Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[miley]

haha lol at woo and prejudice jane austen reference!
im with you nova, have no idea what it means.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, I read that there was blood on the light switch and on the bed or the duvet downstairs. I also read there were wet flipflops down there, too. And that one room was in dissary. Now I wonder if it were GS's room....? I don't know, but if it was his room, it's uncanny that his room is the one messed up and his girl is that one that's dead, and it could "possibly" be his semen on the pillow. Just as uncanny is how RG makes himself out to be MK's love interest, but ignores her relationship with GS that RG had to know about, right?

Now, I can't find any credible sources that repeat that information, just hearsay from IIP, as far as I know, but that's all I know about it, and I don't recal the boys sayin anything was missing.

I cannot help but think those tissues and the downstairs condition are related. Hell, even the darn toilet bomb (the real threat, not RG's toilet bomb) had to have something to do with it. It's really uncanny that the toilet bomb threat happened at the house where the phones were found.

Answers I guess we'll never have.

 

[emyr]

Yeah, I read that there was blood on the light switch and on the bed or the duvet downstairs. I also read there were wet flipflops down there, too. And that one room was in dissary. Now I wonder if it were GS's room....? I don't know, but if it was his room, it's uncanny that his room is the one messed up and his girl is that one that's dead, and it could "possibly" be his semen on the pillow. Just as uncanny is how RG makes himself out to be MK's love interest, but ignores her relationship with GS that RG had to know about, right?

Now, I can't find any credible sources that repeat that information, just hearsay from IIP, as far as I know, but that's all I know about it, and I don't recal the boys sayin anything was missing.

I cannot help but think those tissues and the downstairs condition are related. Hell, even the darn toilet bomb (the real threat, not RG's toilet bomb) had to have something to do with it. It's really uncanny that the toilet bomb threat happened at the house where the phones were found.

Answers I guess we'll never have.

Yeah, I'm often surprised at how un-thorough investigations are. I would have tracked who made that toilet bomb threat. I would also have gotten the entire Anthony families phone records from March thru December. Just to make sure I have a complete, comprehensive picture.

Law Enforcement everywhere has limited time and resources and that's important to remember. (Things can, and do, fall through the cracks all the time).

 

[miley]

yeah, it seems like it was his room that was all messed up -
i dont remember the flip flops... didnt she send him a text
saying miss you or cant wait to see you ...and he replied
with .. can you get my clothes off the line?
something sort of inconsiderate and along those lines but im
not sure where i read it

... now that i know theres a cover up
going on, i wonder more about that prank call too lol.

 

[SMK]

Yeah, I read that there was blood on the light switch and on the bed or the duvet downstairs. I also read there were wet flipflops down there, too. And that one room was in dissary. Now I wonder if it were GS's room....? I don't know, but if it was his room, it's uncanny that his room is the one messed up and his girl is that one that's dead, and it could "possibly" be his semen on the pillow. Just as uncanny is how RG makes himself out to be MK's love interest, but ignores her relationship with GS that RG had to know about, right?

Now, I can't find any credible sources that repeat that information, just hearsay from IIP, as far as I know, but that's all I know about it, and I don't recal the boys sayin anything was missing.

I cannot help but think those tissues and the downstairs condition are related. Hell, even the darn toilet bomb (the real threat, not RG's toilet bomb) had to have something to do with it. It's really uncanny that the toilet bomb threat happened at the house where the phones were found.

Answers I guess we'll never have.

I always thought this post RE Rudy downstairs was interesting from IIP, entitled, "The Cat and the Cat Burglar":


http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/the-cat-and-the-cat-burglar-t935.html

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, that's where I saw the flipflop reference, I think, SMK.

- Cat blood was found on and/or by a downstairs light switch (or switches?). Once again a bit fuzzy on the exact details.
- Cat blood was found in other parts of the the downstairs flat.
- The downstairs cat had an ear infection which had been bleeding occasionally.
- Bloody tissue papers were found outside the cottage (apparently treated as unimportant by the police)
- Some flip-flop shoes of one of the boys downstairs were found wet after the weekend.

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.o...glar-t935.html

I do not know where this get this information about the search of the downstairs apartment. I guess i'll go back to the mot report, because I didnt even know it has that bit about the glass piece in MK's room in there. I guess I get wary of the Mot report after a while because it's only like 50% useful. The parts that contain facts are useful. All the conjecture....I can do without....

What other trials are there to get into while we wait?

You know, I signed up here because of Jodi Arias and I believe while I was waiting for her trial, I went onto the murder of poor Alicia debolt. Things slowed down on that trial, so I tipped on over to AK and RS. This Jodi Arias trial just keeps getting delayed and delayed.

 

[wasnt_me]

I recall one of the newbies being very interested in RG's DNA in the small bathroom. Though I don't know anything about it, it's possible RG was one of those that didn't sweat or shed off cells easily. I'd read about that somewhere else, so I'd have to get you more information. I am NOT a DNA guru. but here's what the MOTR said was found in that bathroom.

[198] In the small bathroom, three traces of the victim's blood were found on the bathmat; on the light switch plate with two switches there were traces "of diluted blood, blood presumably mixed with water, as it was pale pink in colour" (page 76) which also came from the victim; a sample was taken from the front part of the faucet of the sink, which yielded the genetic profile of Amanda Knox; another sample taken from a specimen visible to the naked eye on the edge of the drain of the bidet yielded the genetic profiles of the victim and of Knox, a genetic mixture also found on the box of cotton buds near the sink.
The drippings found inside the sink appeared to be diluted blood, pink in colour, proven by testing to be human blood and yielding the genetic mixture of the victim and Knox.
On the toilet cover there was a bloody substance which yielded the genetic profile of the victim; this was also found on the door-frame. Near the toilet flush was another stain presumed to be blood, but which ended up yielding a negative result.

Page 192-193?

 

[wasnt_me]

Nova, here's what we wanted to know:

In Filomena Romanelli's room a few items were tested: a hairlike fibre [formazione pilifera] on the lower part of the window frame, and a presumed haematological substance on the wooden part of the window which held the broken pane. Both of these items yielded negative results on analysis. During the second search, on the suggestion of the defence’s technical consultant Professor Saverio Potenza, the large rock and two fragments found on the floor of the room were tested, but they yielded negative results.

MOTR: pg 193

They said it yielded neg results, but I want to know exactly what that means and I want the substance, ALL "substances" for that matter, retested.

 

[wasnt_me]

Okay, what the heck is this?

Also in the MOTR on page 193-194

On the floor of the corridor of the flat (the corridor going from the small bathroom to the living room-kitchen corner), some samples were taken of bloody spots nearly circular in form, which were identified as the blood of the victim.
She then explained the results obtained from the Luminol tests, stating that "this test was performed during the second search, at the end of all the other activities, on the floor of the following areas: Filomena Romanelli's room, Amanda Knox's room, the corridor, the living room-kitchen corner and the larger bathroom" (p. 83 of the transcripts). She pointed out that on the basis of this test, she could not say with certainty that blood was present, since other substances as well may cause Luminol
to glow.

What is this blood or not blood pattern that's in a circular form? Anyone have pictures of it? It sounds like Steph is dismissing it as not being blood (from the wording of the quote), however she didn't see fit to do that about the so-called "bloody footprints" in the same corridor.

 

[wasnt_me]

Page 199 MOTR deals with Stephanoni discussing her techniques.

Aside from the fact that one previous pages, the judge has noted that the bra clasp, the jacket, the purse, which were photographed on November 1st, were found in different spots when her team returned on December 18th.

Anyways, aside from this, she discusses that her lab is not ISO 9001 or ISO 17025 certified, though she said she thinks they've applied (Wonder if they have them now? Might sit bettte with Hellmann if they FINALLY got the certifications...) If they didn't get them yet--why not? What's the hold up? It's been 3 1/2 years.

She recalled that under the back, there was a pillow and a red floor, ‚completely covered with blood, with lots of locks of hair.‛ The little piece of fabric with the clasp had been found at night, around 2 AM on November 3, according to what emerged from the video of that inspection. The clasp was immediately brought to her attention and photographed. It wasn’t however, catalogued during the course of that first search, because, although important, being a missing piece of the bra, there was the fact that ‚however we had taken the entire bra‛ (page 121); furthermore, just like the small piece [of bra], other objects like the handbag and the sweatshirt were left behind and which, catalogued during the second inspection on December 18, yielded results. The small piece of bra in question was repositioned where it had been found and in other words, on the floor, on top of which the pillow was found, on which the lifeless body of Meredith had been placed.
During the second search, the December 18, 2007 one, this small piece of bra with hooks was found in another area of the room, near the desk, under a little rug, and around one metre or one and a half meters from where it had been seen during the first search. She wasn’t able to tell the reason or the manner in which it had been moved./QUOTE]

During the inspection of November 2-3 they had gloves. There were about 10 people but they were not all present in the room at the same time. It was possible to move from one room to the other with the same shoe covers but it wasn’t necessary to do so. There was however, and necessarily, ‚one person passing the bags, another passing the test tubes, another passing the paper used for swabbing, in other words, we weren’t able to gather the findings and leave the bags with the findings on that floor [209] therefore it’s obvious that there were at least some people who went down the hallway and who reached the threshold of the exit‛ (page 127).

Seriously? Is she seriously saying that because evidence bags didn't touch the floor, it was okay to go from room to room without footies? Didn't I just find a statement for you in the last posts where she said that some of the footprints on the floor and substances from the floor were found from other rooms? If I didn't put in the previous posts, I'll got find it. Anyways....

This is what Judge Massei interpretes as her statement regarding transferrence. I don't get it because sounds like she's saying you can't get DNA from dead skin cells. If that's true, how the heck long does it take them to die, because I hear all the time of DNA being found years after the crime. So can someone clarify this?

She clarified in this regard, the concept of exfoliated cells, of which she had spoken about and had also explained in the report. She emphasised therefore, that the exfoliated cells which she was referring to are not the skin cells ‚that come off naturally from the skin because they are dead cells‛ (page 133) that are shed continuously, without any rubbing. She stressed that it’s not even possible to extract DNA from those cells, because the nucleus is practically dead; they are keratinized cells. She further clarified her explanation by adding that the case of cells that, due to the position in which they were found on a finding, may lead one to believe a friction occurred is different; cells that are found in the layers underneath the *skin’s+ barrier, if you will, made up of dead cells.

 

[wasnt_me]

of the rug the bra clasp was found rolled up in:

and under
203
this small rug, during the December 18 search, the small piece of bra with hooks was found, as well as the sock. This small rug hadn’t been analysed and one could see a few traces that perhaps were of a blood-derived nature. She added that it was not judged necessary to analyse the small rug because, although appearing soiled by a substance that was presumably blood, it was in an area where there was an ‚enormous streak of blood‛ and so it was natural that it was soiled by the blood of the victim, without it taking on any particular meaning.

So what if RG had cut his hand and had fallen, hand first onto the rug? Guess we'll never know.

 

[wasnt_me]

:cake4u::bdsong::bdscroll: :fireworks2:


Happy Belated for Amanda Knox!

 

[emyr]

This is what Judge Massei interpretes as her statement regarding transferrence. I don't get it because sounds like she's saying you can't get DNA from dead skin cells. If that's true, how the heck long does it take them to die, because I hear all the time of DNA being found years after the crime. So can someone clarify this?

I think she's saying that DNA is only found from the action of the rubbing off of live cells onto something (your skin rubbing against your shirt collar, your finger placed on the wall). Shed cells from your body aren't likely to register DNA.

However, I read something on the DNA testing site where they talked about the fact that some people are super DNA shedders and others are poor DNA shedders. Maybe they meant, some people can touch a wall for 5 minutes and you'll get a lot of DNA, and others can do the same thing and you'll get none.

So her point is, that if there was contamination, it had to be the result of sollecito's Dna being rubbed onto something, and then that DNA being rubbed on the clasp. (not transferred airborne).

She pointed out that Sollecito's DNA on his cigarette butt had not transferred to any other cigarette butts in the ash tray.

Also, they thought this was unlikely because his DNA signature was in far greater quantities than all the other DNA.

It was a pretty convincing argument.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, but about that cigarette

If the cigarettes just sat there in their own space with no movement or jarring, it's quite logical that there will be no DNA transferrance.

The only way to transfer the dna that I can see would be rubbing the two butts of smoked or used cigarettes together. So while her example is cute, me being a smoker, I can attest to the fact that I've seen plenty of ash trays. And unless people are not regularly emptying it and butts pile up, like a party, or just ove time, there's no reason for the butts to just be moving around and touching each other. From what ive seen smokers are careful not to touch other cigarettes when putting their out, because they don't want spit or ashes on their fingers. That's just usually what I've observed. I'm sure there's also sloppy smokers or smokers who don't think abou that out there, too.

But what I didn't get was her saying dead skin cells do not yield DNA. So I'm wondering how did she say there were shed skin cells on the bra clasp and she got RS's dna 47 days after the crime? I would assume the skin cells died after 47 days. I mean, I don't understand. It's puzzling. I had no idea skin had to be alive to yield DNA. what is all the other DNA coming from then? Like GS's DNA?

I saw that about shedders. And I attribute that to the reason that AK's DNA was on the knife. I think RS was constantly touching her, and he then started cooking. They probably used the knife to cut bread, wiped the blade with a dry rag and stuck it in the drawer without even cleaning the handle at all. I do stuff like that all time.

For instance, say I need to cut some plastic off some food ite in the kitchen. I might grab a knife, slice it across and then put the knife back without even wiping it, because as far as i'm concerned, it just touched plastic for like two seconds. That doesn't constitute making dish water. or I'm lazy.:innocent:

So when someone isn't a high shedder, if they touch someone else that might be a greater shedder, that other person's dna becomes more prevalent, even on their own hand, AND that other person's DNA can then get on other stuff through transferrence. Whatever I read on that made it sound quite easy. As easy as dust flying around or hairs transferring onto things.

 

[emyr]

Yeah, but about that cigarette

If the cigarettes just sat there in their own space with no movement or jarring, it's quite logical that there will be no DNA transferrance.

The only way to transfer the dna that I can see would be rubbing the two butts of smoked or used cigarettes together. So while her example is cute, me being a smoker, I can attest to the fact that I've seen plenty of ash trays. And unless people are not regularly emptying it and butts pile up, like a party, or just ove time, there's no reason for the butts to just be moving around and touching each other. From what ive seen smokers are careful not to touch other cigarettes when putting their out, because they don't want spit or ashes on their fingers. That's just usually what I've observed. I'm sure there's also sloppy smokers or smokers who don't think abou that out there, too.

But what I didn't get was her saying dead skin cells do not yield DNA. So I'm wondering how did she say there were shed skin cells on the bra clasp and she got RS's dna 47 days after the crime? I would assume the skin cells died after 47 days. I mean, I don't understand. It's puzzling. I had no idea skin had to be alive to yield DNA. what is all the other DNA coming from then? Like GS's DNA?

I saw that about shedders. And I attribute that to the reason that AK's DNA was on the knife. I think RS was constantly touching her, and he then started cooking. They probably used the knife to cut bread, wiped the blade with a dry rag and stuck it in the drawer without even cleaning the handle at all. I do stuff like that all time.

For instance, say I need to cut some plastic off some food ite in the kitchen. I might grab a knife, slice it across and then put the knife back without even wiping it, because as far as i'm concerned, it just touched plastic for like two seconds. That doesn't constitute making dish water. or I'm lazy.:innocent:

So when someone isn't a high shedder, if they touch someone else that might be a greater shedder, that other person's dna becomes more prevalent, even on their own hand, AND that other person's DNA can then get on other stuff through transferrence. Whatever I read on that made it sound quite easy. As easy as dust flying around or hairs transferring onto things.

I apologize for this link:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...iDaDNI&sig=AHIEtbQtwQukezTOrT9OtxIRp0kXv2I7CQ

You can google "use of low copy number" and murray and probably bring it up.

It states that a low shedder who shook the hand of a high shedder and then the low shedder touched a straw for 10 minutes, left only the DNA of the high shedder 5 times out of 10 times tested.

So you could make the case that someone wearing gloves, who touched DNA of a subject, could then transfer that DNA onto the clasp. Hence... only use disposable tongs to touch evidence.

I think (this has a 10% chance of being recalled correctly) that when cells naturally exfoliate, their internal nucleas is consumed, making them unreadable. But hen the cells are rubbed off, the whole system dies, leaving the nucleas preserved to be readable. Or something along those lines. Wait.. maybe it is that the skin is generated around the nucleus, and the skin peels away, leaving nucleii attached.. anyway, the end result, I think, is that shed skin does not have nucleii in it to be tested. But "live" skin does.

EDITED TO ADD: Whatever the reason is, it's the same reason why they don't like to use hair for DNA. You need the bulb of the hair, but the shaft is almost useless. (only can get mtdna from it).

 

[SMK]

:cake4u::bdsong::bdscroll: :fireworks2:


Happy Belated for Amanda Knox!

Supporters gather to send Amanda Knox birthday wishes

Friday night's benefit concert and silent auction coincided with the former University of Washington student's birthday, which is Saturday. The festivities included three bands with ties to Seattle Prep, Amanda's alma mater, and featured a birthday cake.
"You know, I don't have a million dollar check that I can write to get them whole," said organizer Brian DiJulio, who was also performing with his band, "but you know, maybe this will help a little bit."
It's just the latest in a series of impromptu fund-raisers for Amanda's Defense Fund. But with the family racking up close to a million dollars for lawyers, for travel, for independent experts, according to those close to the family, impromptu fundraisers make all the difference.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43694865/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

 

[Allusonz]

GS, the boyfriend's fingerprints were still in MK's room. Enough said about a dang on clean up.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

You are simply too funny!! There was no way that they could only clean up their invisible DNA from that room as I wonder about all the other DNA they could not attribute to people

What was that song ... oh right apologize

 

[Allusonz]

Page 199 MOTR deals with Stephanoni discussing her techniques.

Aside from the fact that one previous pages, the judge has noted that the bra clasp, the jacket, the purse, which were photographed on November 1st, were found in different spots when her team returned on December 18th.

Anyways, aside from this, she discusses that her lab is not ISO 9001 or ISO 17025 certified, though she said she thinks they've applied (Wonder if they have them now? Might sit bettte with Hellmann if they FINALLY got the certifications...) If they didn't get them yet--why not? What's the hold up? It's been 3 1/2 years.

She recalled that under the back, there was a pillow and a red floor, ‚completely covered with blood, with lots of locks of hair.‛ The little piece of fabric with the clasp had been found at night, around 2 AM on November 3, according to what emerged from the video of that inspection. The clasp was immediately brought to her attention and photographed. It wasn’t however, catalogued during the course of that first search, because, although important, being a missing piece of the bra, there was the fact that ‚however we had taken the entire bra‛ (page 121); furthermore, just like the small piece [of bra], other objects like the handbag and the sweatshirt were left behind and which, catalogued during the second inspection on December 18, yielded results. The small piece of bra in question was repositioned where it had been found and in other words, on the floor, on top of which the pillow was found, on which the lifeless body of Meredith had been placed.
During the second search, the December 18, 2007 one, this small piece of bra with hooks was found in another area of the room, near the desk, under a little rug, and around one metre or one and a half meters from where it had been seen during the first search. She wasn’t able to tell the reason or the manner in which it had been moved./QUOTE]



Seriously? Is she seriously saying that because evidence bags didn't touch the floor, it was okay to go from room to room without footies? Didn't I just find a statement for you in the last posts where she said that some of the footprints on the floor and substances from the floor were found from other rooms? If I didn't put in the previous posts, I'll got find it. Anyways....

This is what Judge Massei interpretes as her statement regarding transferrence. I don't get it because sounds like she's saying you can't get DNA from dead skin cells. If that's true, how the heck long does it take them to die, because I hear all the time of DNA being found years after the crime. So can someone clarify this?

I believe she is also saying even though we have seen videos to the contrary that only a limited number of people were in the room to avoid contamination of the crime scene. Shakes head again

 

[Allusonz]

Too many errors, the "scientific" under fire

A pretty scathing report

Google translate all

"And the ex-general Luciano Garofano, head of the long-Ris di Parma, admits the cultural lag: "The police has made leaps and bounds in technology in the inspection and laboratory tests, but much remains to be done. At the crime scene should go only pure specialists that we have not. "

In short, judges have too much and am confident in the investigation of laboratory tests. And the so-called comparative (the advice of expert witnesses) rather than to build alternative tests are aimed at "dismantling" incontrovertible certainties held by the prosecution. Do not need to find the culprit, but at least, and not just, can prevent an innocent person ends up in prison. Pm and persistence of allowing judges."

http://translate.google.com/transla.../articolo-id=534152-page=0-comments=1&act=url

 

[Allusonz]

I was reviewing the appeal for AK again, and it just struck me. Stephani seems to have done all the friggin work. She collected it, she bagged it, she tested it, she interpreted it. That's wild.

Yup she received special permission to collect the forensics. Normally the one that performs the testing does not collect it as well to prevent testing bias. Of which we now took place according to the experts report