Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

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  • #821
So the judged chose to overlook the testimony that TOD was established as from 9 to 9:30???

Regarding your ETA: Is this another instance where the judged chose to overlook what is the defense position?

*Still no answer about the 'laws of physics' statement?

Why the dislike of Mignini if it was the judges that chose to ignore the defense positions regarding TOD and the staged break in?
If the judge is believing there is a staging, doesn't the spell doom for AK/RS anyway?
Why are there so many instances where one could even say 'the judge decided to ignore' regarding defense positions regarding evidence?
Will the judge ignore these same defense positions regarding these things in the appeal?

One of the things about science is that there are parameters that don't change because you happen to be in a different time zone, country, etc.

The truly cool thing I have found with the Italian system is the Motivational Report which not only allows individuals such as ourselves to review how a trial judge reasoned it also allows the experts, and their own peers to review the reasoning and agree or disagree. I can think of many cases where I would of loved to of known how they came to a decision whether I agreed or disagreed.
 
  • #822
Okay. This is what I think.

RG, interested in Ak, went to Le Chic to "run into her." PL tells him that AK is scheduled to work, but he was giving her the night off because it was so slow around there. In discussing the girls at the cottage, PL and RG agree that MK is attractive, too, and PL says the girls both have BF's already. They joke that the BF's are no match for them in terms of romance. PL texts AK that she has the night off.

AK gets the text, talks to RS's friend, turns off her phone because she left her charger at home and doesn't expect calls since RS is with her. RS downloads another movie, but AK is tired of movies. she thinks she should go home to get the mop since the pipe burst. He doesn't want her to walk because it's dark with the time change, so they set off.

PL decides that since it's dead at the bar, he's gonna go to the cottage to talk to MK about her bartending job. RG tags along. Meanwhile, MK arrives home and sees the two men on the rail at the street. They hop over it, so they don't have to walk by the cameras, and PL talks to MK on the porch about her new job as she unlocks the door. PL's phone pings in the area.

AK and RS arrive to get the mop about 920pm, while RS is in the bathroom. After a brief conversation with MK, AK, and RS, PL heads back to Le Chic.

RG comes out of the bathroom and MK seems to act awkwardly as he is making himself at homme. RS and AK say nothing, assuming that RG was there because MK wanted him there. They leave out with the mop and bucket to put it in the car.

MK tries to tell RG that it's time for him to go, too, but thinking they were alone, RG makes advances on her and a fight ensues.

In the car, AK thinks it's weird as hell that RG was there. They drive up the road, but AK is not comfortable. RS says maybe they ought to go back there. When they get back there, AK screams to see MK dead on the floor. RS removed his shoes and went into the MK's room to roll her over and check her vitals, somehow touching something that touches the bra clasp. Seeing she's dead, he puts the duvet over her and closes her door. He got blood on his bare foot, so he rinses it in the bidet.

AK has completely fallen apart and she's hysterical and RS doesnt know what to do, so he just takes her back to his house. He wants to call the police, but RG comes to the door and threatens them through the door speaker thing. AK grabs the knife in the drawer because she's scared, but the tip of it bumps into RS's shirt, which as MK's dna on it from when he checked her vitals. RS convinces her to put the knife back in the drawer because the stranger at the door can't get to them.

AK wont let RS call the police after that because she's scared out her mind. The next day, RS convinces her that they have to deal with it, so they go to the cottage, and AK freaks out to find the window broken, the crap in the toilet and MK's door locked (Apparently RG returned to the place).

They call police. RS has no idea who RG was anyways, but RS is surprised when AK doesn't reveal that they'd been there the night before. He goes along with whatever AK is conveying to the police. PL meets with AK to make sure she wasn't telling them that he did it just because she saw him there earlier. In the interrogation on the 5th, AK breaks down and only remembers seeing patrick that night, because she was all confused and couldn't even remember RG's face, just his skin color. meanwhile, they take RS's shoes and try to pin the footprints on him, and he tells them AK's story was crap, but he's so scared, he says he wasn't even with her for some time that night, and well....you know the rest....

Oh, and all the other evidence is just as unexplained as it has always been.
 
  • #823
One of the things about science is that there are parameters that don't change because you happen to be in a different time zone, country, etc.

The truly cool thing I have found with the Italian system is the Motivational Report which not only allows individuals such as ourselves to review how a trial judge reasoned it also allows the experts, and their own peers to review the reasoning and agree or disagree. I can think of many cases where I would of loved to of known how they came to a decision whether I agreed or disagreed.

What parameters and what relevance to this case? Or why do the laws of physics rule out a staging in your opinion?

Yes, I also like the Motivational Reports regarding the reasoning/decisions of the Judges.
 
  • #824
Another scenerio....

AK and RS are playing guitar and doing whatever at AK's house. They cooked, bringing a knife from RS's house because LM didn't like for people to use her knives. She thought they'd ruin them. So anyways, MK finally gets up after her night and commences her laundry. MK says she's going to her friend's houses and AK says she's working that night. MK mentions that she might talk to PL about the bartending job, which miffs AK. MK also makes a snarky remark about making sure they cleaned up the kitchen before leaving and she didn't want to see more crap in the toilet because AK forgets to scrub.

AK is oblivious to other digs MK makes at her. MK has started to make digs at her because the british girls have been pointing out how "uncool" AK is whenever MK mentions AK's quirkiness. MK says she'll be home about 9pm, and AK informs her that FR went out with her bf but she didn't know when FR would be back.

MK leaves and RS gripes that AK doesn't need to take that off MK. Ak doesn't know what he means, but he explains that MK was putting her down and thought she was better than AK. Ak starts to feel upset about MK's treatment of her, and they go out. They run into RG in the square and wind up telling him that MK's bf was out of town, and in fact, the cottage was a ghost town except for AK and MK. In conversation, AK remembers that RG was the one who fell asleep on the boy's toilet. He denies it, but RS laughs and says that would fix the prudish MK. RS thinks it'll be funny if MK discovered RG "sleeping" on their toilet with crap in it.

So RG agrees to do it, because it involved him being alone in the cottage for a short while, long enough to steal some stuff maybe. AK said she couldn't let him in because she had to work, so RS agreed to do it.

Later, AK got the call from PL. before they got ready to go meet RG together, the pipe burst and they had to deal with that, figuring that RG would just go about his way if they didn't show up.

RG, however, was high on something and decided that he'd throw a rock in the window to get in. He went to the wrong bathroom to do his load, and got bored, waiting for MK and decided to start going through FR's stuff. MK came home, but RG wasn't in position. He got caught off guard and MK was ready to fight. He grabbed RS's knife out of the kitchen and chased her in her room. RS and AK got there and....

Geez, I don't even know, because I can see no scenerio, where they jump in to help RG kill and rape MK. I can see AK and RS acting in concert, but I cannot see RG jumping in to help them, either.
 
  • #825
So much evidence, though circumstanial, supports the earlier TOD. I'm not sure how it can be refuted.

1. MK getting home when RG said she did.
2. RG pinpointing the TOD with more accuracy than the investigators (when he was on the toilet, of course).
3. Lack of cell phone activity at a time when she did use her phone alot, according to her phone records.
4. Her jacket being wrested off her during the murder.
5. The broken down car and tow truck incident from 1030 to 1120pm during which none of those people saw lights or activity at the cottage.
6. Evidence from defense experts that the phones were at the garden by 1013pm.
7. The fact that her laundry wasn't taken out of the washer from between 9pm and a death at 11 or 1130 or whatever other later time. What was MK doing all that time in the cottage?
8. The fact that she never attempted to call her sick mom back after the 856pm attempt that never connected.

Even early news reports put the TOD before 1030pm. The TOD was moved back to accomodate the ear witness, who says she heard a scream around 11pm, an impossible scream that not even the family awaiting the tow truck heard.

It's strange. The item which I find the most convincing for an earlier TOD is that her jacket was wrestled off.
 
  • #826
I'm reading an old blog where they state that the DNA on the clasp was a TOTAL of 1.14 picograms, which would mean Raf's portion of the DNA was in the range of 1.14 to about 200 picograms. That's LCN DNA. They say the source is the appeals document. Can anyone verify that figure?
 
  • #827
  • #828
SMK asked me why was RG involved, and what could have been a scenario for the three accused getting together.

The prosecution's burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt concerning the overall evidence IMO, not because they can not provide a motive for killing Meredith. They do not have to prove motive beyond a reasonable doubt to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't agree with there being any language or time constraints even though the language one has been posted many times in this thread. AK spoke Italian well enough to be with RS all day/night for about a week, take classes, and function in general with the language IMO.

As for time constraints I am not sure what you mean at all. Neither has an alibi from around 9pm to about 6am the next morning computer/phone activity. RS last statement to investigators places AK out of his apartment from 9pm to 1am. Since their location during the time from 9pm to 6am can not be verified because they turned their phones off, I don't see any time constraints. No computer activity and no phone activity takes any problems with lack of time away, IMO.


I think the evidence shows AK and RS were at RS' apartment until 10 pm and MK was dead within minutes of that.

As for AK's fluency in Italian, I don't think a week spent with RS proves she had the fluency to enter into a murder conspiracy with RS and RG. I don't even know that she and RS spent much time talking during that week.
 
  • #829
Sloppy overall or just concerning AK/RS? What about the case against RG?

Which parts to you consider screwed up? Doubt in what part(s) should be given?

Does giving the doubt in one (or a couple) area mean they are not guilty of being involved in murder? Do you want doubt given to the defense in every instance of disputed evidence... even if the judges/jurors didn't see it that way?

I know far less about the case against RG. I know he has consistently admitted being at the cottage, where RS and AK made ill-advised statements under pressure and then recanted.

The investigation of AK and RS was so incompetent at every level, from forensics to interrogation to prosecution, that I don't honestly know whether to believe any of the supposed evidence against them.
 
  • #830
It's strange. The item which I find the most convincing for an earlier TOD is that her jacket was wrestled off.
You mean her sweatshirt? What does that prove exactly?
 
  • #831
  • #832
I think the evidence shows AK and RS were at RS' apartment until 10 pm and MK was dead within minutes of that.

As for AK's fluency in Italian, I don't think a week spent with RS proves she had the fluency to enter into a murder conspiracy with RS and RG. I don't even know that she and RS spent much time talking during that week.

What evidence shows that?

What about taking classes in an old Italian town, sleeping with an Italian for a week, endless other interaction with Italians, etc. I think she could at least function in Italian. IIRC she spoke of talking to RS alot about his past and his mom at least.
 
  • #833
What evidence shows that?

What about taking classes in an old Italian town, sleeping with an Italian for a week, endless other interaction with Italians, etc. I think she could at least function in Italian. IIRC she spoke of talking to RS alot about his past and his mom at least.

That's a very different level to planning a murder.

For starters, Italian classes will have covered vocab such as the family and will have covered past tense, whereas the vocab of murder and cover-up would hopefully not be taught and the future tense is one of the last grammatical areas language classes will cover. Of course, if it were premeditated she could easily look everything up and plan it ahead, but if it were spur of the moment I just don't buy her being able to handle that.

When I went on my year abroad to Russia after spending two years at Uni studying it intensively, there is no way I would have been able to negotiate a murder with natives who were not fluent in English. Absolutely no way. Especially not well enough to agree on an alibi no matter how flimsy it may be perceived as!
 
  • #834
I know far less about the case against RG. I know he has consistently admitted being at the cottage, where RS and AK made ill-advised statements under pressure and then recanted.

The investigation of AK and RS was so incompetent at every level, from forensics to interrogation to prosecution, that I don't honestly know whether to believe any of the supposed evidence against them.

Didn't the same crime techs collect the evidence against him? Didn't the same lab test the evidence used against him? Wasn't he prosecuted by Mignini? What was the evidence botched or mishandled in his case? These wide-reaching general statements are kind of misleading regarding 'incompetent' IMO. Why no protest for his incarceration due to a incompetent investigation?

He admitted being at the cottage, but now he admits AK and RS were there too. He also said he had a 'date' with Meredith. Perhaps AK set up this date in the first place and he isn't lying about that part. He claims to have tried to help Meredith, that only leaves two more (that were there) people as the possible murderers.
 
  • #835
Didn't the same crime techs collect the evidence against him? Didn't the same lab test the evidence used against him? Wasn't he prosecuted by Mignini? What was the evidence botched or mishandled in his case? These wide-reaching general statements are kind of misleading regarding 'incompetent' IMO. Why no protest for his incarceration due to a incompetent investigation?

He admitted being at the cottage, but now he admits AK and RS were there too. He also said he had a 'date' with Meredith. Perhaps AK set up this date in the first place and he isn't lying about that part. He claims to have tried to help Meredith, that only leaves two more (that were there) people as the possible murderers.

Some good points there fred.

The only thing I would say is that for one reason or other (and I could go into all the possible ones if needed, though I doubt it is) there seems to be a huge consensus that RG is guilty at least partially for MKs murder.

So far as I can tell there is no debate on that, which is WHY the trial for him is not coming into question. Perhaps this is short-sighted of us because technically it should still matter.
 
  • #836
That's a very different level to planning a murder.

For starters, Italian classes will have covered vocab such as the family and will have covered past tense, whereas the vocab of murder and cover-up would hopefully not be taught and the future tense is one of the last grammatical areas language classes will cover. Of course, if it were premeditated she could easily look everything up and plan it ahead, but if it were spur of the moment I just don't buy her being able to handle that.

When I went on my year abroad to Russia after spending two years at Uni studying it intensively, there is no way I would have been able to negotiate a murder with natives who were not fluent in English. Absolutely no way. Especially not well enough to agree on an alibi no matter how flimsy it may be perceived as!

Why does it have to be 'planned'?

I would think that she could function in Italian, since she knew for quite a while she would be going there. She also conversed with RS for a week and lived with two Italians before that without too much trouble it seems.

We can agree to disagree on the language barrier, I have accepted this fact with Nova already. What were your studies in Russia if you don't mind saying?
 
  • #837
Why does it have to be 'planned'?

I would think that she could function in Italian, since she knew for quite a while she would be going there. She also conversed with RS for a week and lived with two Italians before that without too much trouble it seems.

We can agree to disagree on the language barrier, I have accepted this fact with Nova already. What were your studies in Russia if you don't mind saying?

Pleasure to be asked that!

I did my BA in Russian (language) and Film Studies, so had to spend a year in Russia taking language classes and living with crazy host families. After two years of studying the language before then it still did not prepare me for the shift!

What I meant by it being planned is that to actually have the vocabulary in the foreign language to facilitate the act I would imagine she would need to have at least deliberately learned some extra words pertaining to violent acts or clean-up actions. Particularly true if that theory about AK shouting commands is to be believed... unless she was sitting with her finger in a dictionary :crazy:

But you're right about the language barrier debate, it has been addressed a lot and people cannot seem to agree on anything. Still, it is fun to speculate IMO!
 
  • #838
You mean her sweatshirt? What does that prove exactly?

I thought she was wearing a jacket. And this was the first time I'd seen this evidence list posted this way. I thought her jacket was sitting on the back of her chair, which indicates she came home, took off her jacket, and threw it on her chair.

If her jacket was still on, then I think she wasn't home long. On a personal level, it speaks to me the strongest. I find that strange, because it is the least scientific piece of evidence. Just a personal thing.
 
  • #839
RG is the only suspect who didn't become a suspect until the evidence pointed to him. ILE decided on AK and RS before the evidence had spoken, so they had to lie and commit unethical and scientifically irresponsible investigative gymnastics to try to force the evidence to implicate AK and RS, and even then it didn't fit very well.

AK and RS couldn't name RG because they didn't know who committed the crime. They didn't know because they weren't there.
 
  • #840
I thought she was wearing a jacket. And this was the first time I'd seen this evidence list posted this way. I thought her jacket was sitting on the back of her chair, which indicates she came home, took off her jacket, and threw it on her chair.

If her jacket was still on, then I think she wasn't home long. On a personal level, it speaks to me the strongest. I find that strange, because it is the least scientific piece of evidence. Just a personal thing.

It was a blue zip-up Addidas jacket. It was found on the floor covered in blood with the sleeves turned inside out. Personally, I find the sleeves turned inside out very telling.
It was then thrown into a laundry hamper by PLE and later collected on December 18th.

Here it is November 2nd.



You can watch the December 18th collection videos here:

http://www.oggi.it/focus/attualita/...mento-del-gancetto-del-reggiseno-di-meredith/
 
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