Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[Allusonz]

I would in a very limited sense agree with you on the basis that before this report was made public, I thought tampering/planting was just not in any way a real possibility. Basically, I was under the impression it would have been better handled and there would have been more, if it had occured. However, now that certain actors have been shown to be on par with the Keystone Kops of yestyear, I can't completely dimiss the notion as easily as before. If they were as incompetent in the gathering of actual evidence as they have been shown throughout this investigation, I find it plausible they could have been just as incompetent in manufacturing it.

I am still working under the probability it was just a combination of laziness, incomptence, and tunnel vision in the gathering and collection of evidence. I have used Occam's razor throughout this process and see no reason to discard it on this issue.

Totally understand. I have found myself for some time flipping back and forth but then I hit my breaking point :giggle:

I as well appreciate your insight from a number of your posts

 

[Allusonz]

I'll tell you what cinched the manufacturing of evidence for me.

1. Stephanoni refuses to release her fsa files to the defense.
2. 3/4 computers in the investigation get fried, and the judge refuses the defenses request to have one of the computer manufacturers look at it, after they'd exhausted all other means.
3. Stephanoni lies about TMB tests. She says she didn't do them, but she did.
4. Stephanoni, when caught in her lie, still insists that even though the TMB tests says no blood, there is indeed blood.
5. Said footprint might be actually facing the crime scene instead of leading away from it, but they still insisted they are bloody footprints.
6. cites that places on the knife had haematic substance on it, but test results clearly say there's no blood on the knife. If i understand correctly each spot she randomly chose to test came up with some type of result.
7. Questipned V&C by asking if Stephanoni really had to record her neg. controls, because a doctor never recorded washing his hands; however then turned around and told the judge they had a report of stephanoni "washing her hands," essentially. Then after a half hour could not produce said results.
8. Swore they changed gloves and footies when there is video proof that they did not.
9. Giftwrapped a mop with wrapping from the murder scene. A mop, I say.
10. And then released this photo to the press, knowing good and well it's not blood.

So when I hear that they videotaped people passing the bra clasp around like they found a piece of a meteor, And suddenly that's the piece with RS's DNA on it, and it comes a day or so after they loose the shoe print as being RS's and it's a clasp that they photographed before, but supposedly now they'd just left it on the floor for 46 days, I can't help but think that bra clasp had a round trip ticket from the cottage to the lab, then right back to the cottage and to the lab again. Now I wonder if it were really AK's blood on the sink.

I feel david letterman needs to do a top 10 on these folks.

As well when you look at all the rulings that went against the defense, even to the point of ignoring a SC ruling, as well when you find out that the experts were not given documentation and they had to go back through the trial transcripts to try and piece things together. Ok I simply don't know how the defense could of followed a strategy and this is simply the SHORT list as there are so many more things that could be added

 

[Allusonz]

What you say is true, however, the specific investigating officers involved are native to that region, and are well tied into the local Justice system (much more so than Mignini, IIRC), while the whole rest of LE in Italy are not. As such, for my own part, I prefer to distinguish between the forces that are actually involved in this case from ILE as a whole (much like I would prefer not to put my own very excellent LE in the same basket as, say, Eskendido LE, even though they are both US LE).

I as well have to agree. Although most would understand that that we are probably talking about a specific LE in a case, that appears not to be the case with everyone as has been shown

 

[Allusonz]

Oh, I agree. No argument from me. However, I would speculate that the strategy behind this was a move of protest from the prosecutor's side. And for whatever reason, the prosecutor won this argument.

Again, I am not arguing the merits of the case or the facts of the case. I am merely watching how each side chooses to fight for the verdict they want. That's all. I am recognizing that in some cases it appears that the evidence and the facts do not wholly determine the outcome of a case.

Salem

Again I will simply have to agree to disagree

 

[Allusonz]

I think people in general have a strong tendency to trust LE. It's too alarming to do otherwise.

(Perhaps things are different in openly totalitarian countries where official corruption is assumed. I don't know.)

Sometimes that thank you button is simply not enough

 

[Allusonz]

So, in other words, Hellman gave ILE (from both Perugia and Rome) another month to get their stories straight?

As well though gives the defense etc an extra month

 

[Allusonz]

I think skewedview is trying to avoid an italian slander suit!:great:

Probably like me waiting for this all to be over so we can listen to this fabulous DVD you are making

 

[miley]

So is it true that now, knowing that the evidence from the knife and bra clasp were tested 12 and 6 days after the machines were used for other related evidence (seriously reducing the possibility of contamination), we're assuming that the Carabinieri are corrupt? I don't see the connection.

Were does the notion of corrupt Carabinieri come from?

that's because there is no connection - it was your notion insinuating the Carabinieri were corrupt - no one else has stated this and I have no reason to think they are.

 

[miley]

Um, when the Postal Police showed up, AK & RS (RS specifically, for reasons of fluency) had already called the police about a suspected robbery. There was no 'explaining about a murder', because there was no reason for anyone to suspect one at that point. There is nothing to indicate some fiendish plot to get FR to sully the crime scene. Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? :waitasec:

right, Raff called the Carabinieri.... but the postal police called the state police (Squadra Mobile or flying squad) and they took the lead.

BarbieN.'s book... (paraphrasing) ..had the Carabinieri been in charge of the investigation, things may have gone differently..
evidently, the Carabinieri is more experienced investigating violent crimes.

and here from cpj.org..journalists-threatened:

The Kercher murder investigation was headed by Mignini and conducted by a Perugia police unit known as the Squadra Mobile.​

If anything, the postal police sullied the crime scene - remember, the officer walked in and lifted the duvet and then denied it... there was an issue over the cell phones too but I can't remember right now..


which reminds me, when the door was opened someone screamed "a foot" -- amanda was standing back because she was on the phone with her mother.. Amanda thought there was a lone foot in the room - she screamed this to her mother and hung up. so actually, this was her first thought about the crime scene.

(I didn't mean to sway off topic, but someone was talking about this the other day)

 

[Nova]

Nope, very much a he. Either that, or my wife is in for a surprise on the next episode of Jerry Springer! :crazy: Don't worry, no offense is taken.

I'd say I'm in more of a 'it's just a glass of water, drink it!' mode - there is plenty of opportunity for this to backfire on either side now...no victory dances for anybody til the leaves are falling, I'd say.

Sorry, SV! As a male who is often presumed to be female here, I of all people should know better!

WS seems to tilt heavily toward females, so I guess I just assume every poster is a "she" until I'm told otherwise. My assumption was in no way a reflection on your posts; I don't pretend I can distinguish gender from internet posting.

 

[miley]

I can't really say who took the lead as I have just lumped them all together, but I DO KNOW who fried the computers--the postal police.

yeah, I'm not real sure about the postal police... dealt with the stolen cell phones too -- maybe they handle electronics? (I have no idea)

recently, Mignini said he prefers the carabinieri over the state police.. (maybe it was an effort to distance himself)
Rolling Stones article:

Though Mignini won't say it straight out, there is another thing he seems to regret. When I ask him whether he wishes that the carabinieri, and not the state police, had handled the investigation, he sighs warily and glances past me. There, on his bureau, stands a small collection of carabinieri action figures: two three-inch plastic figurines in uniform, and a matchbox-size patrol car. It might have made a difference, he says. The carabinieri, he acknowledges, have more resources and a different style, due to the fact that they are a division of the military. Yes, he says finally, he prefers the carabinieri.​

 

[miley]

I must agree here. I believe that Hellmann is very aware of what they are attempting/might attempt to do. He is not happy whatsoever. The shocker to me is that the judge did not allow them to get away with it. If this had of been the first trial they would indeed of gotten away with it.

As you state the defense attorneys are not good on cross. They are getting pro bono help though now from some that are so I do hope they are well prepared

the prosecution seems to interrupt and create confusion - I read somewhere on jref, that Mignini said in a recent interview that he wasn't involved in any of the dna cross because he knows nothing about it and that's why he brought Comodi on board in the first place --- interesting huh? (I haven't double checked this though so please take w/ grain of salt)
it makes sense though, I had wondered why Comodi was up there yelling w/ Maresca...

 

[emyr]

Interesting how much the case has changed:

http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/about16933.html

 

[SMK]

Just an Aug. post on the appeal process - I know Skewedview had brought up the adversarial vs inquisitorial systems respective to the US and Italy in prior posts: In any case, all of the below is right up Otto's alley, and am hoping it is not so bad as it is being made to appear.

Amanda Knox: Problems Practicing U.S. Law in Italy
August 01, 2011

Simply put, in the United States we have an adversarial court system in which prosecution and defense are expected to face off and play by the rules of court and the law. In Italy, an inquisitorial court system is in place (as is true throughout most of Europe).

In an inquisitorial system, where the judicial mission is to seek truth, the judge (or judges) jointly occupies the positions of magistrate and chief investigator. But, in seeking the truth, the defendant is expected to cooperate with the investigative trial process.

And that puts Amanda Knox in a rather awkward position as she faces charges of slander against the Italian police, after earlier falsely accusing an acquaintance of murdering roommate Meredith Kercher.

Although lying to police might have made the defendant appear very clever to a Florida jury, it makes Knox look uncooperative in the eyes of the Italians. In Italy, being uncooperative is viewed as a sign of deception and, therefore, guilt.
[. . . ]
Several possibilities loom for Amanda Knox and not many are positive. Indeed, the court may find that the botched DNA evidence has tainted the criminal trial; therefore, the convictions of Knox and Sollecito are vacated. Or because the court is an investigative body as much as it is a trial court, it may decide that there is sufficient evidence without DNA evidence to uphold the convictions. Worse, now that the case is reopened, the sentences may be reviewed and prolonged by the Italian court to life imprisonment for either defendant.

And finally, it is equally possible that Knox will be acquitted of murder but convicted for slander. And in Italy, slander is a criminal offense for which one can be imprisoned; back to square one, in other words.

Amanda Knox became ensnared in an Italian murder investigation whilst visions of the American criminal justice system danced in her head. Being clever in American law may have been her undoing in Italy.

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal...knox-problems-practicing-us-law-in-italy.html

 

[Nova]

Just an Aug. post on the appeal process - I know Skewedview had brought up the adversarial vs inquisitorial systems respective to the US and Italy in prior posts: In any case, all of the below is right up Otto's alley, and am hoping it is not so bad as it is being made to appear.

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal...knox-problems-practicing-us-law-in-italy.html

I thought the point of the recent judicial reforms was to bring Italy closer to the adversarial systems practiced in England and the U.S.

(BTW I mean I read that, although I don't have a link handy. I don't pretend to have an independent opinion on Italian law.)

 

[SMK]

I thought the point of the recent judicial reforms was to bring Italy closer to the adversarial systems practiced in England and the U.S.

(BTW I mean I read that, although I don't have a link handy. I don't pretend to have an independent opinion on Italian law.)

One would hope so, but this particular legal blogger seems to be posing the idea that Italy is vastly different in its approach: (same link as my prior post)

Whereas, allegations that the police botched evidence collection are nothing new in criminal trials on either side of the Atlantic, it is important that the charges have been made in Italy. It’s a distinction that boils down to this: the Italian court system is vastly different from ours; therefore, how the court reacts to new evidence is not as predictable there as it is here.

another quote from same piece: revealing that Knox would fare better in Orlando than Perugia:

Local thief Rudy Guede already has pleaded guilty to the rape and murder of Kercher, with plenty of evidence to support a conviction. Therefore, one must wonder aloud how it happens that Knox and Sollecito are even implicated. DNA evidence, is the Italian police response, although one might logically expect Knox’s DNA and that of boyfriend Sollecito to be found in Knox’s own residence. The Italian police would point out that Knox confessed to participating in Kercher’s murder. This is true, but she later retracted the confession saying that the Italian police abused and beat her into confessing. And that is what the slander trial is all about; nonsense, say the police. Once again, alleging police abuse puts the prosecution on the defensive in America and it may be perceived as a clever ploy in an Orlando courtroom; however, it forces the defense to prove the allegations in Italy. Once again, this is not a good position for someone already found culpable in falsely accusing an innocent man.

 

[dgfred]

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Here's a powerpoint presentation for your viewing pleasure. Totality of evidence.

 

[Allusonz]

One would hope so, but this particular legal blogger seems to be posing the idea that Italy is vastly different in its approach: (same link as my prior post)



another quote from same piece: revealing that Knox would fare better in Orlando than Perugia:

I understand the fact that many people have diverse opinions on this case some more informed than others and some less emotionally involved than others. The Italian system is much different but has left out the fact that each issue is again revisited simply because all the testimony from the first trial becomes part of this appeal

My problem with this particular blog is that it does not take into consideration any of the issues brought up both in the first trial or the appeals and appears to be accepting the findings of the first trial without recognizing that this appeal will rule again on each item some of which there is great debate over.

Some examples are:

TOD The consensus of the experts state within 2-3 hours with 4 being the max in which it is noted that slippage would of taken place by the 4th hour

The judge in the first trial disregarded the computer activity of 9:26 but did accept the computer activity of 9:10

No matter what anyone believes with respect to the bathmat the simple fact remains that it cannot be 100% attributed to any individual

The PLE only took into account cell phone tower coverage not the actual pings of which the defense did a very detailed analysis of

This particular blogger also does not seem to realized what the DNA experts are stating and how extremely critical they are throughout the entire process

It is also not acknowledged that the prosecution presented no evidence to support a staged break-in yet the defense provided evidence through experts that it was indeed not staged.

Although I appreciate the point of view of the bloggers, one must when reading these take into consideration all the aspects of this case. Not chery pick certain elements.

 

[Allusonz]

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Here's a powerpoint presentation for your viewing pleasure. Totality of evidence.

Shakes head. Once again Kermit should be finding a hole to stick ones head into

 

[dgfred]

Only to dodge the trolls and supporters that will try (in vain) to argue against it.