Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[Nova]

*Perhaps they should have gone to the Memorial thing for Meredith, instead of smoking pot and going out to eat. Perhaps they should have stayed clear-headed if there was the possibility of at least one of them being questioned that evening. Odd behavior yes, paranoid maybe from smoking pot... stupid definately IMO.

*Why does the police saying 'they have proof they were there' have ANY effect on a totally innocent person? They were not tortured! Why become 'unnerved'??? Potty breaks and after-pizza snacks excluded.

"I don't know" or "I have no idea what you are talking about" works just fine.
Whether they accept it or not has no bearing, you are innocent. Instead... ask to be shown the PROOF that you were at the crime scene or not telling the truth.

Most people under suspicion of murder are disliked, it is only natural. IMO their behavior and statements are what made them the 'odd ones out' and brought them under suspicion.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the was plenty of stress on AK and RS... just the exact cause of that stress is viewed much differently between you and I :innocent: .

BBM: But that's the problem. Simple protestations of innocence do not "work just fine" in cases of coerced statements.

Most of us have little to no experience with being called liars, with being accused of unspeakable acts, with dealing with implacable interrogators who insist over and over and over that night is day.

I think I might be able to handle it, but only because I've read extensively about this case, the WM3 and other cases of coerced testimony. People whose only real knowledge of criminal cases is the "Mr. Policeman is your friend" lesson from kindergarten are at quite a disadvantage.

 

[emyr]

Maybe you should edit in 'IMO'???

How can stating you were at the crime scene, you met the murderer, the murderer went to the cottage with you, you were in the kitchen with your eyes closed when you heard a scream of the victim being MURDERED not be admitting being involved???

Perhaps :innocent: you can contribute to the discussion a bit more.

"involved" typically is interpreted to mean you knowingly participated or caused the murder. Amanda stated she was in another room when the murder was committed by her boss (who actually did not commit the murder.)

 

[Nova]

How is attacking their lawyer and claiming he is after the money not attacking the Kerchers? Is he supposed to be misrepresenting them and going on his own to gain money for himself? What money is he supposed to be getting anyway?

Huh? Any person may have pure motives but hire a lawyer who is out for the money. The former is a party to the crime or tort, the latter is a hired gun.

ETA: The above is merely a fact and not a slam against defense attorneys or plaintiffs' attorneys; they are often the "heroes" of the legal system.

 

[Nova]

I believe you stated 'if the forensics don't back it up' then the investigator has to change their theory.

Since their theory was the AK was involved, why would they need to change their theory after AK admitted being involved and accused another of the murder??? I believe that would be evidence enough to back up the suspicion.

Because her statement was quite obviously false! If not obvious at the outset, certainly obvious as soon as she declared it a dream and painfully obvious the moment forensics began to come in.

Keeping part of the statement and simply subbing RG for PL is not following the evidence; it's sheer laziness (if not out and out prejudice against Americans).

 

[Nova]

Maybe you should edit in 'IMO'???

How can stating you were at the crime scene, you met the murderer, the murderer went to the cottage with you, you were in the kitchen with your eyes closed when you heard a scream of the victim being MURDERED not be admitting being involved???

Perhaps :innocent: you can contribute to the discussion a bit more.

Nothing in your summary of AK's remarks admits to involvement in the murder. She admitted being in the next room (and that, of course, was untrue).

 

[Nova]

Okay, I found an example of a Sargeant who confessed to sexually abusing an 11-year-old boy after one hour of questioning. (see number 3)
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/coerced.htm

Great link, emyr. Thanks so much.

It mentions another factor in forced coercions that we haven't talked much about: the promise of immunity or less punishment. Telling AK that she would go to prison for 30 years if she didn't admit meeting PL is an offer of immunity in negative form.

 

[Malkmus]

Ok, I get it now. I still think there is a big difference between attacking someone in a group and 'lying' to police. I don't necessary see them as weak. Especially AK showed exactly the opposite during her trials. Still I don't think any of them would have attacked Meredith by themselves. The group dynamic made it worse because IMO they supplement each other in all the wrong ways.

The examples of coercions shown in this thread show exactly that this is no coercion. The examples showed coercions in a monotone setting with 1 or 2 interrogators. I have not seen any example of coercions in a room full of people. The examples also showed coercions usually take a very long time and not just a few hours. The few people that falsely confess in a few hours are usually kids or people with low mental capability like Karl Fontenot. Both AK and RS are bright young students. I would recommend to read the trial testimony of AK (available on PMF). Even the biggest 'friends' start to frown reading that gibberish

Sherlock, of all the materials I've read regarding karl Fontenot, none have mentioned him having anything close to what you claim. What disorder exactly do you know of that he had? "Low mental capability" is very vague.

 

[Malkmus]

Okay, I found an example of a Sargeant who confessed to sexually abusing an 11-year-old boy after one hour of questioning. (see number 3)
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/coerced.htm

It would be nice if those who think AK is guilty would read this in full as I believe incredulity towards false confessions is the heart of the issue with this case.

 

[Nova]

It would be nice if those who think AK is guilty would read this in full as I believe incredulity towards false confessions is the heart of the issue with this case.

And, alas, the heart of many cases. I've certainly had my eyes opened since I first started reading about the West Memphis 3 in the late 1990s.

I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU, but I too tended to trust LE and assume that people without mental disabilities would never confess. Boy, have my eyes been opened!

 

[wasnt_me]

The photos left the impression that the police had been so sloppy that the fact that their single piece of evidence against Raffaele had been extracted six weeks after the photos were taken made it dubious. Assistant Prosecutor Manuela Comodi rose and interjected that the mess in Meredith’s bedroom was nothing more than "Proof of good police work.”

Burleigh, Nina (2011-08-02). The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox (Kindle Location 4583). Broadway. Kindle Edition.

 

[wasnt_me]

Hi everyone!

It's been a few days - gotten caught up in the horrible riots here in London so will need to take a while to catch up on things before rejoining the debate! Have I missed any key news?

What do you mean "caught up?" In the news or in the streets?

:waitasec:

Hope it was just in the news. If it was in the streets, then I'm glad you're okay.

 

[SMK]

The photos left the impression that the police had been so sloppy that the fact that their single piece of evidence against Raffaele had been extracted six weeks after the photos were taken made it dubious. Assistant Prosecutor Manuela Comodi rose and interjected that the mess in Meredith’s bedroom was nothing more than "Proof of good police work.”

Burleigh, Nina (2011-08-02). The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox (Kindle Location 4583). Broadway. Kindle Edition.

I think that the bra clasp being collected and used against Sollecito after a 6 week span is highly suspicious.
I also think the mess they left is not only unprofessional, but it was disrespectful to the victim. If I were Meredith's family, I would not like to see her possessions in such disarray. There must be a neater way of doing things. Her shoes, her hot water bottle, it just looks sad the way they are dumped in a dung heap, as it were.

For example, compare this crime scene photo of JonBenet Ramsey's bedroom to Meredith's bedroom above:

 

[Nova]

The photos left the impression that the police had been so sloppy that the fact that their single piece of evidence against Raffaele had been extracted six weeks after the photos were taken made it dubious. Assistant Prosecutor Manuela Comodi rose and interjected that the mess in Meredith’s bedroom was nothing more than "Proof of good police work.”

Burleigh, Nina (2011-08-02). The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox (Kindle Location 4583). Broadway. Kindle Edition.

I know I need to read Burleigh's book, but I swear it seems as if one can say just about anything in an Italian courtroom, with or without supporting evidence.

 

[Nova]

I think that the bra clasp being collected and used against Sollecito after a 6 week span is highly suspicious.
I also think the mess they left is not only unprofessional, but it was disrespectful to the victim. If I were Meredith's family, I would not like to see her possessions in such disarray. There must be a neater way of doing things. Her shoes, her hot water bottle, it just looks sad the way they are dumped in a dung heap, as it were.

For example, compare this crime scene photo of JonBenet Ramsey's bedroom to Meredith's bedroom above:

I couldn't agree more.

 

[wasnt_me]

Did you see the video of them cramming MK's things into that suitcase?

If I were in the Kercher family, I'd be so appalled and inconsolable to see her things treated this way. I do not know how the Kerchers beared seeing any of these photos, truthfully. I don't envy them.

 

[wasnt_me]

I still do not understand why they scrubbed the bloody footprints off the floor in the corridor and around the bed, however, they left the blood smears on the floor, and they constantly stepped in said smears.

Why again did the prints have to come up off the floor? I also "heard" they didn't even notice RG's corridor footprints for hours after discovering the murder.

 

[wasnt_me]

Nova, the book is quite entertaining as well as informative.

For example, I have asked where are the pictures of glass on top of FR's stuff. Here's the answer:

The defense lawyers insisted that what was supposed to be glass on top of a blue dress on the bed was actually a white dot pattern in the fabric. No one denied that or even bothered to explain what could have happened to the damning glass on top of the clothes in Filomena’s room.

In the last minutes of the trial, it was clear that no photographic proof of “glass on top of clothes” even existed and that it didn’t matter anyway.

Burleigh, Nina (2011-08-02). The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox (Kindle Locations 4604-4606). Broadway. Kindle Edition.


It's so unfathomable that this is unproved, yet in the MOT as fact.

 

[sherlockh]

Okay, I found an example of a Sargeant who confessed to sexually abusing an 11-year-old boy after one hour of questioning. (see number 3)
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/coerced.htm

Thanks. The article also explains why this person was vulnerable. That case reminds me of the Norfolk Four where it is explained that people in certain professions that are trained to have an absolute respect for authority are more vulnerable to coercions.

 

[sherlockh]

Sherlock, of all the materials I've read regarding karl Fontenot, none have mentioned him having anything close to what you claim. What disorder exactly do you know of that he had? "Low mental capability" is very vague.

Some info on his mental capabilities came forward in his appeal although the court did not agree with his reasoning.

Fontenot argues in his first proposition that his confession was not voluntary and should therefore have been suppressed. He claims that the police used improper and coercive interrogation techniques to exploit his mental deficiencies. According to Fontenot, his explicit waiver of Miranda4 rights and subsequent confession was no more than the product of police exploitation of his low mental capability.

http://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/court-of-appeals-criminal/1994/11525.html

 

[SMK]

Did you see the video of them cramming MK's things into that suitcase?

If I were in the Kercher family, I'd be so appalled and inconsolable to see her things treated this way. I do not know how the Kerchers beared seeing any of these photos, truthfully. I don't envy them.

Yes, just awful, as it must have been for the Kerchers.