Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[SMK]

A strange thing to say when there is the judges report which explains all the reasons and what they base the TOD on. Saying there is no basis is ignoring the analysis of dr. Lalli, several professors and consultants and the judges. They conclude TOD was around 11-11:30pm. It also so happened that around that time an extremely loud scream was heard by 2 witnesses. I think it is not so strange to think that was Meredith.

It is stated several times in the report that just basing the TOD on digestion is not reliable. Stretching the TOD to 9pm is done only by a few conspiracy theorists on the internet so it would seem that Meredith was attacked right after she came home. However, we also know that she ate a mushroom after she got home and probably drank something like a glass of wine, so such a scenario isn't possible anyway.

From the reasonable arguments I have read, I believe the TOD was more in the 9:30 range. I agree the scream is telling, and yet I have read things which discount the scream and later TOD, such as Doug Bremner's Rebuttal to Angelface. I do not believe there are conspiracy theories, just opposing viewpoints...in any case, from Sep 5-10 the prosecution will go at it, and then this fall it will be up to Judge Hellman and the jury to decide this phase of the appeal....

 

[SMK]

@sherlock:
There is also the problem of the ear witness mixing up her nights. See:

Ear witness against Amanda Knox mixed up nights

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/04/14/ear-witness-against-amanda-knox-mixed-up-nights/

 

[sherlockh]

@sherlock:
There is also the problem of the ear witness mixing up her nights. See:

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/04/14/ear-witness-against-amanda-knox-mixed-up-nights/

The problem for the defense is that witnesses like Capezzali and Curatolo have been very detailed in what they witnessed. Saying they don't remember exactly the day or date so therefore whatever they have to say isn't important anymore isn't going to work IMO.

Capezzali had never heard such a horrible scream ever before in her life. It is a total coincidence that exactly at the time the scream occurred she passed by the window on the way to the toilet. Curatolo was very specific about where the couple was standing, what they were doing and what they were looking at. And we know that at that time of the night there was indeed something to look at near the cottage gate. These small details are important and determine the reliability of these witnesses.

 

[OldSteve]

Honestly, all i can think is that AK might have gone home to get clothes and stuff since they had a trip the next day. RS didn't want her to walk alone because it was dark, so he drove her. They arrived, maybe spent time in the house and discovered blood etc while they were getting stoned. Maybe they didn't see the window because the door was closed and MK's door was closed but not locked. They might have eventually opened MK's door because they realized they hadn't seen her for a couple hours and it was getting later. Then they saw the murder, flipped out, locked the door and got the heck out of there. Its possible that RG was in the vacinty, returning to check out the crime scene and saw them running out of there.

That's all I can think of.

I can't think of a scenario, where AK knows she has to work that night, that she can somehow meet up with RG between 815pm and 840pm (850pm at least if she was talking to RS's friend at the house) to hook up with RG and escalate a murder by 930pm. RS can arrive later on, but at least AK has to be there.

The murder must happen by 10pm or the phones do not have enough time to get to the garden by 1013pm. Unless the prosecution is right and the defense is wrong that the phone wasn't in the garden at 1013pm.

Also the scenario has to include a need for AK and RS and RG to keep themselves separated into two camps for all this time, meaning no one has rolled over on anyone in all this time, and the closest one of them got was saying he saw someone who looked like RS and "heard" Ak's voice, after months and months of exposure to media-based "facts." I just can't believe that if AK didn't participate, but saw RG, she wouldn't have told that. Why after all this time isn't RS saying the hell with Ak and RG, so he can get out of jail?

I don't know. T

Agree with your analysis! Only thing I might add is that one of the two (AK/RS) upon seeing MK's body, might have covered MK with the duvet.... the covering of her with the duvet is something that has bothered me in this case - it's a classic action of someone showing respect for the victim...

If either AK/Rs did cover MK, it creates a problem since it could be argued if they knew enough to do that, then why didn't they call LE.

RG might have covered her. Do not know if he was ever asked that question before he had a chance to read or hear how she was found... To me, that is something very important for LE to have learned..

 

[Malkmus]

The problem for the defense is that witnesses like Capezzali and Curatolo have been very detailed in what they witnessed. Saying they don't remember exactly the day or date so therefore whatever they have to say isn't important anymore isn't going to work IMO.

Capezzali had never heard such a horrible scream ever before in her life. It is a total coincidence that exactly at the time the scream occurred she passed by the window on the way to the toilet. Curatolo was very specific about where the couple was standing, what they were doing and what they were looking at. And we know that at that time of the night there was indeed something to look at near the cottage gate. These small details are important and determine the reliability of these witnesses.

Capazelli has an imagination when it comes to recalling things.

“That morning, while I was cleaning the house, I heard the boys come running. Signora, Signora, they have killed a girl in that cottage. (…) Then I went out to get some bread.”

Response: “It was 11 a.m. and I stopped off at the newsstand and there already headlines like this, that spoke of this girl.”

It is an incovertible fact that the corpse of Meredith was discovered at 1:30 p.m. on November 2. Therefore, at 11 a.m. no one knew of the death; much less, that morning was it possible for the local newspapers to speak of the homicide.

If she can completely fabricate hearing about the murder the next morning and seeing it in the newspaper headlines before such news was ever printed then that seems more than enough to discredit her as a witness right there. Not only that, but Massei cherry-picked what portions of her testimony fit the evidence. She heard multiple people supposedly running from the cottage, but Massei concludes that because AK/RS had to stay and clean-up that it was just Rudy she heard running.

 

[SMK]

Agree with your analysis! Only thing I might add is that one of the two (AK/RS) upon seeing MK's body, might have covered MK with the duvet.... the covering of her with the duvet is something that has bothered me in this case - it's a classic action of someone showing respect for the victim...

If either AK/Rs did cover MK, it creates a problem since it could be argued if they knew enough to do that, then why didn't they call LE.

RG might have covered her. Do not know if he was ever asked that question before he had a chance to read or hear how she was found... To me, that is something very important for LE to have learned..

Guede may have covered her, but I must admit, I intuited that Knox did. May not be true at all, just always hit me at the gut level......but if Guede did try to staunch the flow of blood with towels, as he said, and as the evidence showed, then perhaps he might have covered her from regret at what he had done...

 

[Malkmus]

Agree with your analysis! Only thing I might add is that one of the two (AK/RS) upon seeing MK's body, might have covered MK with the duvet.... the covering of her with the duvet is something that has bothered me in this case - it's a classic action of someone showing respect for the victim...

If either AK/Rs did cover MK, it creates a problem since it could be argued if they knew enough to do that, then why didn't they call LE.

RG might have covered her. Do not know if he was ever asked that question before he had a chance to read or hear how she was found... To me, that is something very important for LE to have learned..

Outlining the case against Knox, prosecutor Giuliano Mignini said he believed she was the prime suspect because 'the body of Meredith Kercher was covered by a duvet, and only a woman would want to cover another naked woman's body'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Knoxys-lawyers-claim-shred-evidence-her.html

Personally, I think anyone could have covered the body, including Rudy, for the simple reason that it would be hard to look at while rummaging through her purse or for fear of someone seeing the body through the keyhole.

 

[Malkmus]

A strange thing to say when there is the judges report which explains all the reasons and what they base the TOD on. Saying there is no basis is ignoring the analysis of dr. Lalli, several professors and consultants and the judges. They conclude TOD was around 11-11:30pm. It also so happened that around that time an extremely loud scream was heard by 2 witnesses. I think it is not so strange to think that was Meredith.

It is stated several times in the report that just basing the TOD on digestion is not reliable. Stretching the TOD to 9pm is done only by a few conspiracy theorists on the internet so it would seem that Meredith was attacked right after she came home. However, we also know that she ate a mushroom after she got home and probably drank something like a glass of wine, so such a scenario isn't possible anyway.

Sherlock, how would you explain the family sitting outside the cottage during this time waiting for the tow truck who heard no such scream, nor saw anyone fleeing the cottage? There we have several eyewitnesses who contradict Capazelli, who unlike her, did not give conflicting testimony. SO why should we believe her over them?

 

[emyr]

The problem for the defense is that witnesses like Capezzali and Curatolo have been very detailed in what they witnessed. Saying they don't remember exactly the day or date so therefore whatever they have to say isn't important anymore isn't going to work IMO.

Capezzali had never heard such a horrible scream ever before in her life. It is a total coincidence that exactly at the time the scream occurred she passed by the window on the way to the toilet. Curatolo was very specific about where the couple was standing, what they were doing and what they were looking at. And we know that at that time of the night there was indeed something to look at near the cottage gate. These small details are important and determine the reliability of these witnesses.

The problem for the PROSECUTION is they have been very detailed in what they witnessed. Capezzali heard several people running, but she should have only heard Rudy. Curatolo saw the buses (which were not there that night), and he was quite specfic about that, as that was what helped him remember the time the two people were out there. If there were no buses, then there is no way for him to remember the time.

 

[Malkmus]

The problem for the PROSECUTION is they have been very detailed in what they witnessed. Capezzali heard several people running, but she should have only heard Rudy. Curatolo saw the buses (which were not there that night), and he was quite specfic about that, as that was what helped him remember the time the two people were out there. If there were no buses, then there is no way for him to remember the time.

I've been noticing a pattern when it comes to eyewitnesses in this case. On multiple accounts, said witnesses have given incriminating testimony around events they believe happened, just on the wrong day. Curatolo swears he saw AK/RS at the basketball court - but on the wrong day, as realized by his account of the buses; Capazelli says she heard a scream and the next morning saw the headlines - again the wrong day; and when Rafaelle told police that Amanda had left him that night to go to Le Chic and a party, those events did happen - only it was the night prior. I wonder if this is a common police tactic.

 

[sherlockh]

Sherlock, how would you explain the family sitting outside the cottage during this time waiting for the tow truck who heard no such scream, nor saw anyone fleeing the cottage? There we have several eyewitnesses who contradict Capazelli, who unlike her, did not give conflicting testimony. SO why should we believe her over them?

Tow truck left at 23:15 so the scream would have been after the truck left.

 

[sherlockh]

The problem for the PROSECUTION is they have been very detailed in what they witnessed. Capezzali heard several people running, but she should have only heard Rudy. Curatolo saw the buses (which were not there that night), and he was quite specfic about that, as that was what helped him remember the time the two people were out there. If there were no buses, then there is no way for him to remember the time.

Why are you yelling? Why she should have heard only Rudy? The problem for the prosecution is that Curatolo pretty much gives AK and RS an alibi for the whole night. I am guessing the judge will dismiss him and come up with a bit more logical scenario then arriving after 11pm and hanging out at the basketball court for hours.

 

[Malkmus]

Tow truck left at 23:15 so the scream would have been after the truck left.

Thanks for the clarification. I still find it hard to believe that everyone was keeping hush-hush, basically waiting for the tow truck to leave to kill Meredith. Any thoughts on all the other problems with the eyewitness testimony?

 

[Malkmus]

Why are you yelling? Why she should have heard only Rudy? The problem for the prosecution is that Curatolo pretty much gives AK and RS an alibi for the whole night. I am guessing the judge will dismiss him and come up with a bit more logical scenario then arriving after 11pm and hanging out at the basketball court for hours.

Because that's what Massei concluded in his report. It never made sense to me anyway that Amanda and Rafaelle would go running from the cottage after killing Meredith. Why would they? Rudy I can understand. He didn't live there, and would want to get the heck out of dodge.

 

[Malkmus]

Why are you yelling? Why she should have heard only Rudy? The problem for the prosecution is that Curatolo pretty much gives AK and RS an alibi for the whole night. I am guessing the judge will dismiss him and come up with a bit more logical scenario then arriving after 11pm and hanging out at the basketball court for hours.

Not to speak for Emyr, but I've noticed that you've taken my own posts the wrong way and think I/posters are "yelling" at you. So to clarify, sometimes we bold or capitalize words to emphasize their importance. It isn't yelling.

 

[sherlockh]

Because that's what Massei concluded in his report. It never made sense to me anyway that Amanda and Rafaelle would go running from the cottage after killing Meredith. Why would they? Rudy I can understand. He didn't live there, and would want to get the heck out of dodge.

I don't think Massei is right in every little detail. They ran. Meredith screamed very loud. Somebody might have heard her (and indeed some people did) and could have called the police or could have been coming. According to Rudy it was RS (in his tale the Italian guy) who wanted to get the heck out of dodge, so AK (and RG) followed. Rudy's bloody shoe prints don't stop at the front door. That door was already opened for him.

 

[sherlockh]

Thanks for the clarification. I still find it hard to believe that everyone was keeping hush-hush, basically waiting for the tow truck to leave to kill Meredith. Any thoughts on all the other problems with the eyewitness testimony?

Yes, I already clarified the problems with Curatolo. I don't see any problem with Capezzali. The court noted the inaccuracies but what really matters is that what she heard is reliable. The scream was confirmed by Monacchia and Rudy (whose statements are now part of this appeal).

In spite of some inaccuracies in the presentation, especially in reference to the time when the newspaper kiosk posters published news of the homicide, it is held that the deposition of the witness is reliable with regard to the scream and to the noises then heard on the iron staircase and in the square in front of the house in Via della Pergola.

Several times in the course of her own deposition Mrs. Capezzali spoke of a special scream, heart-rending to the point that after she heard it she could not get back to sleep; a scream the likes of which she had never heard before. If there had not been such a scream, and if Mrs. Capezzali had not actually heard it, then the Court can see no reason why she would have spoken about it.

The fact that other people, who were heard on this point, stated that they did not hear any such scream, does not detract from the reliability of the statements of Mrs. Capezzali, having declared that she had heard a scream when she had woken up to go to the bathroom.

It is also held that the indication given by Mrs. Capezzali at some points of her deposition, according to which the day after she heard the scream she is supposed to have seen the posters with the news of the murder, should not weigh upon the reliability of the deposition and on the exactitude of her memory relating to the scream and its date.

In fact, Mrs. Capezzali specified and made clear that at night there was the scream and in the morning there was the finding of dead girl. (page 51) It is therefore to be held that the strong impression made by the scream heard that night and the succeeding discovery of the lifeless body of the girl, with the significance given to the event by the newspapers for days and days, catalyzed the attention of Mrs. Capezzali, making it difficult for her to reconstruct the precise sequence in regard to the newspaper posters which continued to give news of the murder.

Furthermore, the scream which Mrs. Capezzali talked about found confirmation in the deposition of the witness Antonella Monacchia, which was taken at the same hearing (page 99 and following). She also spoke of ‚an extremely loud scream‛ heard that night.

 

[wasnt_me]

Agree with your analysis! Only thing I might add is that one of the two (AK/RS) upon seeing MK's body, might have covered MK with the duvet.... the covering of her with the duvet is something that has bothered me in this case - it's a classic action of someone showing respect for the victim...

If either AK/Rs did cover MK, it creates a problem since it could be argued if they knew enough to do that, then why didn't they call LE.

RG might have covered her. Do not know if he was ever asked that question before he had a chance to read or hear how she was found... To me, that is something very important for LE to have learned..

RG didn't say anything about that in the skype call. I know that much, but he also said she was full dressed....so....I don't think it's impossible that he covered her, but I also don't think that it's impossible that someone like Rs, AK, or even FR discovered the body, covered her, and locked the door. The thing is, the leaving the door wide open part just doesn't seem to match any of the roommate's behavior.

I would think if FR happened to come by there and discover it, she would have made sure the door was locked because her computer was in there. Also, I think AK would have locked the door for a similiar reason. I just don't think either of the homeowners would have left the door wide open all night. Unless, of course AK was lying about that. If you're staging a break-in and (as other people theorize) you break the worst window, then I'm not gonna take the leap that you are cunning enough to think leaving the door wide open makes the burlgarly more believable. As some have said asked why RG didn't go back out the window, I'd think a stager might assume the "burglar" would go back out of the window. The only reason he wouldn't is if he were carrying something like a TV or couldn't see to get back down. Anyways, I don't think a stager would be thinking about that and thus leave the door wide open or lie that the door was wide open. They'd just assume the police would believe the burglar entered and exited from the same point.

So since I think that and don't think AK or FR would have been careless in locking up the house and keeping Mk's resting place from being disturbed, I have to believe one or two things, AK lied about the door being wide open or AK and RS weren't there.

RG on the other hand, did not know about the trick door. So I can see him closing it, but it coming back open. The police did the same thing. I saw a picture of the door with the gate closed and police tape on it, but behind the gate, the door had come open.

 

[wasnt_me]

Thanks for the clarification. I still find it hard to believe that everyone was keeping hush-hush, basically waiting for the tow truck to leave to kill Meredith. Any thoughts on all the other problems with the eyewitness testimony?

The scream was supposedly heard 2 hours after she went to bed. She claimed to have gone to be between 9 and 930pm. So the scream should have been heard while those people were out there. And if it were a scream of that portions, more than just Nara would have heard it.

She remembered that on the evening of November 1, 2007 she went to bed around nine or nine thirty in the evening.
[88] She did not look at the clock but she usually went to bed about that time.
She remembered that she had gotten up to go to the bathroom after sleeping for a couple of hours or a little more. She stated precisely that when she went to bed she would take some pills which she needed to make her go to the bathroom and they took effect after about two hours.

MOT page 95

She can't say for certain when she went to bed, and she can't say for certain when she got up. She claimed she heard a scream she didn't hear and she claimed she saw a newspaper story that wasn't even printed yet.

I think the abnormal scream and noise she heard was the tow truck loading up the car.

My only question is why didn't the bum on the bench hear this Nazgul type scream that Nara heard? Again, how does MK's scream carry through the cottage walls and the closed windows across the street and traffic noises straight to Nara's closed windows?

Antonella heard a man and a woman arguing in italian and THEN a scream. What man is arguing with what woman? If it wasn't outside the TOD, I'd say it was MK and RG. The weird thing is that RG says he saw the tow truck outside when he was on the street. The couple who said a black man knocked into them saw the tow truck on the street.

 

[emyr]

Not to speak for Emyr, but I've noticed that you've taken my own posts the wrong way and think I/posters are "yelling" at you. So to clarify, sometimes we bold or capitalize words to emphasize their importance. It isn't yelling.

Precisely right. I'm a scriptwriter and I never underline, always capitalize. It draws the eye when people are in a hurry and gets across the salient information rapidly. It's a habit. Sorry if it's confusing, I'll try to stop.

Screaming is all caps, like this "I DO NOT AGREE WITH ANY OF THIS!"