Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[Malkmus]

Interesting post from Bruce Fisher on JREF. As it is unsourced, take with a grain of salt. The court dates you can probably trust:

Maresca utilized a loophole on the civil side to get the questioning continued. Hellmann wanted everything wrapped up today. There was also a dispute on the prosecution side about August 27, the new date is now September 5. Court will be in session everyday from that point on until it is finished. As we know, nothing is ever final until it happens. We are told that Hellmann was not happy that there would be continued questioning. The prosecution is dragging this out as long as possible. It's all part of the "process" but also a waste of time. September 5 will be a wasted day of useless questions from Comodi that will do nothing more than attempt to muddy the water. The court appointed independent expert report will stand. We can all kid ourselves and think this is a jury trial but the truth is Hellmann controls the jury. His actions clearly show that he is moving for acquittals.

Sorry for the rushed update, busy day.

Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case - Page 17 - JREF Forum

 

[Nova]

<modsnip>. We are aware that Mark Geragos argued ugly coping with Scott Peterson and Jose Baez argued the same with Casey Anthony. Now we hear it in connection with Knox. What is one to think? Is Knox to be proppred up beside Peterson and Anthony in the Museum of Ugly Coping? That ugly coping is the norm and it's just coincidence that we, and everyone we know, has never encountered it? I'm sorry, but partying hard with props after a murder is twisted.

No one has argued "ugly coping" with reference to Knox<modsnip>.

I'm not a healthcare professional, but I've provided specific examples from my own family of people failing to openly display their grief. I could provide more, but what would be the point? You've already been told by people who are healthcare professionals that there is no "normal" in grief.

<modsnip> that AK did not lose a close relative, as did Peterson and Anthony. AK didn't fail to report a death for 31 days, she got someone who spoke the language to call the police, bought a change of underwear and ate pizza.

"Ugly coping" might be a good term for <modsnip> reverting to tabloid nonsense as hard evidence against AK and RS melts away.

 

[SMK]

"Ugly coping" might be a good term for <modsnip> reverting to tabloid nonsense as hard evidence against AK and RS melts away.

Again:takeabow:Genius:clap::dance:

 

[Salem]

The repeated comparisons of Knox to Peterson and Anthony are specious and offensive. <modsnip>.

It's particularly absurd to imply that Knox should have grieved for a new acquaintance in the same manner that people grieve for dead spouses or children.

As a trial tactic though, I don't think this can be ignored. It failed in SP's case, but may have helped in CA's case. Very interesting what is happening here. OldSteve's post regarding the ability of ILE to collect DNA has some serious merit. If the whole country's law enforcement and judicial process feels attacked - that could backfire against AK and RS.

If we step back from the guilt/innocence of this case and look at strategy only.... it is very interesting. And I think a comparison to both the SP and CA case strategies are fair comparisons. There was little evidence against SP and a ton against CA (in my opinion). SP was convicted and CA was not. That leaves me :waitasec: and says to me that strategy plays a much more important role than I previously believed.

Reading wasnt_me's earlier post - it appears to me that the prosecution is trying to cloud the issue and confuse the judicial participants - especially if they got everyone off track talking about "mourning" instead of the DNA process and whether there was DNA or not.

Just my 2 cents....

Salem

 

[evelyn24]

A letter generalizing how ILE always follows protocol does not trump video and citations of the more than 50 violations Stefanoni and her team made. The experts report has made clear the problems underlying the LCN DNA found on the knife and the poor handling and collection of the bra clasp. As others have stated, both sides have spoken and we'll have to wait and see who the judge and jury believe. I'll take an unbiased report over the prosecution or defense any day.

Exactly. These were court appointed experts.
Also we cannot forget the amount of cases that are overturned in Italy on appeal. There has to be a reason for that. It's not like in the US where winning an appeal is a rare thing.

 

[wasnt_me]

I'm hoping you are right! I still feel that both the first trial and the appeal have had a way of going off-track...

Yep, as possibly other trials in Italy that we don't know about. Remember there's a 50% overturn rate and that's not for nothing. :crazy:

I think the difference here is that the world is watching. With the world watching, does Hellman want to be the judge that continued the circus despite the obvious reasonable doubt or does he want to be the one who put an end to it? Esp, in light of Mig's appeal? He can be the one to teach Mig a lesson about investigating or he could be the one that perpetuates these abuses. Hopefully, he will consider what this will look like to the supreme court, because this report from the experts might be all the SC needs to see.

Also extremely important to remember is that Hellman is unafraid to overturn controversial cases. I can't remember where I got it from now, but remember, I'd cited before a case that he overturned that was a murder case, right? Now I have to go back and find it....

 

[SMK]

Interesting post from Bruce Fisher on JREF. As it is unsourced, take with a grain of salt. The court dates you can probably trust:

Maresca utilized a loophole on the civil side to get the questioning continued. Hellmann wanted everything wrapped up today. There was also a dispute on the prosecution side about August 27, the new date is now September 5. Court will be in session everyday from that point on until it is finished. As we know, nothing is ever final until it happens. We are told that Hellmann was not happy that there would be continued questioning. The prosecution is dragging this out as long as possible. It's all part of the "process" but also a waste of time. September 5 will be a wasted day of useless questions from Comodi that will do nothing more than attempt to muddy the water. The court appointed independent expert report will stand. We can all kid ourselves and think this is a jury trial but the truth is Hellmann controls the jury. His actions clearly show that he is moving for acquittals.

Sorry for the rushed update, busy day.

Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case - Page 17 - JREF Forum

:goodpost:raying:

 

[Malkmus]

(snip) OldSteve's post regarding the ability of ILE to collect DNA has some serious merit. If the whole country's law enforcement and judicial process feels attacked - that could backfire against AK and RS.
(snip)

Ah, but when it is the court's own experts doing the attacking, it's harder to say the judicial process is being attacked... it is interesting, and certainly the first I've seen of something like this.

 

[wasnt_me]

Ah, but when it is the court's own experts doing the attacking, it's harder to say the judicial process is being attacked... it is interesting, and certainly the first I've seen of something like this.

That's a good point, because in Italy, THIS is just how they do it. Again, referring to the appeal overturn rate. It's just part of the process, and Italy thinks it has a good process. I agree with whomever said it's not like USA in which appeal wins are extremely rare. Appeal wins are common in Italy. I personally don't understand it, but it's how they do it, and the appeals court does not fear contradicting a lower court. It's apparently the appeals court's job to critique the lower court.

Who was wrong in most of this? I have to blame Massei and Mattenti (is it?). They did not do a good job listening to defense evidence or descerning evidence without bias.

I think Hellman might be good to stop it here, because when it reaches the SC level, the SC probably will uphold the report, and then the defense will probably have it overturned based on the simply fact that Massei allowed AK's trial to go on in tantum with PL's civil suit, so that evidence barred from court was allowed in anyway.

And that my friends, would be her getting off on a technicality.

 

[Nova]

As a trial tactic though, I don't think this can be ignored. It failed in SP's case, but may have helped in CA's case. Very interesting what is happening here. OldSteve's post regarding the ability of ILE to collect DNA has some serious merit. If the whole country's law enforcement and judicial process feels attacked - that could backfire against AK and RS.

If we step back from the guilt/innocence of this case and look at strategy only.... it is very interesting. And I think a comparison to both the SP and CA case strategies are fair comparisons. There was little evidence against SP and a ton against CA (in my opinion). SP was convicted and CA was not. That leaves me :waitasec: and says to me that strategy plays a much more important role than I previously believed.

Reading wasnt_me's earlier post - it appears to me that the prosecution is trying to cloud the issue and confuse the judicial participants - especially if they got everyone off track talking about "mourning" instead of the DNA process and whether there was DNA or not.

Just my 2 cents....

Salem

Time may prove you right, Salem. The biggest difference, however, is that in Italy, the judge also sits on the jury. Had that been the case with Casey Anthony, I think you would have seen a different verdict (if only because the foreman wouldn't have controlled the discussion).

This isn't to say I think AK and RS will be acquitted. It will take a great deal of moral courage for Hellman to do so; since I don't know the man, I don't have an opinion as to whether he can do it.

 

[mdana]

As a trial tactic though, I don't think this can be ignored. It failed in SP's case, but may have helped in CA's case. Very interesting what is happening here. OldSteve's post regarding the ability of ILE to collect DNA has some serious merit. If the whole country's law enforcement and judicial process feels attacked - that could backfire against AK and RS.

If we step back from the guilt/innocence of this case and look at strategy only.... it is very interesting. And I think a comparison to both the SP and CA case strategies are fair comparisons. There was little evidence against SP and a ton against CA (in my opinion). SP was convicted and CA was not. That leaves me :waitasec: and says to me that strategy plays a much more important role than I previously believed.

Reading wasnt_me's earlier post - it appears to me that the prosecution is trying to cloud the issue and confuse the judicial participants - especially if they got everyone off track talking about "mourning" instead of the DNA process and whether there was DNA or not.

Just my 2 cents....

Salem

Huh? IMO, character assassination and a high media profile are the only common factors. You are comparing a woman accused of murdering her child with a plausible motive, a man murdering his pregnant wife with a plausible motive, and a woman murdering her roomate of one month with no discernable motive after four years of a desperate LE and prosecution throwing everything including the kitchen sink at her. There was no physical evidence of anyone else involved in the CA and SP cases, while RG is implicated in this case. There was no conspiracy in those other two cases, while we are expected to believe their was an immediate one created between three people not fluent in any single language and two have never been proven to have met outside of a courtroom.

Sorry, I don't see it...

 

[wasnt_me]

Huh? IMO, character assassination and a high media profile are the only common factors. You are comparing a woman accused of murdering her child with a plausible motive, a man murdering his pregnant wife with a plausible motive, and a woman murdering her roomate of one month with no discernable motive after four years of a desperate LE and prosecution throwing everything including the kitchen sink at her. ..

I'm sure you meant everything "including the kitchen knife at her...."

:floorlaugh:

 

[mdana]

I'm sure you meant everything "including the kitchen knife at her...."

:floorlaugh:

No I meant RS' leaking kitchen sink and the whole mop movements are constantly used as damning evidence . I meant it literally.

 

[wasnt_me]

About Hellman:

The new judge assigned to Knox's case is no stranger to allegations of judicial error. In fact, he was one of three judges who, in 2000, overturned a controversial conviction in the stabbing murder of Cinzia Bruno, setting free a man who had been jailed for more than seven years.



Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/arti...ons-to-Knox-s-appeal-777351.php#ixzz1TcDcZOHA

 

[emyr]

Emyr, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the experts have built a strong case for contamination of the bra clasp during the collection phase before it reached the lab, and criticized the manner in which Stefanoni interpreted the LCN DNA alleged to belong to the victim Meredith Kercher.

I believe they built a case for it to be contaminated before it reached the lab. And a case for the results themselves to be suspect, and a case for contamination to be possibly within the lab itself.

And the same for the knife.

Based on this third party information of what happened in court today I am hearing new information on how the lab couldn't have contaminated the findings.

I had an impression before of a very busy lab, running multiple samples through the machine. Machines idling for 6 days is different.

That being said, I would still personally throw out the knife from the LCN DNA perspective alone. (I haven't heard any evidence that makes me think a sample of that size is reliable or makes any contextual sense).

 

[wasnt_me]

The machines sitting idle for 6 days does not matter. What matters is if clean MK-DNA-free machines were sitting idle for 6 days. What matters is PS did not perform a preliminary test to make sure said machines were DNA free.

1. do we even believe that the machines were idle, based on other lies the investigators have told?
2. what was the last thing tested on the machine?
3. Why can't they prove the knife's chain of custody?
4. How can we be sure they were clean? If we use the rest of the investigation of a barometer for following evidence collections and cleanliness rules, I can hint that we cannot trust that those machines were clean.


As I said before, it's a red herring, because the experts NEVER said they knew exactly where the contimination stemmed from. And as I said in my previous post, the prosecution cannot even tell you when the knife was bagged. A guy who came from AK's house picked it up. He alread had evidence from the cottage with him. If it had not been bagged, what do you think the likelihood is that he set it back there with the evidence from the cottage when he drove it to the station, where it then set on his desk with the same evidence for days?

 

[Salem]

Huh? IMO, character assassination and a high media profile are the only common factors. You are comparing a woman accused of murdering her child with a plausible motive, a man murdering his pregnant wife with a plausible motive, and a woman murdering her roomate of one month with no discernable motive after four years of a desperate LE and prosecution throwing everything including the kitchen sink at her. There was no physical evidence of anyone else involved in the CA and SP cases, while RG is implicated in this case. There was no conspiracy in those other two cases, while we are expected to believe their was an immediate one created between three people not fluent in any single language and two have never been proven to have met outside of a courtroom.

Sorry, I don't see it...

Actually - I'm comparing trial strategies - the use of experts, the evidence or lack thereof, the deliberate obfuscation of the evidence or lack of evidence. Nothing more.

Salem

 

[Salem]

Ah, but when it is the court's own experts doing the attacking, it's harder to say the judicial process is being attacked... it is interesting, and certainly the first I've seen of something like this.

This is a really good point and may carry alot of weight in how the experts are looked at. Nova also raised a very good point in that it will be the Judge that leads the jury.

I make no attempt whatsoever to predict how this trial will turn out, I just hope that whatever happens it is the just result, either way. I continue to stand on the fence in this case.

Salem

 

[wasnt_me]

Since you are on the fence, Salem, what is it that you would need to see to tip you over to reasonable doubt?

Maybe I have it in my pocket....

 

[Salem]

Since you are on the fence, Salem, what is it that you would need to see to tip you over to reasonable doubt?

Maybe I have it in my pocket....

Thanks wasnt_me, but I don't want to be tipped either way. I love reading these threads and the discussion between all of you posters. And I like not having an opinion because it helps me see the issues more clearly in the trial process.

It is a nice balance after following the CA trial and being just stunned at the verdict in that case. Here, I can see this verdict going either way and I'm okay with that

Salem