Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[dgfred]

Yet again, you misdirect my original post into a fallacy. I never stated the media convicted the two, I clearly stated my believe it had an impact.

Off the top of my head these were all trumpted by the prosecution and were released by the media. All were false or grossly misleading to AK, RS, or PL.

Case closed-When PL was arrested.

PL had cell phone pings near MK's apartment during the time of death.

Claims of drug fueled sex orgy and ties to satan/black mass.

Release of bathroom covered in luminol to look like blood.

The sex lingerie spree.

Meredith Dies tonight text.

AK and RS cleaned up the crime scene.

RS called police after postal police arrived.

*Hey, AK told them Patrick had murdered Meredith.

*Anyone thinking the bathroom pic was in blood is 'not well' IMO.

*One pair of sexy bloomers, and kissing in the store just doesn't look good any way.

*Others were rumors or not relevant... not the fault of ILE. Non-sourced or 'anonymous persons in ILE' are just not valid sources IMO.

***Jurors and included Judges are charged with making their decisions based upon the evidence... not media reports. Saying they were unable to is what is misleading, they are perfectly competant to IMO.

 

[otto]

How does this make the theory mistaken? If the door needs a key to lock it, and all 4 had this key, including MK, and he was locked in, and later took the keys, how is Hendry's theory compromised???:waitasec:

I thought your post was that there was a fifth key in the door and Meredith removed it, thus trapping Guede in the cottage. There was no fifth key, and Guede could have exited the cottage the same way he entered the cottage ... presumably without a key - per that particular theory. The facts actually demonstrate that the break in was staged and that all three murderers entered through the front door of the cottage.

 

[Nova]

Regardless of what Hendry says regarding additional keys to the front door, a resident of the cottage has testified that there was no fifth key. Therefore, Hendry and his theory are mistaken.

Which defendant is claiming that Guede acted alone?

HENDRY'S THEORY DOES NOT DEPEND ON A FIFTH KEY!

Okay, I've skimmed over Hendry's material. I see no reference to a fifth key or any other key. Since his analysis is limited to interpreting forensic evidence, he merely shows why IHO the break-in was indeed a break-in, and then elsewhere details why he believes MK was killed by a lone assailant.

***

I have no idea what the defendants claim. Why would it matter, since the burden of proof isn't theirs?

 

[SMK]

What does "ad hominem attack" mean in the context of this discussion?

When you call people "groupies" that is "ad hominem'; against the man, literally, and not his theories.

 

[mdana]

Hahaha, your slip (aka agenda) is showing IMO. These seem to all be the old FOA 'talking points' you are using. Really, we have been thru all this before many times. Check out some of the old threads if you have some time.

Do you or do you believe that LE can get a coerced confession out of a witness? If you don't then there is nothing left to comment.

They do exist if you trust U.S. LE and local LE in my state are trying to limit the occurence. They have a negative effect, because investigations are inadvertantly closed when they should remain open. Criminals can continue raping, murdering, and thieving. Not to mention citizens are incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit impacting their circle of friends and family.

 

[Nova]

In fact, if you believe Guede then, per his 2010 statement introduced as evidence in court on Monday, Knox and Sollecito were the other people involved in the murder, not the brother of a mafia guy or any other stranger.

I only meant if you believe RG in some respects, but I should have been clearer. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[SMK]

I thought your post was that there was a fifth key in the door and Meredith removed it, thus trapping Guede in the cottage. There was no fifth key, and Guede could have exited the cottage the same way he entered the cottage ... presumably without a key - per that particular theory. The facts actually demonstrate that the break in was staged and that all three murderers entered through the front door of the cottage.

Noooooooooooo??? ?? :HHJP: why does it need to be a 5 th key? just the house key, which all 4 had, and MK had locked it and he was locked in :razz: :slap:

 

[Nova]

Well maybe 'credible', not that I believe RG... but it seems the defense teams don't think the jurors will believe it.

I don't think that's necessarily true, fred. I don't think defense attorneys can ethnically ignore testimony that is so exculpatory.

It may not have done them any good, but I think they had to bring it to the court's attention. It would have been malpractice to do otherwise.

 

[Nova]

What does "ad hominem attack" mean in the context of this discussion?

Referring to people as "groupies." The term implies unthinking, even fetishistic attachment to a personality, as opposed to having formed a reasoned point of view.

 

[Nova]

I got caught providing a direct quote from Knox's gift statement where she says that she stands behind her claims about Patrick? Okay.

What you did is by now clear to everyone. Whether you own it is up to you.

(To be fair, I am not saying you did anything the rest of us haven't done before. We've all tried to make square evidence fit into round holes.)

 

[Nova]

Noooooooooooo??? ?? :HHJP: why does it need to be a 5 th key? just the house key, which all 4 had, and MK had locked it and he was locked in :razz: :slap:

How many pages were wasted on a mythical fifth key?

This is what happens when there is a failure to deliberate.

 

[mdana]

About the sexual assault-

If I remember correctly, in the MOT it was considered attempted sexual assault. The coroner originally ruled sexual assault and then removed that finding. When Hellmann opened the trial the only thing he mentioned was the murder and not the attempted sexual assault. I thought a poster had previously stated the DNA found on MK's vaginal area was surface not semen or indictive of attempted sex. So that was what my previous post was about if it was unclear.

My question is does this sound correct and does anyone know if attempted sexual assault are part of the charges or have they been dropped?

 

[emyr]

For me, the key thing tips it to not being staged. But that's just me. For me, the key thing tips it because it is the last piece in a lot of pieces that swayed me.

Glass embedded in inside shutter, needing a key to unlock interior front door, the providing of images of a person climbing the wall, and being able to open the shutter, the fact that Rudy scaled a higher wall previously to break in, the fact that Rudy threw rocks through windows to break into other places, the fact that he seems pretty impulsive in how he does everything (leaving turds in bathrooms) and wasn't what I would call a "savvy burglar", so whether or not he broke in the most savvy way becomes a moot point. And the fact that I don't think the postal police or Filomena would remember the scene well enough to say for sure what the glass placement was. Without their testimony, glass in the room AFTER individuals have rifled through it is not an indication of anything.

That's where I stand at least.

 

[mdana]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Reading the whole statement, she sounds very confused to me, and to me it appears that she is saying she could be wrong and Lumamba should not be jailed on her word.

And, in this day and age, we know people give false confessions:
http://www.injusticebusters.com/04/False_confession2.shtml

This is one of the least damaging false confessions I've ever seen. I call it false, because clearly what she says happened with Lumamba did not happen.

If I was on the jury, the items that would have caused me to convict would have been the bra clasp, and the luminol footprints.

They are more like foot markings. I try not to use the term of footprints, because too many assume they are as easy to identify as fingerprints when that is not the case. I have a huge problem with the identification of exactly whose footmark that actually is.

The bra clasp is much more troubling. I think it might have been cross-contaminated, but it is most likely the biggest concern to me.

Too many doubts for me to convict, because it is basically the bra clasp in favor of the prosecution. Yet, the way they handled the case from the postal police butchering the initial crime scene, the way the forensics team handled evidence, the frying of RS hard drives, the lack of videotaping of the "confessions", and the 43 day wait to "discover" the RS DNA on said bra clasp, I have too many concerns. If the defense and prosecution have relatively equal holes in their presentations, you have to acquit in my view. YMMV.

To me the LE and prosecution's behaviour has been much more suspect than the accused's.

 

[otto]

HENDRY'S THEORY DOES NOT DEPEND ON A FIFTH KEY!

Okay, I've skimmed over Hendry's material. I see no reference to a fifth key or any other key. Since his analysis is limited to interpreting forensic evidence, he merely shows why IHO the break-in was indeed a break-in, and then elsewhere details why he believes MK was killed by a lone assailant.

***

I have no idea what the defendants claim. Why would it matter, since the burden of proof isn't theirs?

Hendry is really on a tangent and disconnected with the defense theory and trial evidence because no one associated with the case claims that one person committed the murder alone. We heard more than a week ago that the defense theory is that Guede acted with one or more other parties. Guede agrees that others were involved and Monday, in court, he confirmed what he had said earlier: Knox and Sollecito were involved in the murder.

 

[Nova]

For me, the key thing tips it to not being staged. But that's just me. For me, the key thing tips it because it is the last piece in a lot of pieces that swayed me.

Glass embedded in inside shutter, needing a key to unlock interior front door, the providing of images of a person climbing the wall, and being able to open the shutter, the fact that Rudy scaled a higher wall previously to break in, the fact that Rudy threw rocks through windows to break into other places, the fact that he seems pretty impulsive in how he does everything (leaving turds in bathrooms) and wasn't what I would call a "savvy burglar", so whether or not he broke in the most savvy way becomes a moot point. And the fact that I don't think the postal police or Filomena would remember the scene well enough to say for sure what the glass placement was. Without their testimony, glass in the room AFTER individuals have rifled through it is not an indication of anything.

That's where I stand at least.

Good summary. And to answer another poster's objection, I think it's a rare "second-story man" who goes back out the way he came in. Unless there's a very convenient fire escape, I think all such intruders expect to go out the front door.

 

[SMK]

Hendry is really on a tangent and disconnected with the defense theory and trial evidence because no one associated with the case claims that one person committed the murder alone. We heard more than a week ago that the defense theory is that Guede acted with one or more other parties. Guede agrees that others were involved and Monday, in court, he confirmed what he had said earlier: Knox and Sollecito were involved in the murder.

1. I always felt that involving the 5 inmates was stupid, stupid, stupid, because it negated Hendry's marvelously simple genius of the Guede-Lone-Wolf scenario, and opened the door to "more than one killer"
2. Why do you believe that lying, raping, Meredith-violating Guede????

 

[Nova]

They are more like foot markings. I try not to use the term of footprints, because too many assume they are as easy to identify as fingerprints when that is not the case. I have a huge problem with the identification of exactly whose footmark that actually is.

The bra clasp is much more troubling. I think it might have been cross-contaminated, but it is most likely the biggest concern to me.

Too many doubts for me to convict, because it is basically the bra clasp in favor of the prosecution. Yet, the way they handled the case from the postal police butchering the initial crime scene, the way the forensics team handled evidence, the frying of RS hard drives, the lack of videotaping of the "confessions", and the 43 day wait to "discover" the RS DNA on said bra clasp, I have too many concerns. If the defense and prosecution have relatively equal holes in their presentations, you have to acquit in my view. YMMV.

To me the LE and prosecution's behaviour has been much more suspect than the accused's.

I understand why the bra clasp is troubling, but I don't see how we can trust it as evidence, given all the collection problems. I'll even go so far as to say I have to wonder about deliberate contamination (i.e., planted evidence), given that it is the ONLY piece of evidence that puts RS in the murder room.

I think ILE was pretty desperate by the time they found it. (And let's not forget they allowed the "accidental" discovery to be filmed on international internet video.)

 

[SMK]

About the sexual assault-

If I remember correctly, in the MOT it was considered attempted sexual assault. The coroner originally ruled sexual assault and then removed that finding. When Hellmann opened the trial the only thing he mentioned was the murder and not the attempted sexual assault. I thought a poster had previously stated the DNA found on MK's vaginal area was surface not semen or indictive of attempted sex. So that was what my previous post was about if it was unclear.

My question is does this sound correct and does anyone know if attempted sexual assault are part of the charges or have they been dropped?

Not clear on this, to tell you the truth, as I do not like reading Massei report (once was enough). I do know that Guede's DNA showed sexual contact, whereas RS and AK left none. Thus, Guede's contention that sex was consensual, which is hard to believe.

 

[Nova]

Hendry is really on a tangent and disconnected with the defense theory and trial evidence because no one associated with the case claims that one person committed the murder alone. We heard more than a week ago that the defense theory is that Guede acted with one or more other parties. Guede agrees that others were involved and Monday, in court, he confirmed what he had said earlier: Knox and Sollecito were involved in the murder.

1. You claim not to have read Hendry.

2. The defense asked that people claiming to have relevant evidence be heard. That does not, in an of itself, make a "theory."

3. A criminal trial is not a battle of one theory v. another anyway.

4. Guede's claims of a second party were always obviously self-serving and not to be taken at face value.

5. The defense was interested in reputed remarks by RG that AK and RS were not involved, not whether RG's claims were true in toto.

6. RG said what ILE wanted him to say. I'm shocked!