foot, and there is no evidence of clean up (smeared footprints from the highly sensitive luminol test), then the assumption would have to be that this person stepped in a puddle of highly diluted blood with their bare foot.

I have read several places that both TMB and Luminol were used. Luminol reacted and TMB was negative. I feel pretty confident accepting these as facts, and a google hunt for TMB results agrees with the randi poster in terms of test sensitivity.

I have not found confirmation that the forensic team saw a "strong" reaction to the luminol. However, the image posted appears to be a strong glow. I am not a forensic scientist, so that's just my opinion. I await facts.

 

[SkewedView]

Otto's link also showed the TMB test to be a presumptive test as well. The TMB test was negative. My understanding is the TMB test was done after the luminol test. The TMB test is a narrower test (reacts to fewer agents), but the luminol is a more sensitive test (reacts to more dilution). As I understand it. No confirmatory tests shown in Otto's article were done (that I know of.)

The only way, therefore, that the footprints can be from blood is if the footprints were made between the band of sensitivity of the two tests.

From a prosecuterial standpoint, you would have to say that the footprints were made from highly diluted blood. Since they cover the entirety of the foot, and there is no evidence of clean up (smeared footprints from the highly sensitive luminol test), then the assumption would have to be that this person stepped in a puddle of highly diluted blood with their bare foot.

I have read several places that both TMB and Luminol were used. Luminol reacted and TMB was negative. I feel pretty confident accepting these as facts, and a google hunt for TMB results agrees with the randi poster in terms of test sensitivity.

I have not found confirmation that the forensic team saw a "strong" reaction to the luminol. However, the image posted appears to be a strong glow. I am not a forensic scientist, so that's just my opinion. I await facts.

The simple truth is that Stephanini fudged it. After getting a negative on the TMB, she decided to hide it and fake that the luminol test was conclusive, rather than to do the confirmatory tests in the lab. I'm sorry, but the subjective impressions of the technician with regards to the strength and speed of the reaction are no substitute for verifiable lab tests. Period. What Stephanini did with her testimony was unethical at the very least. It is in fact the same thing that the FBI lab used to do, before it was discredited and forced to completely change the way that it trained and regulated its people.

From a Judicial standpoint, the Prosecution stating that something must be blood, when it in fact may or may not be blood, is good grounds to toss the whole mess of testimony in the trash - if you are in a court that understands that that is what indeed happened, that is. Good luck finding a Judge that understands Scientific Method well enough to do so :banghead:.

 

[otto]

You know, otto, it's also a violation of TOS for non-mods to criticize and lecture other posters, something you seem to do quite a bit of late.

There. Now we're both guilty.

I suppose I was being too optimistic in hoping that the discussion could be about the crime and criminals and not the people that are doing their jobs to ensure that justice is done.

 

[otto]

Does anyone expect to see Knox at home in October - like her family expects?

 

[SMK]

I suppose I was being too optimistic in hoping that the discussion could be about the crime and criminals and not the people that are doing their jobs to ensure that justice is done.

Within a trial or an appeal trial, is it not precisely the Prosecutors, Defense team, and Judge/Jurors who bear the most weight regarding the crime and criminals in question?:waitasec:

 

[SkewedView]

Does anyone expect to see Knox at home in October - like her family expects?

IMO, even with an acquittal, Knox will at best be under house arrest in Italy pending the inevitable appeal by the Prosecution and the Kerchers, and pending her Criminal Slander trial. So no, I don't see her landing in the States for years yet.

 

[SkewedView]

I suppose I was being too optimistic in hoping that the discussion could be about the crime and criminals and not the people that are doing their jobs to ensure that justice is done.

And if someone is a victim of that supposed quest for justice, what then? Or are the servants of the State always to be held faultless for their actions?

 

[otto]

And if someone is a victim of that supposed quest for justice, what then? Or are the servants of the State always to be held faultless for their actions?

What evidence is there that the murderers of Meredith Kercher should be viewed as victims?

 

[OldSteve]

IMO, even with an acquittal, Knox will at best be under house arrest in Italy pending the inevitable appeal by the Prosecution and the Kerchers, and pending her Criminal Slander trial. So no, I don't see her landing in the States for years yet.

Even if she wins, she really has lost so much at this point...

 

[Nova]

Does anyone expect to see Knox at home in October - like her family expects?

What makes you think they expect her to be home this Fall? In interviews I've read, her relatives have always been very cautious about making predictions.

 

[miley]

... and is this request based on the hope that no tests can be done - giving the defense an opportunity to create a theory around their preferred food type?

(snip)

lol, no, you have it backwards... the judge denied the testing so mignini could call it a mushroom

 

[SkewedView]

What evidence is there that the murderers of Meredith Kercher should be viewed as victims?

Only one man has been convicted of murder in this case. Rudy. All others are not considered convicted yet by Italian Law. AK and RS are in fact not even serving time right now, though their precautionary incarceration will count as time served should they be convicted in their final appeal. Thus why I don't go around saying that Mignini has been convicted of corruption - he hasn't until he has seen all of his appeals through (and IMO he has a good chance of getting acquitted and retiring with his pension intact).

That said, there is plenty of evidence (to some of us) to suspect Perugian LE and its lab of either gross incompetence, negligence or just plain foul play with regards to its handling of this case (as I have said before, I don't neccessarily see Mignini as being responsible for any mishandling of the case, especially since he has stated in interviews that he doesn't trust Perugian LE to act in a professional manner). I would list my concerns, but they have been dismissed out of hand by guilters before, so I won't waste my time.

I already know that you disagree with that, and I respect that. I do need to ask you this, however, given your less than charitable comments regarding the Innocence Project: Do you believe that people are falsely convicted of crimes, or is the Jury always correct in its decisions? And if indeed people are falsely convicted, and spend years in prison for crimes they didn't commit, are they not victims?

 

[otto]

What makes you think they expect her to be home this Fall? In interviews I've read, her relatives have always been very cautious about making predictions.

"The sentiment in the room was optimistic. If she wins her appeal she could be home before October, and celebrate her 25th birthday in Seattle."

Knox Fundraiser: http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/07/12/news/update-slideshow-amanda-knox-benefit-raises-15395

 

[Nova]

"The sentiment in the room was optimistic. If she wins her appeal she could be home before October, and celebrate her 25th birthday in Seattle."

Knox Fundraiser: http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/07/12/news/update-slideshow-amanda-knox-benefit-raises-15395

In the quote you provide, we get (a) the reporter's subjective impression of the moods of others; and (b) the reporter's prediction concerning a possible release date for AK.

Neither is a statement by a member of the family. At this point, I am confident that AK's parents and siblings understand the Italian system and are well aware of the likelihood of yet another appeal, regardless of the verdict in the Fall.

I can't speak for Grandma. I don't know her. Maybe they are letting her hope.

 

[Allusonz]

Oh, no! Someone dinged the cake! :crazy:

You see at the bottom. Oh, well, At least it's not as bad a things as staged glass on the murder room floor, or clothes left in a "warm washer" or a mushroom in the throat of someone who didn't eat mushrooms that day....

ummmm it was probably me doing a taste test :innocent: (teasing)

 

[SMK]

What evidence is there that the murderers of Meredith Kercher should be viewed as victims?

They would be victims precisely because not her murderers. Did you really fail to grasp this point? And did you think we were saying, "AK and RS murdered Meredith. Ergo, they are victims and should be set free?". :waitasec::sick:

 

[Allusonz]

YES!

This is just what I wanted--short of mistakes committed specifically by PS on cases! Thanks!

:tyou:

That is a 2 part thing have not had a chance to read the 2nd part yet

 

[otto]

Only one man has been convicted of murder in this case. Rudy. All others are not considered convicted yet by Italian Law. AK and RS are in fact not even serving time right now, though their precautionary incarceration will count as time served should they be convicted in their final appeal. Thus why I don't go around saying that Mignini has been convicted of corruption - he hasn't until he has seen all of his appeals through.

That said, there is plenty of evidence (to some of us) to suspect Perugian LE and its lab of either gross incompetence, negligence or just plain foul play with regards to its handling of this case (as I have said before, I don't neccessarily see Mignini as being responsible for any mishandling of the case, especially since he has stated in interviews that he doesn't trust Perugian LE to act in a professional manner). I would list my concerns, but they have been dismissed out of hand by guilters before, so I won't waste my time.

I already know that you disagree with that, and I respect that. I do need to ask you this, however, given your less than charitable comments regarding the Innocence Project: Do you believe that people are falsely convicted of crimes, or is the Jury always correct in its decisions? And if indeed people are falsely convicted, and spend years in prison for crimes they didn't commit, are they not victims?

Suspicion that something is not right does not justify viewing the murderers as victims. Suspicions that something is wrong in the investigation into Knox and Sollecito should also justify viewing Guede as a victim. Is it reasonable to excuse all three murderers of the murder of Meredith Kercher because there are suspicions?

As I've said before, I think any discussion of false convictions has to be divided into two categories: pre-DNA and post-DNA (post 1995). I think post-DNA false convictions are very rare, and that pre-DNA false convictions are slowly being corrected. Since pre-DNA false convictions are being corrected post-DNA, many seem to argue that those false convictions are contemporary problems. I don't think that's true.

Regarding any suggestion of a false conviction regarding Knox, Sollecito and Guede, that ball was rolling well before the verdict. Any thoughts on why?

 

[SMK]

IMO, even with an acquittal, Knox will at best be under house arrest in Italy pending the inevitable appeal by the Prosecution and the Kerchers, and pending her Criminal Slander trial. So no, I don't see her landing in the States for years yet.

My feeling is, Knox/Sollecito should be freed with a just verdict at the end of the appeal, or at this point they may as well kill themselves. I think all those who work on behalf of them, believing them to be innocent, such as Candace Dempsey, Bruce Fisher, Doug Bremmer, et al, would feel that freed some years down the line would be a total and devastating defeat, and a victory for the prosecution.