Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[otto]

Yes, it is possible, at least, that both Knox and Anthony were raised in a way which turned them into selfish little liars and narcissists. The PMF quotes are striking in their similarity.

But for some reason I find myself wondering if Knox might really have been misinterpreted. I wish I could see some real proof that she was involved. With Casey Antony, it is easy to infer guilt. With Knox, I have doubts. And those doubts are unsettling. Or is that the PR machine at work?

I think that one of the reasons I keep following this case is because there is a very small part of me that wonders if such a calamity of unhappy coincidences could befall an innocent person such that they end up convicted of murder. Ms Anthony had a similar unhappy set of coincidences and look at her ... not guilty of murder. Perhaps the public is waiting for the same unhappy set of coincidences to be similarly overlooked in the conviction of Knox and Sollecito.

 

[Malkmus]

I believe that, according to the Motivation Summary, the time is 9:10 (ref: pg 302) and it is stated that this time corresponds to a movie ending and not any human interaction with the computer. That is, there are no keystrokes recorded at that time.

Actually, what happened is that Knox, of sound mind, falsely accused an innocent person of murder (not confessed to a crime) after two hours. This really has nothing to do with "false confessions".

When you brought this up back in February I mentioned Karl Fontenot, but never got a response from you, so I'm reminding you now about it.

Karl Fontenot. Twenty years old, not mentally ill, confessed after only two hours. What I got wrong back then was that Fontenot didn't actually confess to murdering the girl in question. He and his friend Tommy Ward confessed to raping the girl with a third man but that this third man orchestrated the rape and was the one who killed her. Police arrested the (innocent) man accused of orchestrating the rape and murder but found out quickly that it wasn't possible for him to have done any of it. They let him go, but focused on the two young men who had "confessed". Eventually the body of the girl was found and it was discovered she died from a gunshot wound to the head. Basically the two men had confessed to several things that were later proven to have never happened (including the burning of a house).

Amanda Knox. Twenty years old, not mentally ill, confessed after only two (maybe three) hours. Like Karl, she implicated herself saying she was at the scene, but did not commit the murder. Like Karl, the man she implicated was innocent, but had a clear alibi. Like Karl, she confessed to a police theory of what happened that was later revealed to not be true.

All of this is detailed in the book Dreams of Ada.

 

[otto]

When you brought this up back in February I mentioned Karl Fontenot, but never got a response from you, so I'm reminding you now about it.

Karl Fontenot. Twenty years old, not mentally ill, confessed after only two hours. What I got wrong back then was that Fontenot didn't actually confess to murdering the girl in question. He and his friend Tommy Ward confessed to raping the girl with a third man but that this third man orchestrated the rape and was the one who killed her. Police arrested the (innocent) man accused of orchestrating the rape and murder but found out quickly that it wasn't possible for him to have done any of it. They let him go, but focused on the two young men who had "confessed". Eventually the body of the girl was found and it was discovered she died from a gunshot wound to the head. Basically the two men had confessed to several things that were later proven to have never happened (including the burning of a house).

Amanda Knox. Twenty years old, not mentally ill, confessed after only two (maybe three) hours. Like Karl, she implicated herself saying she was at the scene, but did not commit the murder. Like Karl, the man she implicated was innocent, but had a clear alibi. Like Karl, she confessed to a police theory of what happened that was later revealed to not be true.

All of this is detailed in the book Dreams of Ada.

I must have missed the post ... thanks for bringing me up to speed.

But ... Knox didn't confess to anything.

Do you think she might have been stoned when she told police that Patrick murdered Meredith - lost between dream and reality?

 

[Malkmus]

I must have missed the post ... thanks for bringing me up to speed?

But ... Knox didn't confess to anything.

She confessed to being at at the scene of a crime, hence why she was arrested.

 

[otto]

She confessed to being at at the scene of a crime, hence why she was arrested.

She accused Patrick of being at the scene and committing murder. She added that she was standing in the kitchen when she heard a terrible scream, so she covered her ears and said nothing. We know she said nothing when Patrick was arrested, so it's doesn't take much to believe that she also said nothing when she heard Meredith scream. A woman across the street also reported a scream.

Given that her accusations against Patrick resulted in her inadvertently placing herself at the scene at the time of the murder, her status was changed from witness to suspect. Keep in mind that Knox fully expected to be released after accusing Patrick of murder (a la CSI TV procedures) - even Ms Dempsey explains this in her novel about Knox.

 

[emyr]

I think that one of the reasons I keep following this case is because there is a very small part of me that wonders if such a calamity of unhappy coincidences could befall an innocent person such that they end up convicted of murder. Ms Anthony had a similar unhappy set of coincidences and look at her ... not guilty of murder. Perhaps the public is waiting for the same unhappy set of coincidences to be similarly overlooked in the conviction of Knox and Sollecito.

I have to say, I see no explanation for the fact that Casey is clearly the guardian of Caylee, she was clearly with her the day she disappeared, she is videotaped at 7:30 the day Caylee disappeared renting movies from a Blockbuster. Her daughter clearly died that day and whatever it was that happened, she did not reach out for help. She did not say anything about the crime for 30 days. She never provided a rational explanation including the date of trial.

She is guilty of manslaughter, in that she is the responsible party for Caylee, Caylee died and she did not get medical attention after she died. Ergo, Casey Anthony is guilty of child abuse (not providing proper care to a child), resutling in, at minimum, manslaughter. If her daughter drowned by accident, suffocated in a hot car, and had been dead for two hours, and Casey did not take her immediately to the hospital anyway, both are extreme neligence and manslaughter. (in my book). That is beyond a reasonable doubt for me.

There is no similarity in unhappy coincidences. Amanda reported the murder within 16 hours of when the murder took place. Amanda was not Meredith's mother. Amanda was not placed by eyewitnesses with the victim. Amanda did not steal other people's credit cards, checking accounts, etc.

A similar unhappy set of coincidences would be more like this guy:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann

 

[otto]

Women that are victims of childhood sexual abuse attack, or murder, their abuser, not their children. Men might perpetrate the crime and abuse their children, but they don't murder them ... not their own children.

At the very least, she is guilty of manslaughter in that even if she was standing in the next room with her fingers in her ears and mute, she was complicit.

Knox made the same complaints about her arrest and incarceration as Ms Anthony. They have similar unhappy circumstances in that they found themselves trying to help the police and getting it all wrong, or trying to present facts and getting that all wrong too (although Ms Anthony certainly had time on her side), or spinning a wib with verbal dia...

Knox only reported the crime after a couple of hours of mucking about in the crime scene, taking off for a while, having brunch with the boyfriend and a mop before mentioning the crime scene, the boyfriend recommending that Knox phone another roommate (like how they tag team after this), there's a couple of short calls to the victim and then a discussion with another roommate - the only other one that is in town.

It is a bit of an unhappiness of circumstance that they, two innocents, Casey and Amanda, were both accused of murder and they're both innocent for the same reasons ... the police bullied them, told them that they would pin the murder on them and they'd spend the rest of their lives or 30 years in jail.

 

[otto]

She confessed to being at at the scene of a crime, hence why she was arrested.

Knox did not confess to being at the scene of the crime. She accused Patrick of murdering her roommate while she stood in the next room with her fingers in her ears. The scream was heard by neighbors and Knox agreed that she had her fingers in her ears to cover the scream.

Her status was changed from that of witness to that of suspect because she inadvertently gave information that was corrobotated by other ear witnesses. Knox did it again when she said that Meredith "f-ing" bled to death before the coroner had announced the cause of death.

 

[wasnt_me]

I am feeling uncertain. Is that above video fake? The forensic team is acting in such a Barney Fife manner I feel it must be fake. Did I just post something fake?

It's not fake. It's been posted in these threads many, many times before. As for stephanoni, she additionally refused at least three times to give up the very files that the experts analyzed, so that no one will know that she lied about being "subject centric. but I don't see how that makes yu conclude the DNA is on the clasp. If she had my DNA, for example, she could have matched peaks and ignored others to come up with a partial match for me, as well. If you have the picture of what you're supposed to match, it's a whole lot easier to come up with a similiar result. Additionally, they collected the clasp on live internet stream. Why do that and it then it just so happens that you discover the only "solid" forsenic evidence against RS? That is no coincidence, I'm sorry. And I think i heard it happened right after they dismissed the footprint in the room as being RS's. So they needed something against him and they manufacturered results. That's just what I believe.

 

[wasnt_me]

Is this the RG DNA supposedly found inside MK? Because if it doesn't actually belong to RG, that means the murder may have been much simpler than we've imagined.

I don't know, because why were her pants off?

 

[otto]

I don't know, because why were her pants off?

She was fatally stabbed before her underwear was removed ... we know this because the blood spatter from her neck wound was on her bra.

Therefore, her pants were removed after she was fatally stabbed, and the subsequent staging of the victim's clothes corresponded with the staging of the break in. There is also the still unanswered question about whether her blood coagulated on her shoulder or her back ... making the question about whether she was rolled onto her back even more interesting.

 

[wasnt_me]

So you are saying Amanda Knox and Casey Anthony are of the same type. What links them, in your mind? Narcissism?

I'm not clear why Casey anthony is on this thread, but she was found inncoent. You are talking about this with Otto, who has said time and time again that the juries and judges know what they are doing. So if they reach a verdict, then it is right and true. He has said that time and time again with respect to AK and RS, so let it be the same with CA, and let's get back to the trial that is the title of this thread, please.

 

[otto]

It's not fake. It's been posted in these threads many, many times before. As for stephanoni, she additionally refused at least three times to give up the very files that the experts analyzed, so that no one will know that she lied about being "subject centric. but I don't see how that makes yu conclude the DNA is on the clasp. If she had my DNA, for example, she could have matched peaks and ignored others to come up with a partial match for me, as well. If you have the picture of what you're supposed to match, it's a whole lot easier to come up with a similiar result. Additionally, they collected the clasp on live internet stream. Why do that and it then it just so happens that you discover the only "solid" forsenic evidence against RS? That is no coincidence, I'm sorry. And I think i heard it happened right after they dismissed the footprint in the room as being RS's. So they needed something against him and they manufacturered results. That's just what I believe.

What has been posted many many times before ... and ... does that make it true?

No matter how unpleasant it seems, Sollecito's DNA is consistent with the DNA found on the victim's underwear ... as confirmed by the Rome experts. Whether the contamination question will shift this evidence is yet to be seen but wouldn't it be wild if Knox and Sollecito got off on the fact that contamination cannot be ruled out in forensic labs.

 

[otto]

I'm not clear why Casey anthony is on this thread, but she was found inncoent. You are talking about this with Otto, who has said time and time again that the juries and judges know what they are doing. So if they reach a verdict, then it is right and true. He has said that time and time again with respect to AK and RS, so let it be the same with CA, and let's get back to the trial that is the title of this thread, please.

We have had two women protesting their innocence in a very loud, media head way for the last few years (2008, 2007: Anthony and Knox). One just got out of jail. I guess some are waiting for the other to spring lockup.

Please don't discuss me in the third person ... BBM ... it's rude.

Indeed, it is amusing that in a country where the likes of Casey Anthony can get away with murdering her daughter, people want other justice systems to disintegrate to the same level.

 

[otto]

If the experts in the US are so astute, and if injustice is on the decline with these brilliant pseudo-experts, why is Casey Anthony out of jail?

 

[wasnt_me]

Another word on RG's DNA. I frankly don't trust Stephanoni's work either way, so unfortunately,RG probably does have a leg to stand on to claim that his forensics isnt right, either. Hopefully, his arrests and experience burlarizing places with rocks, carrying knives, being caught with cell phone and keys belonging to others, and his own story, which does not match up, will keep him in jail.

What I think people are missing about RS's DNA and the bra clasp is that MK had various peaks and alilies (however you spell it) also. and she had some in common with RS, if I am not mistaken. Stephanoni, having a picture of his DNA could have been matching MK's peaks and allies and attributing to what matched RS. She could also have been doing that for the other, what was it? three or 4 other unknown profiles on there.

I am no DNA expert, but this is what I read, I think on that wilmington site.

Additionally, I believe the independent experts, in reviewing PS's work, probably also studied her defense of her work. I think it would be irresponsible of them not to look at her previous testimony about her work before they turned in this report to denounce what she'd done. She was also present on numerous occasions when the new committee for this DNA study met. So I am confident that they know what she said in the MOT reports for AK, Rs, and RG. If they STILL wrote all that they wrote, it means they didn't agree with her defense of herself.

Just logical conjecture, because I think it would be a grave waste of the court's time if the experts could have made a more concise and correct report by reviewing PS's defense of her work, but were negligent to do so. If they didn't, surely they have by now, since they'll be questioned in a week. I know if I were an expert, I would have read everything she ever said about her work before putting out a report deeming her work clumbsy and shoddy, because not only are AK and RS's lives at stake, but so is PS's career and/or reputation.

 

[otto]

Another word on RG's DNA. I frankly don't trust Stephanoni's work either way, so unfortunately,RG probably does have a leg to stand on to claim that his forensics isnt right, either. Hopefully, his arrests and experience burlarizing places with rocks, carrying knives, being caught with cell phone and keys belonging to others, and his own story, which does not match up, will keep him in jail.

What I think people are missing about RS's DNA and the bra clasp is that MK had various peaks and alilies (however you spell it) also. and she had some in common with RS, if I am not mistaken. Stephanoni, having a picture of his DNA could have been matching MK's peaks and allies and attributing to what matched RS. She could also have been doing that for the other, what was it? three or 4 other unknown profiles on there.

I am no DNA expert, but this is what I read, I think on that wilmington site.

Additionally, I believe the independent experts, in reviewing PS's work, probably also studied her defense of her work. I think it would be irresponsible of them not to look at her previous testimony about her work before they turned in this report to denounce what she'd done. She was also present on numerous occasions when the new committee for this DNA study met. So I am confident that they know what she said in the MOT reports for AK, Rs, and RG. If they STILL wrote all that they wrote, it means they didn't agree with her defense of herself.

Just logical conjecture, because I think it would be a grave waste of the court's time if the experts could have made a more concise and correct report by reviewing PS's defense of her work, but were negligent to do so. If they didn't, surely they have by now, since they'll be questioned in a week. I know if I were an expert, I would have read everything she ever said about her work before putting out a report deeming her work clumbsy and shoddy, because not only are AK and RS's lives at stake, but so is PS's career and/or reputation.

Don't you "frankly" distrust everything assoiated with the justice that has been found for the family?

 

[miley]

What has been posted many many times before ... and ... does that make it true?

No matter how unpleasant it seems, Sollecito's DNA is consistent with the DNA found on the victim's underwear ... as confirmed by the Rome experts. Whether the contamination question will shift this evidence is yet to be seen but wouldn't it be wild if Knox and Sollecito got off on the fact that contamination cannot be ruled out in forensic labs.

the experts have confirmed no such thing and you're the only one who thinks they found dna on her underwear - everyone else is discussing a bra clasp!

 

[emyr]

Not really ...

Knox, and many other witnesses, were questioned in the days leading up to the day that Knox falsely accused an innocent man of murder.

Knox provided an alibi that could not be independently verified. That is, although she claimed that she was at Sollecito's apartment watching a movie, eating dinner, listening to music, having a shower and sleeping, it was proven untrue. That is, dinner was not at 10 or 11 as Knox claimed, but at 8:20 or 8:30. The movie concluded at 9:10 and there was no human interaction with the computer until the following morning at about 6 AM, when the computer was used for music. I don't believe they sat in silence from 9:10 until the following morning.

After two hours of questioning as a witness, at a time when Knox was not expected to be at the police station, she falsely accused an innocent man of murder. No one knows what was said during that interview except what was written in the statement that Knox signed at 1:45 in the morning. At this time, her status was changed from witness to suspect and she was detained.

At about 5:45, after demanding to be heard, she again signed a statement confirming her earlier statement. Neither this statement, nor the one signed at 1:45, were used against her in court ... they were inadmissable.

Later, while alone in a cell, she asked for paper/pen and reiterated that she stood behind her statements about Patrick. I don't remember the date of this voluntary statement that she described for police as a "gift". For some reason, Nov 9 comes to mind.

Knox did not declare that Patrick was innocent. In fact, she remained silent regarding his innocence.

Regardless of her changing alibi, the events that she claims occurred at Sollecito's apartment between 9 PM and 10 AM (when she said they woke up) did not happen.

I was really looking for a factual timeline of events that happened, not the veracity of the alibi. i.e. at 4pm she stated this, and 7pm she stated that.

It seems we are all working off different versions of the truth. At some level we should all be able to agree on basic indisputable facts.

 

[emyr]

Knox did not confess to being at the scene of the crime. She accused Patrick of murdering her roommate while she stood in the next room with her fingers in her ears. The scream was heard by neighbors and Knox agreed that she had her fingers in her ears to cover the scream.

Her status was changed from that of witness to that of suspect because she inadvertently gave information that was corrobotated by other ear witnesses. Knox did it again when she said that Meredith "f-ing" bled to death before the coroner had announced the cause of death.

In regards to your second point, Her roommate and the roommate's boyfriend who drove Amanda to the police station the day of the murder stated that they told Amanda what they saw in the murder room. So her knowledge should not have made her a suspect. (though that might have been what happened).