Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

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  • #1,641
I hate to say it this way, but "if it really is" his DNA all over the rest of the bra, that begs the question EVEN more the need for RS's assistance to touch only the metal hook.

We also have some "guilty" behavior from RG, such as his story of her bleeding to death, but he doesn't get her help, his fleeing the country and discarding his shoes, clothes, and mostlikely the murder weapon. And we have his lies about his "relationship" with MK, which neither his friends nor MK's substantiate.

RG places himself down at the cottage 20 minutes before newspapers say MK got home. Why is that? And if that's true, how does he meet AK and RS there at that time when they don't have any phone calls between them? How Do AK and RS meet RG when RS is busy on the phone with his father at that same time and AK at the door talking to RS's friend at around that same time?

Then there's the fact that RG approximates the death taking place around 920pm to 930pm. He's probably more correct than the experts, but the TOD approximations line up with what he said, so he's gotta be right about it. And if what RG says lines up with the evidence, we know RS accessed his cartoon at 926pm, so....

Even if some dispute that, the MOT report still says he did activity at 910pm, which would give him and AK 5 minutes to rush up to the cottage to orchestrate MK's murder for no aparent reason.

We also know RG is correct because we know from the broken down car and tow truck guy that the cottage was dark with zero activity between 1015pm and 1130pm.

The only stretch I can possibly make is that RS and AK could have come home to get the mop and walked in on RG fleeing the scene. The couple was traumatized for the night and decided to call the police in the morning, which would explain RG's crazy story. I really doubt that happened, but I just can see no scenero where a woman, whose dating a man whose family has money, would see the need to kill over 300 euros. IF Ak stole it and MK threatened to tell the other roommates, still don't see that as a reason to murder. I just don't see AK logically telling RS and RG to "sic" MK before she called the roommates or the police over that. I even LESS see RS and RG just blindly complying, etiher.

They say they don't need to prove motive, but over something as bizarre as their theory, I think they DO need to prove motive. I hate to be crass, but if RS's family does have money and AK was sleeping with him, why wouldn't she just try to pump him for money rather than steal from MK and murder MK over it? Makes no sense. Certainly makes no sense for RS to be murdering someone to "split" 300 euros take. That's absurd.

As for the sex game gone wrong....can't even get into how absurd that is. That theory requires physical contact, and as we can see from the evidence, only RG had physical contact with the victim, so does a knife attack, right? o I'm very unclear at how such a "hands on" kind of crime wouldn't require physical evidence from RS and AK, certainly rising higher than the level of "maybe" RS floated in and tapped the bra clasp before dipping the front of his right foot in blood, floating out and mysteriously depositing his footprint on the bathmat, doing an expert clean up, but leaving his footprint on the bathmat for the world to see.

I really wish I could make up a feasibly guilty scenerio, so I could understand that insistence upon guilt.

Very well laid out, w_m! I just have two comments:

1. I know you are trying to be fair to pro-guilt theories, but if AK and RS walked in on RG killing MK, I don't think their reaction would be "What a trauma! Let's wait until tomorrow to call LE." I think they would have been so hopped up on adrenaline that the natural reaction would have been to call LE immediately.

2. It's true the prosecution has no technical requirement to prove motive. But you're right about this case. Here, they are trying to assert motive to make up for the fact that they have little to no evidence of a group attack on MK.

They are playing a shell game, distracting the jury with lurid tales of motive to disguise their inability to prove that three people took part in the stabbing. (Or maybe it's two, now, with AK calling instructions from the other room in a language she didn't speak. Hard to keep track of Mignini's theories of the crime.)
 
  • #1,642
Don't forget she also withheld the fsa files even after the judge ordered her to turn them over, AND she giftwrapped a mop. A mop, I say.

:floorlaugh:

I think you guys are probably right that Stefanoni didn't plant evidence.

But given what she DID do, how can we ever know for sure?
 
  • #1,643
and since they told Amanda she'd get 30 years if she didn't confess, told Patrick he'd get half of 30 if he would confess then I have no doubt they told Rudy (?)

She did get 30 whether she confessed or not.

How would Patrick get 15 if he confessed?
 
  • #1,644
Wow! I didn't know they said that to PL. That does rather change my understanding of the oft-repeated axiom that there are no "plea bargains in the Italian judicial system".

Well to be fair... it only took miley stating it for you to change your 'understanding'.

There are no plea bargains.
 
  • #1,645
How would Patrick get 15 if he confessed?

Respectfully snipped by me.

He wouldn't. In the US, LE used to use the tactic of lying about deals to get confessions, many of which were false (remember, LE can lie to you all they want during an 'interview'), until it was ruled by the Supreme Court that such statements count as coerced. Now they just go with the more general 'we can help you if you help us' lines (which are still lies, LE is not allowed to do favors in exchange for admissible testimony, that would be coercion).

I'm not sure what the rules are in Italy as far as these tactics go, but given how far behind the rest of the Western EU members Italy's Justice System is, I wouldn't be surprised if they were allowed to say such a thing. Even if they aren't, Perugian LE has proven in other interview situations that they don't follow the law (or at least the spirit of it), so again, it wouldn't surprise me if they did say this.
 
  • #1,646
You know, as I've thought about it, I'm really starting to suspect that Mignini really was bamboozled by PLE, and has perhaps come to suspect that may be the case recently, especially given the strong statements that he has given that he wishes he had been able to use the military police for the investigation, because he feels that PLE was too unprofessional and lacked detachment...add in his equally strong statements that he was not there for the RS and AK interviews (just the statements)...seems an interesting possibility to me.
 
  • #1,647
You know, as I've thought about it, I'm really starting to suspect that Mignini really was bamboozled by PLE, and has perhaps come to suspect that may be the case recently, especially given the strong statements that he has given that he wishes he had been able to use the military police for the investigation, because he feels that PLE was too unprofessional and lacked detachment...add in his equally strong statements that he was not there for the RS and AK interviews (just the statements)...seems an interesting possibility to me.
I think you are right. Mignini is not the crux of this, not the bad guy, to my thinking; not at all. He may have fallen prey to a fixed idea, but I do not think he did so without a lot of pushing. And he came to his conclusions honestly, and with justice as his object - even if I believe they may be erroneous. I think he has a fair amount of integrity and decency.
 
  • #1,648
I think you are right. Mignini is not the crux of this, not the bad guy, to my thinking; not at all. He may have fallen prey to a fixed idea, but I do not think he did so without a lot of pushing. And he came to his conclusions honestly, and with justice as his object - even if I believe they may be erroneous. I think he has a fair amount of integrity and decency.

I think I'd tend to agree - heck, to be honest, it's not like even his abuse of power charges (if true, remember, he's not truly convicted yet) are for actions that are, to be brutally honest, not all that unusual or shocking in his profession (unethical, sure, but when you are struggling against scum long enough, it gets mighty tempting to fudge the rules to potentially get to the truth).

Really, as I've looked into this, it has reminded me of many other cases where an attention seeking police chief/sheriff latches onto a high profile case and drags his whole department and the prosecutors into a rushed and questionable investigation.

Remember that it was Napolitano (sp?) that decided that wriggling hips, pizza eating and comic books = murderers. He would also be the one that would have close ties to the local lab (as in Steffanini), not Mignini, who has stated that he usually works closely with the Military Police and their people. Napolitano would also be more likely to be the one with ties to the local jail, where they pulled the false AIDS stunt and the diaries were taken and released to the media.

Recall also that it was LE, not the Prosecutor's office, that did the media leaks, and it was primarily PLE, not Mignini, that stood to look like fools when their premature 'case closed' fell through so badly.

Really, if Mignini was told by PLE and their lab that they had solid, irrefutable evidence against AK & RS, who can blame him for believing them and proceeding full speed ahead with the case?


ETA: I should also note that the destroyed evidence (the three fried computers) were in the care of PLE as well, not the Prosecutor's office. And it was PLE that made the erroneous assertions regarding Cell Tower reception.
 
  • #1,649
Before we get carried away absolving Mignini, let's remember he's the one who has sued everyone who ever criticized him in any way. That's not the work of a humble man.
 
  • #1,650
Well to be fair... it only took miley stating it for you to change your 'understanding'.

There are no plea bargains.

Thank you, fred. You are absolutely right that Miley's info was unsourced and any change in my "understanding" would be premature. (Although at this point, I'm inclined to think Perugia LE is guilty until proven innocent.)

I accidentally deleted "If true" from my response to Miley while rewording it.
 
  • #1,651
Before we get carried away absolving Mignini, let's remember he's the one who has sued everyone who ever criticized him in any way. That's not the work of a humble man.

A humble prosecutor? That's a rarity. And I don't mean that in a bad way - quite the opposite, really. The great strength and weakness of prosecutors and investigators alike is a supreme self-confidence with regards to their actions and such on the job. These are soul-draining jobs that you don't last long at if you have too much self-doubt. Alas, that can lead to an inability to admit mistakes or withstand criticism, but for most it balances out for the better. All JMO, of course.

ETA: I should also add that Italy's defamation/slander laws are built for just such abuse, and that Italy's Justice System is over-run by such cases, so it's not like what Mignini is doing is anything unusual there. This is why the EU Human Rights Court has taken such issue with the above laws - they are like anti-whistle blower, pro-corruption laws the way they are written.
 
  • #1,652
Before we get carried away absolving Mignini, let's remember he's the one who has sued everyone who ever criticized him in any way. That's not the work of a humble man.
Well, yes, he does have his egoism and his faults. True.
 
  • #1,653
Well, yes, he does have his egoism and his faults. True.

Let's also not forget the 20 lives of upstanding citizens he nearly ruined by charging doctors, officers and government officials with his pet theory of body snatching, organ harvesting, and a cult conspiracy right out of a bad horror movie. Thank god for them the case was thrown out.
 
  • #1,654
Let's also not forget the 20 lives of upstanding citizens he nearly ruined by charging doctors, officers and government officials with his pet theory of body snatching, organ harvesting, and a cult conspiracy right out of a bad horror movie. Thank god for them the case was thrown out.
Ah-yep. I was just recalling that, too. :blushing: That adorable, hilarious, always-entertaining Giuliano Mignini!:laugh:
 
  • #1,655
Was thinking how we go round-n-round over this case (we are on page 67 of this thread!) and then I thought about the jury - meeting with lots of time between sessions - seems it would be difficult to keep things fresh and straight in their minds....
 
  • #1,656
She did? Literally? Why did she do that? Was she casting aspersions on the mop story?

yes, using giftwrap out of number 7's very own hallway closet. And look at this picture. They are carrying MK's mattress from her room to the livingroom. I assume this happened December 18th, when they also did the luminol testing. This is a guess, unless anyone knows if they went there AGAIN after the 18th. Otherwise, what's the odds that they changed their booties carrying that mattress from the murder room through RG's footprints and into the livingroom? I'd venture to guess they did not put the mattress down to change shoes.

And I wonder if the bra clasp was still on the floor or not at this point?

dec18return__25_.jpg
 
  • #1,657
I know no one likes Mr. Fisher being quoted, but he does run a major website re Knox, and I do read him. I hope his proclamations and exited utterances contained within a couple of excerpts from this lengthy July article are close to the truth of the matter.

This is not a true statement that no one like's fisher being quoted. For as long as I've only seen one, maybe two, people take offense to statements by fisher. Even if it's 4 people, that's certainly not the majority of people who not only post, but also silently read the thread. Please be careful not to let the opinons of just a few cast onto the rest. Quote Fisher, quote Hendry, quote dempsey, hell quote Barbie, I don't care. Just give me the information. Well...I'd rather not see a quote from wiki, but otherwise....

:crazy:
 
  • #1,658
This is not a true statement that no one like's fisher being quoted. For as long as I've only seen one, maybe two, people take offense to statements by fisher. Even if it's 4 people, that's certainly not the majority of people who not only post, but also silently read the thread. Please be careful not to let the opinons of just a few cast onto the rest. Quote Fisher, quote Hendry, quote dempsey, hell quote Barbie, I don't care. Just give me the information. Well...I'd rather not see a quote from wiki, but otherwise....

:crazy:
;) Okie.
 
  • #1,659
From my unscientific look at the bra clasp DNA...

You're funny. You remind me of myself, except I did what you are doing with crime scene scenerios. I wrote big long paragraphs about how I think the murder and burglary happened and you write long paragraphs about DNA probablities. But I like it. :crazy:


I look at it like this. The bra clasp was sitting around for 47 days. We don't know what they tracked in and out of that room with those booties. Seriously. Anyone could have gone in AK's room, then went in MK's room, and Rs's DNA fell off the booty. Hell if I know, but that's my first and number reason to rule it out.

1. sat on the floor too long and they did a very sloppy job protecting the crime scene.
2. They did low copy DNA testing on it. A technique her lab was not certified for.
3. She was analyzing mixed samples, something ELSE you have to take care and have certification for and she didn't.

Frankly, we can't know for certain what she found. It's all words on a page--HER page. Because it cannot be retested, we don't even know for real and seriously what the test results even were.

This comes from the lab of a woman swabbing more than one spot with the same swab, giftwrapping mops, leaving evidence laying around for 46 days, unable to tell starch is on a dirty knife, wrong about the vic's dna being on said knife, withholding TMB results, refusing to release fsa files...so do I even believe she found MK's dna on the clasp?

The ONLY reason I believe she found MK's DNA on the clasp is because it's MK's bra in MK's room, on MK's floor. Otherwise, I would not even believe Stephanoni about that. This is how much faith I DO NOT have in her work. I fear her zeal to please her boss might bite us all in the butt if RG starts rattling his own DNA cage, because if he didn't admit that it was his crap in the toilet, I MIGHT NOT believe Stephanoni on that, either.

Bottom line for me is you can't trust unrepeatable test results from an "expert" with a record like this on the SAME case.
 
  • #1,660
Very well laid out, w_m! I just have two comments:

1. I know you are trying to be fair to pro-guilt theories, but if AK and RS walked in on RG killing MK, I don't think their reaction would be "What a trauma! Let's wait until tomorrow to call LE." I think they would have been so hopped up on adrenaline that the natural reaction would have been to call LE immediately.

2. It's true the prosecution has no technical requirement to prove motive. But you're right about this case. Here, they are trying to assert motive to make up for the fact that they have little to no evidence of a group attack on MK.

They are playing a shell game, distracting the jury with lurid tales of motive to disguise their inability to prove that three people took part in the stabbing. (Or maybe it's two, now, with AK calling instructions from the other room in a language she didn't speak. Hard to keep track of Mignini's theories of the crime.)

You're absolutely right, except, I wasn't trying to be fair to them, I was just trying understand what they see that we don't see, but I can't see it.

None of them come in and give us a plausible scenerio, so I'm trying to find one on my own, because as of right now, it seems to me that it's noon time, I'm telling them the sun is out, but they are swearing that it's the moon. I don't know how it could even be more opposite, and I think it's very strange that we don't even share ANYTHING in common thought about the case. By "we" I mean the general innocenters' side versus the general guilters' side. Seems that looking at the exact same stuff at least ONE thing is going to be able to get some agreement, but the only ONE thing I can think of is at MK was murdered and RG was present.

How can that be? How can you at the exact same stuff and find no commonality? blows my mind.
 
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