Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

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  • #321
Good observations SMK and Nova about AK having autism spectrum disorder, or something related! Would account for her odd behavior at times, and perhaps why she did not think more clearly about the legal predicament she was getting into....
Thanks, and I do think so. Of course many would say we are "making excuses" for her; but when you read of her many bizarre habits - such as singing loudly in public - one does get the feeling that this article from Time Magazine's Health section may have been onto something after all:

Could Amanda Knox Have an Autism Spectrum Disorder?
By Maia Szalavitz Thursday, June 30, 2011 |


With the DNA evidence excluded, the only substantiation of Knox's guilt includes a possibly coerced confession and her bizarre behavior after being arrested. But could those two things have the same explanation?

Is it possible that Knox has an underlying condition — Asperger's syndrome, a less severe form of autism — that caused both her unusual social behavior and a gullibility that triggered a false confession?


knoxcropped.jpg


http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/...ve-an-autism-spectrum-disorder/#ixzz1USkzcLih
 
  • #322
Thanks, and I do think so. Of course many would say we are "making excuses" for her; but when you read of her many bizarre habits - such as singing loudly in public - one does get the feeling that this article from Time Magazine's Health section may have been onto something after all....

Well, we're accuse of "making excuses" all the time.

The fact is none of AK's supposedly "odd" behavior was violent or criminally inclined, none of it suggests she is a murderer. But numerous people have mentioned that she didn't have a clear concept of how she was perceived by others.
 
  • #323
Well, we're accuse of "making excuses" all the time.

The fact is none of AK's supposedly "odd" behavior was violent or criminally inclined, none of it suggests she is a murderer. But numerous people have mentioned that she didn't have a clear concept of how she was perceived by others.
Right. What it does suggest, is that Amanda may have been ripe for being misperceived, in the most serious of ways, when she tripped off happily to begin her Perugian studies...(This is why I guard my son so closely. He has in fact already been questioned by the police, because they misunderstood his odd behavior (at age 23, running and skipping around the condo complex where we live, at night.)
 
  • #324
I think since the police already felt that Amanda was such a liar, and so confused, and saying things "felt like a dream", that they were really foolhardy not to check out PL's alibi quickly, and make sure they were not holding him wrongly for 2 weeks.

It must be remembered that the PLE would not accept the person that came back to Italy to vouch for him. Instead they grilled this individual for 7 hours. They still kept PL locked up for another week then would not renew his license to operate for months.

This was not about what AK stated. They already suspected him they just simply needed her to name him to arrest him
 
  • #325
I know many of you have seen me post why I dislike it when people try to diagnose someone here in the threads as I go through them. You have all probably seen me state so but I do have my reasons. Don't I always? :giggle:

As much as it may seem that AK could have an autism or other disorder I truly do dislike it being stated so and here is why.

If she had been previously diagnosed I am certain that this would of been part of her defense.

If she had not been diagnosed and it had been missed she truly should be diagnosed by a professional

I will share this story as to why it should be done and why.

My son is quirky but he is also highly intelligent. The school was certain that he had a form of ADHD and insisted on testing him. I in turn said no I will take him to an expert and have him tested.

For anyone that has ever gone through the testing for ADHD etc., you are probably very aware of how the process goes. The first session was 4 hours. For my son whom is active, can't sit still etc., this was in his mind cruel. About 3 hours into the session the specialist asked if he could do a different kind of test and I said sure.

It turns out the reason my son was always so restless etc., is that he has a high I.Q. As he is adopted I am sorry I cannot take the credit for it :giggle:

The specialist suggested a program for "gifted" students and I thought it over for about a whole 10 seconds before I said no.

Here is my reason

If you are that intelligent and become bored that easy, at the end of the day you must still learn to interact with students that are not quite so gifted. It does not mean you can hum to yourself waiting for everyone else to finish the exam you completed in minutes compared to the hours it took others.

It does not mean you can use your finger and cheek to mimick the beat of a song that a person is happening to be hearing in their head

It does not mean that since the group of students are acting up and you don't want to have homework you can get up and move to a different table, complete the assignment and hand it in as an individual when it was to be done as a group

I could sit here and list pages of things he would do to occupy himself during school that many professionals mistook as a disorder.

What he did need to learn was what was appropriate behaviour and what was not in various settings. This meant that often people tried to pin a label on him which is wrong IMO. The one thing I did note was that he seemed to mature slower. I spoke with this specialist for some time and we decided on a course of action. I went to the school, spoke with the teachers and asked that he be given additional activities. This included additional school work, tasks helping the teacher, tasks including helping other students that were having difficulty.

Was he considered "weird"? Yes. Did he mature? Yes but much slower than many others. Did the extra assignments hurt him? No Was he ADHD? No. Were the teachers wrong? Yes Does he still get bored? Yes Can he cope with it better now at 22 than in grade 9? Yes Does he still do weird things? Yes but not as much Can he recite verbatim an entire episode to a show? Yes

Does he have a disorder? No
 
  • #326
Not in a room full of people. How long did it take for her boyfriend to 'falsely' confess she was not with him? She got a year extra in jail for the false accusation. It is not a little thing she did. But we went over that so many times already. I don't really have anything new on the topic :)


But you just said that you didn't think any of the three of them would have committed murder on their own. That you feel a group dynamic was needed for such a thing to happen, and that two hours is enough for such a group dynamic to create a situation where an actual, violent, murder with multiple knives was committed.

So a group dynamic of 13 people, who say you are lying, who point out the text of a man you worked with, isn't enough of a group dynamic? Two hours in THAT group dynamic is not enough to get caught up in the situation and accuse an innocent man, and say you were present at a murder you didn't commit?

The same for Sollecito. In a group dynamic of several hours, and being told there is proof positive your girlfriend was not with you that night, THAT'S not enough of a group dynamic to get swept up and falsely state that she wasn't with you that night?

If they are believed to be so weak-willed that they would commit a murder... isn't it more plausible to believe they are so weak-willed that they would lie?
 
  • #327
Good observations SMK and Nova about AK having autism spectrum disorder, or something related! Would account for her odd behavior at times, and perhaps why she did not think more clearly about the legal predicament she was getting into....

Or she simply could be intelligent, with a high I.Q., naive and immature
 
  • #328
I know many of you have seen me post why I dislike it when people try to diagnose someone here is the threads as I go through them. You have all probably seen me state so but I do have my reasons. Don't I always? :giggle:

As much as it may seem that AK could have an autism or other disorder I truly do dislike it being stated so and here is why.

If she had been previously diagnosed I am certain that this would of been part of her defense.

If she had not been diagnosed and it had been missed she truly should be diagnosed by a professional

I will share this story as to why it should be done and why.

My son is quirky but he is also highly intelligent. The school was certain that he had a form of ADHD and insisted on testing him. I in turn said no I will take him to an expert and have him tested.

For anyone that has ever gone through the testing for ADHD etc., you are probably very aware of how the process goes. The first session was 4 hours. For my son whom is active, can't sit still etc., this was in his mind cruel. About 3 hours into the session the specialist asked if he could do a different kind of test and I said sure.

It turns out the reason my son was always so restless etc., is that he has a high I.Q. As he is adopted I am sorry I cannot take the credit for it :giggle:

The specialist suggested a program for "gifted" students and I thought it over for about a whole 10 seconds before I said no.

Here is my reason

If you are that intelligent and become bored that easy, at the end of the day you must still learn to interact with students that are not quite so gifted. It does not mean you can hum to yourself waiting for everyone else to finish the exam you completed in minutes compared to the hours it took others.

It does not mean you can use your finger and cheek to mimick the beat of a song that a person is happening to be hearing in their head

It does not mean that since the group of students are acting up and you don't want to have homework you can get up and move to a different table, complete the assignment and hand it in as an individual when it was to be done as a group

I could sit here and list pages of things he would do to occupy himself during school that many professionals mistook as a disorder.

What he did need to learn was what was appropriate behaviour and what was not in various settings. This meant that often people tried to pin a label on him which is wrong IMO. The one thing I did note was that he seemed to mature slower. I spoke with this specialist for some time and we decided on a course of action. I went to the school, spoke with the teachers and asked that he be given additional activities. This included additional school work, tasks helping the teacher, tasks including helping other students that were having difficulty.

Was he considered "weird"? Yes. Did he mature? Yes but much slower than many others. Did the extra assignments hurt him? No Was he ADHD? No. Were the teachers wrong? Yes Does he still get bored? Yes Can he cope with it better now at 22 than in grade 9? Yes Does he still do weird things? Yes but not as much Can he recite verbatim an entire episode to a show? Yes

Does he have a disorder? No
YES, absolutely, I agree that one can not be an arm-chair diagnostic person, and see "disorder" in "quirky" behavior. I appreciate what you have been through with your son, and I know all too well how quickly people like to slap "disorder" labels on the bored and highly intelligent, who are only restless.

I think you took a moderate and wise course of action.

With my own son, of course, there is a quite serious disorder which affects many areas of his life.

The only importance this MAY have had for Knox, is that IF - and it is a big IF - she has a mild disorder, a formal diagnosis may have made Mignini and others more understanding. Water under the bridge, at this point.
 
  • #329
YES, absolutely, I agree that one can not be an arm-chair diagnostic person, and see "disorder" in "quirky" behavior. I appreciate what you have been through with your son, and I know all too well how quickly people like to slap "disorder" labels on the bored and highly intelligent, who are only restless.

I think you took a moderate and wise course of action.

With my own son, of course, there is a quite serious disorder which affects many areas of his life.

The only importance this MAY have had for Knox, is that IF - and it is a big IF - she has a mild disorder, a formal diagnosis may have made Mignini and others more understanding. Water under the bridge, at this point.

What you state is so true SMK. It truly should be done by a professional up close and personal so to speak.

As for my son does he still drive me nuts? Yes but I am more understanding of him

As for your son I am quite certain the same applies thus we are both able to help our sons and it becomes a win win situation :)
 
  • #330
What you state is so true SMK. It truly should be done by a professional up close and personal so to speak.

As for my son does he still drive me nuts? Yes but I am more understanding of him

As for your son I am quite certain the same applies thus we are both able to help our sons and it becomes a win win situation :)
That's the spirit!:great:
 
  • #331
You know, I really am longing for this ruling, no matter which way it goes - of course I pray that there will be true justice - and am so weary of wondering the outcome of the appeal.

I noticed Amanda's mother Edda Mellas said in a recent article, about the Sep. 5 hearings, "Amanda is so disappointed it is dragging out, because she is still in jail, while everyone is going on vacation." It hit me, what will Edda , Amanda, and her family think if she gets 30 years? I want to see the convictions overturned, but I am very wary of declaring victory before the fact.

I am dying to know what is in Judge Hellman's mind at this point........:waitasec:

Edda Mellas, Amanda's mother, said: "Amanda was frustrated with the delay and she has to sit in jail in the heat while everyone goes on vacation."

Knox's lawyer Carlo della Vedova said that nothing has changed as a result of today's hearing. "It was a heated debate but the prosecutor was not able to overturn the experts' results," he said.

The hearings will resume on September 5th with Francesco Maresca's cross-examination of the independent experts and hearings will probably continue for a number of days that week.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda-knox-prosector-blasts-dna-report/story?id=14195630&page=2
 
  • #332
You know, I really am longing for this ruling, no matter which way it goes - of course I pray that there will be true justice - and am so weary of wondering the outcome of the appeal.

I noticed Amanda's mother Edda Mellas said in a recent article, about the Sep. 5 hearings, "Amanda is so disappointed it is dragging out, because she is still in jail, while everyone is going on vacation." It hit me, what will Edda , Amanda, and her family think if she gets 30 years? I want to see the convictions overturned, but I am very wary of declaring victory before the fact.

I am dying to know what is in Judge Hellman's mind at this point........:waitasec:

Totally agree!!! I believe that Hellmann has given us some clues though. As well the experts did not come out with a half baked decision which was my greatest fear as I did suspect when the prosecution would not hand over the .fsa files that there had been some hanky panky happening. It is also interesting to note that this is the first time the DNA lab has come under scrutiny and it is being done worldwide. I believe in my heart that Italy knows that a wrong has been done the question is how will they right the wrong. As well considering it was stated that this was a satanic rite I did not see any evidence of that presented by the prosecution. I do believe the judge had formed an opinion prior to the opening of the appeal based on the existing testimony. I believe he needed to clear up some questions in his mind such as the DNA. Now we wait as the court is closed during August. Sigh....
 
  • #333
Totally agree!!! I believe that Hellmann has given us some clues though. As well the experts did not come out with a half baked decision which was my greatest fear as I did suspect when the prosecution would not hand over the .fsa files that there had been some hanky panky happening. It is also interesting to note that this is the first time the DNA lab has come under scrutiny and it is being done worldwide. I believe in my heart that Italy knows that a wrong has been done the question is how will they right the wrong. As well considering it was stated that this was a satanic rite I did not see any evidence of that presented by the prosecution. I do believe the judge had formed an opinion prior to the opening of the appeal based on the existing testimony. I believe he needed to clear up some questions in his mind such as the DNA. Now we wait as the court is closed during August. Sigh....
I think you are right on all counts. I just wish the Sep 5 date would come and go, and the ruling and verdict would be issued. Sep 5-10 ought to be the end of the debate.....
 
  • #334
Quote from Judges Report referring to Lalli's Report

That is for the body temperature which was not taken for some 24 later. You forgot this part which was specific to the TOD based on digestion


Dr. Lalli: at a distance of not more than 2-3 hours from the consumption of the last meal (see errate corrige [Latin: correction of error] on 15.2.2008, acquired during the trial hearing, and p. 47 of the stenotyped record from the hearing of 3.4.09);
 
  • #335
I have the official transcripts. They do not contain every word AK said. In fact, they only contain a few lines. But if you think the leaks to the newspapers were fake and it is not what she said then that is fair enough.

Mignini was very clear in his interview with CNN. Translations are on TJMK and PMF I think.

I wouldn't call the statements she signed "transcripts". I think if transcripts of the interrogation existed it would clear a lot up. One thing I did find interesting from that article was this:

"There were holes in her alibi and her mobile phone records were crucial," he said. Police also found text messages from Lumumba, fixing a meeting between them at 8.35pm on November 1, the night Miss Kercher died.

Knox broke down under interrogation. She burst into tears and made her confession at 5.45am after the interrogator said: "You did it, you held her down."

As we know the texts were no such indication of a "meeting" and that supposedly she confessed after they thought this meeting had happened and after they (somehow, with no evidence) declared knowing she had held Meredith down. Anyway, just my observation.

Thanks for the Mignini quote... It does put into question the satanic rite argument. To be honest, I don't think the defense would just make such a thing up, and I think that it was more likely an exaggeration of Mignini's masonic/"halloween rite" theory. It had to have come from somewhere, and as someone else pointed out, since Mignini's never charged anyone with slander for it, it must be true to some degree considering his track record.
 
  • #336
Two 2011 articles from Doug Bremmer, which he has reposted on Facebook tonight:

Much has been made of her “changing her story” which I have previously addressed in my post on coerced and false confessions (see link below). What she might or might not have said in the 53 hours of interrogation in a foreign language, however, aren’t really germane, since it was physically impossible for her to have committed the crime.
http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.co...-amanda-knox-to-have-killed-meredith-kercher/

Amanda Knox and the Coercive Interrogation Tactics of the Polizia di Stato in Perugia
At this point in the Amanda Knox trial there is no physical evidence to uphold the conviction of murder of her flat mate Meredith Kercher. The only thing people can point to is that she “confessed” and “placed herself at the scene”. This, however, can be explained by the illegal techniques used by the Polizia di Stato in Perugia in her interrogation and a knowledge of the science of memory and the psychology of coercion.
http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.co...n-tactics-of-the-polizia-di-stato-in-perugia/

Consider the case of a 20 something girl just met a young boy and fell in love, had a room mate who had a relationship with another young man living in the flat below, had a single introduction to a young man who had recently been arrested for breaking and entering, and then decided to have a four way sex orgie that led to the death of her room mate? And this was a satanic sex rite? To celebrate Halloween?

You would want to have a lot of evidence that this was the case, right? What if I told you that there was absolutely no evidence?

This is the case of Amanda Knox.

No bleach, no bloody footprint, no blood on the knife, nothing. There is no evidence that she was in the room where the murder took place. Or her boyfriend. Her only crime was being the flat mat of Meredith Kercher, who was raped and killed by Rudy Guede. His bloody handprints were found all over the room and his DNA inside the body of the victim. Open and shut case. You can read here about what happened during the interrogation process that lead the police to arrest Patrick Lumumba, Amanda’s employer, and here about the impossibility of the “staged break in” theory that the police pulled out of thin air to explain the crime scene and here my prior writings about the absence of evidence against Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito in the murder of her flat mate Meredith Kercher. The fact is that Rudy broke into the house, Meredith came home and he raped and killed her.

And then a journalist, Andrea Vogt, writing in a Seattle newspaper of all places, writes an article that says Amanda says “I was there“. Until recently this incredibly misleading (at best) statement went unchallenged. And in a Seattle newspaper, of all places. We’re not talking about Italian or British tabloids here folks!
 
  • #337
No, I think I'm spouting propaganda. Thanks for saving me.

Because as I was searching, I remembered that they didn't let that shoe print go until RG admitted it was his sometime in 2008 or 2009, right? Remember, RG outright admitted that it would be his.

So we knew about the bra clasp before that.

I read something like it again before I went to bed last night but didn't come back to fix this post. What I read twice now is that when the shoe didn't fit, they bought out the bra clasp. It was like they were saying that when RG finally admitted the shoe print was his, then they brought out this clasp, but I had always thought they mentioned the clasp right away. I don't think I'm wrong about the gist of what i'm saying, but I need help clarifying the facts before you take it as gospel.
 
  • #338
2 hours is enough to get messed up and do something stupid, i.e. commit murder, but it is not enough time to get scared enough to falsely confess you were present at a murder?

while possible high, I might add. Highness causes paranoia, so they say...
 
  • #339
while possible high, I might add. Highness causes paranoia, so they say...
Right, I have always felt they took advantage of her foggy, confused, scared state of mind. And then looked for the evidence, saw what they wanted to see, afterward. It is sadistic, when you think about it. It is as though Amanda arouses hate and sadism in a certain kind of person. I have seen it on PMF, I have seen it in people. They hate her. Like her confusion, her "airy" quality, is a disease.
 
  • #340
I wouldn't call the statements she signed "transcripts". I think if transcripts of the interrogation existed it would clear a lot up. One thing I did find interesting from that article was this:





As we know the texts were no such indication of a "meeting" and that supposedly she confessed after they thought this meeting had happened and after they (somehow, with no evidence) declared knowing she had held Meredith down. Anyway, just my observation.

Thanks for the Mignini quote... It does put into question the satanic rite argument. To be honest, I don't think the defense would just make such a thing up, and I think that it was more likely an exaggeration of Mignini's masonic/"halloween rite" theory. It had to have come from somewhere, and as someone else pointed out, since Mignini's never charged anyone with slander for it, it must be true to some degree considering his track record.

Ok Malkmus I simply could hug you right now. So this states she did not so call confess till 5:45?


ETA I need to go look at these rofl
 
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