Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

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  • #441
I disagree. There is no way anyone is going to make me believe that prosecution experts do not receive payment for testifying

You misunderstand, I thought you were talking about the prosecutors, not the experts, who I referred to earlier as being paid.

Experts for the prosecution, defense and the courts are traditionally offered monetary compensation for their time and work. This is SOP in all court systems that I'm aware of, with the exception of totalitarian regimes where they testify 'or else'.
 
  • #442
"I got 5 on it!" (You know that's a lyric to a rap song. Might be the title, I don't recall....) :rocker:

5 :twocents:, that is.

Wait, what am I buying?

You might want to keep from betting but I will take the song :giggle:
 
  • #443
  • #444
Hey SkewedView. I posted a few screenshots from Stefanoni's powerpoint in court. She also used some English/American sources. Can you tell me if she selected some good ones that support her testing?

Indeed she did, in terms of establishing that there is a lack of standardization with regards to the analysis of even 'normal' DNA profile interpretation, let alone that which is done for Low Count profiling, which is a sub-field that is woefully poorly developed. There are schools of thought with regards to interpretation, and some Forensic Societies and legal systems prefer one over others, but again, there really is no overwhelming consensus on this issue in the larger forensic community.

It is now up to the court to choose between 'artists' with regards to whether it is PS or V&S that have made the proper 'interpretation'.


ETA: Just in case this makes me seem down on DNA evidence as a whole, I should emphasize that I fully support the use of straightforward profiles in the courts as well as for the identification of remains, but mixed and low count profiling is just too poorly developed as a science for me to feel comfortable with their use in the legal system.
 
  • #445
Hey SkewedView. I posted a few screenshots from Stefanoni's powerpoint in court. She also used some English/American sources. Can you tell me if she selected some good ones that support her testing?

What is even more interesting is the paragraph under the highlighted one of the first jpg
 
  • #446
I believe there is a grave misconception as to the actual number of people that are suppose to be involved with the actual collection of forensics at a crime scene.

Having seen the video I would assume the answer is 47 (counting invited family of course).
 
  • #447
Good closeups of the knife attached. Really how hard would this have been to take apart?
Would not this be something most forensic people would do?
 

Attachments

  • #448
There is no such thing as 'LCN certification'.

They didn't test the DNA because they chose not to, despite it being their task. It has long been established, since the pre-trial, that the material levels on the blade of the knife was LCN. Do you think Judge Hellman is going to appoint independent experts to examine LCN DNA that don't have the machinery or capability to examine LCN DNA?

But I'll answer question anyway, yes they had the machinery and the equipment to extract LCN profiles, as was heard in court this week and they did not do it. This was the primary complaint of the prosecution.

In the first trial and in this appeal, it has been asserted that PS's lab was NOT certified to do the low copy test she did. I am theorizing that this could be the reason they didn't retest the sample, if there was in fact sample left to test. If it's corroberated by others outside the prosecution that there was more to test, then I'll believe it. otherwise, the prosecution has made claims that are no true in this appeal, so I don't take their word for anything.
 
  • #449
Since they are DNA experts and not forensic SCI's, they are hardly qualified to pronounce how many SCI's should be in a room. And as was heard in court, departmental standards were followed. As for 'respecting their opinion', I respect it no more then any other expert on the case, nor is there any reason why I should...especially when they're not CSI's and it's not even their field.

I don't know that they are not qualified to determine it without researching their qualifications completely, but I will give them the respect that Hellmann has in regards to their assertions. Who you respect and how is up to you.
 
  • #450
Because the general line here seems to be, that the prosecution have to disprove every argument the defence presents, including even if it's impossible to prove and no matter how improbable that defence argument is. And that isn't how courts work.

Respectfully, that's not accurate about this site. I've been here since April and the posters here to do expect the prosecution to disprove the defense's theories, because as you said and as I said, that's not how it works. I'm sorry you feel this site is this way, but in my view, it is not.
 
  • #451
Welcome Fulcanelli.

Quoting from the C&V report (bolding mine):

- The quantification of the extracts obtained from the samples obtained from item 36 (knife) and item 165B (bra clasps), conducted via Real Time PCR, did not reveal the presence of DNA.
- In view of the absence of DNA in the extracts that we obtained, with the agreement of the consultants for the parties , we did not proceed to the subsequent amplification step.

Too funny. Now they want a redo.

Oh, thanks for this. I was taking them saying that "no dna was in the extract" to mean NO more sample to test. Why would they and how could they test an extract or sample that is void of anymore DNA? Or am I not understanding this?
 
  • #452
  • #453
Yes he was there were the disco busses and everyone were in costumes and masks. That would then make it the 31st

Again, Nara made the same mistake. Again, why are the bum and Nara believed over RS or AK?
 
  • #454
Originally Posted by SkewedView
To be honest, after doing some research, I found that while PS used a combination of techniques that was unique, she did seem to be attempting to replicate a variety of (at the time) brand new techniques used in studies and 'bleeding edge' labs of the time, one after another, to try to get the results that she desired. Was that reckless, given the lack of study into the viability of those techniques, especially in combination with each other? Yes. Does it look...suspicious, or at least unprofessional? To enough people to present a potential problem, yes. Was it a sign of criminal behavior? Probably not.

The holes in the paper trail and testimony that directly contradicted her own records that were done...well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms (I'm leaning towards plain old sloppiness due to overwork and too much pressure from above to get the results that her bosses wanted - call me sentimental, but I'm back to doubting malign intent here).
.

wasnt_me;7111399 Thanks. with the way you wrote it said:
Using the Qubit Fluorometer™, the following concentration values for the samples were obtained:
•Sample A (sample code ID 47329): 0.08 ng/μl
•Sample B (sample code ID 47330): too low
•Sample C (sample code ID 47331): too low

On the other hand, it is not possible to comprehend the criteria adopted in the assessment of the positive quantification result for sample B and the negative result for sample C, given that the same result, “too low”, was obtained for both samples: that is, a value which must be considered not only below the sensitivity threshold of the Fluorimeter indicated by the manual (DNA concentrations equal to 0.2 ng/μl), but below 0.08 ng/μl, a value which the Fluorimeter detected for sample A.

Nor is it comprehensible, considering the negative results on sample B, what Dr. Stefanoni reported during the GUP questioning (page 178) where she stated that the DNA in sample B, quantified with Real Time PCR (it is recalled that such quantification as confirmed during the hearing was never carried out or, at least, no documentation was provided to support this claim), was “in the order of some hundreds of picograms”, a value which does not appear in any of the documents provided to us (SAL, Fluorimeter report, Real Time report, RTIGF).
http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/c...cation-of-dna/


Additionally, I find it hard to believe that after all that testing and blowing up of the "dna" she did, that there could be anything left for CV to test. How do we know that there actually was? Help, cause it's hard for me to deceipher the report's tech language.

So no one wishes to help me with this question? It seems my questions are being overlooked. If anyone would answer it, It'd appreciate it.
 
  • #455
Thanks. with the way you wrote it, it makes me think that her effort to "cover up" was really CYA herself because she'd been reckless. The prosecution is being challenged in a way that it isn't used to. I think she really thought she could slip her methods under the rug and get away with it, given how it's happened before. Maybe she wasn't being malicious, but overzealous to provide the "correct" results after the rush to judgement about AK and RS.

Still pondering the part of the report where the experts said they couldn't follow how she'd gotten no result for B and I believe C on the knife, but she'd labeled one as such and the other as getting a hit on it. Was it brought up in court two samples with the same result were labeled differently?

So no one wishes to help me with this question? It seems my questions are being overlooked. If anyone would answer it, It'd appreciate it.

Additionally, I find it hard to believe that after all that testing and blowing up of the "dna" she did, that there could be anything left for CV to test. How do we know that there actually was? Help, cause it's hard for me to deceipher the report's tech language.

There were several things found in the samples, none of it cellular material. It also tested negative for blood. The list of the extracts is found in the following section:

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/...tocentrifugation-to-detect-cellular-material/
 
  • #456
  • #457
.

wasnt_me;7111399 Thanks. with the way you wrote it said:
Going to give this a shot wasnt_me. What I will try and do is give a brief overview then give backup info from the experts report all from the same link which is provided in your post. (My comments are bolded)

We know at this point that the knife tested negative for blood and Stephanoni received a too low reading for both sample b and c and is below the 50 rfu threshold but she decides that sample b had biological material. As you can see from their report the experts are perplexed


"On the other hand, it is not possible to comprehend the criteria adopted in the assessment of the positive quantification result for sample B and the negative result for sample C, given that the same result, “too low”, was obtained for both samples: that is, a value which must be considered not only below the sensitivity threshold of the Fluorimeter indicated by the manual (DNA concentrations equal to 0.2 ng/μl), but below 0.08 ng/μl, a value which the Fluorimeter detected for sample A."

From the SAL's they know that the extraction was on a specific date as is stated below:

"Extraction of DNA

"The Work Status Report (SAL) shows that:
• the extraction of DNA from samples A-B-C was performed on 13.11.07;"


We then find out that she did not use Real Time quantification but Qubit Fluormeter without knowing what the concentration of the DNA is in sample b. so the theory presented by Dr. Gino appears to have been taken up by Stephanoni when Dr. Gino testified that it was LCN DNA and that she only performed the amplification once which it appears she knew was not acceptable

" Amplification

• On the other hand, considerable perplexity arises about the quantity of DNA extracted from sample B which would have been added to the reaction mix. The conditional is necessary [1], in that the extract from sample B was quantified using the Qubit Fluorometer™ and although having given an uninterpretable result (“too low”) was considered “positive”, in contrast to sample C which, although being “too low”, was considered negative!
• We learn from the transcript of the GUP questioning that Dr. Stefanoni concentrated the volume of the extract from sample B several times.
• In particular, she stated having first concentrated the extract from an initial volume of 50 microlitres “to around 20, 22, 23 microlitres” (GUP page 178), and of having subsequently carried out Real Time quantification of the total [amount of] DNA, and not of the DNA of masculine origin.
• Since from the Real Time quantification (never carried out!) she obtained a concentration of “a few hundred picograms of DNA” (GUP, page 178) she took steps to further concentrate the extract in order to obtain a final volume of 10 μl which she would have used for the PCR reaction.
• We consider that quantification was not even performed on the final volume, since there is no confirmation either in the documentation in the case file (SAL, Real Time report, RTIGF) nor was such a circumstance ever reported by Dr. Stefanoni in the course of her questioning.
• In practical terms, an amplification was performed without knowledge of one of the basic parameters: that is, the concentration of the DNA possibly extracted from sample B.
• What is surprising is that, given the delicate nature of the testing, quantification of samples B and C was not carried out with Real Time – as happened for samples D-E-F-G – to ascertain if a Low Copy Number (LCN) sample was being dealt with, for which a different and more complex procedure should have been adopted.
• The theory that this was a sample which could have been considered LCN was proposed by Dr. Gino in the course of the GUP hearing, and was endorsed by Dr. Stefanoni (“Yes it is possible, certainly!”, page 178) who, although conscious of the problems associated with samples of low DNA quantity (Low Copy Number), did not consider it appropriate to apply any of the precautions recommended by the scientific community in the case of LCN.
• It is emphasized that the amplification was performed only once (pages 21-22, transcript of the GUP questioning. To the question, “…the testing of a trace of this sort should be repeated several times to be considered reliable?” The Technical Consultant replies: “In theory yes”. To the question, “How many times did you do it?” she responds, “In this case only once”."

We then know that the experts required more information which Stephanoni did not want to turn over until ordered to do so. The experts note that the peaks are well below 50 rfu. The experts then find out that she did not repeat the amplification and instead did 2 runs of the same amplification in which they note allele loss/additional peaks. Stephanoni did not perform either the negative control or the positive control which is critical. The experts then feel that it is important to present some information with respect to issues related to LCN DNA

Capillary Electrophoresis

"Since the electrophoretic graphs, produced both in CD-ROM and e-mail format, do not differ from each other in any significant way (c.f. peak heights), for ease of exposition our comments here relate to the electrophoretic runs dated Sept. 23 2008, 10:35 AM and Sept. 25 2008, 01:17 PM, but are equally intended to apply to the electropherograms dated May 11 2011, 04:48 PM and May 11 2011, 04:36 PM.

From an examination of Electrophoretic Run 1, dated &#8220;Sept. 23 2008, 10:35 AM, it must be noted that: 1) this graph shows peaks which are clearly below the 50 RFU threshold (it is emphasized that 50 RFU is the threshold recommended by the kit manual, and it is not advised to go below this point); b) the alleles are imbalanced in that the ratio between many peaks is <0.60 (Gill P. et al., 2006).

Regarding the assessment of the peak heights in sample B, the Technical Consultant was specifically asked (GUP, page 20) &#8220;When in your experience do you define an RFU value as rather low?&#8221; and answered: &#8220;below 50, I start to take greater care in the assessment&#8221;. Responding to the explanations requested by the GUP (page 21) about the sample with identification code 47330 (sample B, Exhibit 36) &#8211; &#8220;Perfect! What do we have here?&#8221; &#8211; the Technical Consultant replies: &#8220;Well, here we have a genetic profile which certainly has a lower R.S.U. [RFU?] intensity than the previous one&#8221;. Q: &#8220;In the order of&#8230;?&#8221; A: &#8220;Let&#8217;s say we&#8217;re in the order of, let me see, again the same genetic point that I defined earlier, at which we see a 41 and a 28&#8221;. Q: Therefore for you there would already be a bit of a risk, as we said before a little bit low?&#8221; A: &#8220;Yes, yes, yes&#8221;.

Again, responding to a question from Dr. Biondo (transcript of the GUP hearing, page 72): &#8220;There was another aspect for which, when one does a DNA analysis where the peaks, the heights reported in R.S.U. are low, you said there was a risk. Can you explain this risk?&#8221; The Technical Consultant replies: &#8220;Well, there&#8217;s a risk in the sense that in practice when I evaluate a genetic profile which has rather low peak heights, roughly below 50 RFU, 50, 60, I risk performing an operation which is something, so to speak, that no forensic geneticist would wish to do, and that is to poorly interpret that profile&#8230;that is, in the sense that I might make a mistake in the assessment, assess a peak in an erroneous manner because perhaps it is too low, and therefore perhaps run the risk of excluding a person who might be the victim from the framework of the investigations&#8230;&#8221;

The following question is reported on pages 21-22 of the GUP questioning: &#8220;&#8230;the testing of a trace of this sort should be repeated several times to be considered reliable?&#8221; The Technical Consultant replies: &#8220;In theory yes&#8221;. To the question, &#8220;How many times did you do it?&#8221; she responds: &#8220;In this case only once&#8221;. Q: &#8220;Just once, and therefore in theory why ought it to be considered more reliable if it is done several times?&#8221; A: &#8220;Because reproducibility of the result is, let&#8217;s say, a good standard in any scientific experiment quite apart from forensic genetics, obviously to be considered valid a result must be repeatable&#8221;.

In fact, the Technical Consultant did not repeat the amplification of the extract but performed two electrophoretic runs of the same amplification. From a comparison of the two separate runs, the existence of peak imbalance and inversion is immediately obvious, to the point where in some cases there is allele loss or the presence of an additional peak (c.f. electrophoretic graphs, runs 1-2, Sept. 2008).

In addition, it must be noted that neither the negative control &#8211; which, as previously mentioned, could have indicated the presence of possible contamination &#8211; nor the positive control, which would have allowed the effectiveness of the selected experimental conditions to be monitored, are present in the electropherograms produced.

From what has previously been stated about the analysis of the electropherograms relating to sample B, it is inferred that the quantity of extracted and amplified DNA must have been very low, falling within the definition of Low Copy Number (LCN) or Low-Template DNA (LT-DNA).

It is considered appropriate at this point to provide some clarifications about the definition of the term Low Copy Number, and to outline the experiences, suggestions and recommendations of the International Scientific Community aimed at trying to resolve some of the most frequent problems associated with biological samples of low DNA quantity (LCN)

Issues noted with respect to LCN DNA by the experts are as follows

"Low Copy Number (LCN) or Low Template DNA (LT-DNA)

&#8226; greater potential risk of error in comparison with conventional STR typing protocols;
&#8226; errors of interpretation due to allele drop-in, allele drop-out, peak height imbalance and large stutter peaks;
&#8226; the need for a robust and reliable quantification method in order to determine the amount of DNA available for analysis;
&#8226; LCN profiles are not generally reproducible and, due to the potential for error, the probative value of the results may not be evaluated correctly;
&#8226; the interpretation of profiles derived from mixtures using LCN typing is problematic, and at the moment there are no interpretation guidelines based on reliable validation studies;
&#8226; due to the sensitivity of the method and the types of samples analyzed (for example, &#8220;touch&#8221; samples), the LCN profile may not be relevant to the specific case;
&#8226; the evidence cannot be used for exculpatory purposes;
&#8226; instructions about the proper collection of items and protocols regarding their handling have not been clearly established or communicated;
&#8226; reagents, consumables and laboratory instrumentation can contain low levels of extraneous DNA which may complicate the interpretation of LCN typing results"

In the conclusion the experts note that DNA was not revealed on the knife but they did find starch. It as well tested negative for bleach.

Conclusions (2)

"- The cytomorphological tests on the items did not reveal the presence of cellular material. Some samples of item 36 (knife), in particular sample &#8220;H&#8221;, present granules with a circular/hexagonal characteristic morphology with a cental radial structure. A more detailed microscopic study, together with the consultation of data in the literature, allowed us to ascertain that the structures in question are attributable to granules of starch, thus matter of a vegetable nature.
- The quantification of the extracts obtained from the samples obtained from item 36 (knife) and item 165B (bra clasps), conducted via Real Time PCR, did not reveal the presence of DNA.
- In view of the absence of DNA in the extracts that we obtained, with the agreement of the consultants for the parties, we did not proceed to the subsequent amplification step

ITEM 36 (KNIFE)

Relative to the genetic analysis performed on trace A (handle of the knife), we agree with the conclusion reached by the Technical Consultant regarding the attribution of the genetic profile obtained from these samples to Amanda Marie Knox.

Relative to trace B (blade of the knife) we find that the technical analyses performed are not reliable for the following reasons:

1. There does not exist evidence which scientifically confirms that trace B (blade of knife) is the product of blood.

2. The electrophoretic profiles exhibited reveal that the sample indicated by the letter B (blade of knife) was a Low Copy Number (LCN) sample, and, as such, all of the precautions indicated by the international scientific community should have been applied.

3. Taking into account that none of the recommendations of the international scientific community relative to the treatment of Low Copy Number (LCN) samples were followed, we do not accept the conclusions regarding the certain attribution of the profile found on trace B (blade of knife) to the victim Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, since the genetic profile, as obtained, appears unreliable insofar as it is not supported by scientifically validated analysis;

4. International protocols of inspection, collection, and sampling were not followed;

5. It cannot be ruled out that the result obtained from sample B (blade of knife) derives from contamination in some phase of the collection and/or handling and/or analyses performed."

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/contents/conclusions-2/
 
  • #458
Having seen the video I would assume the answer is 47 (counting invited family of course).

OMG Did you actually count them? From the video? Then get 47?

You have simply made my day am laughing so hard :giggle:

Do I dare ask if this number includes the people from the visits IIRC the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 14th of November as well as the break in :giggle:
 
  • #459
Of course they expected scrutiny. They knew their evidence would have to go through the GIP, the GUP, the High Court, a full pre-trial, a full trial and two automatic appeals, under the full scrutiny of judges, lawyers and scientific experts. They have done their job before, so they kind of know.

But if you mean they didn't think their work would come under attack with endless <modsnip> theories, each nuttier then the last, you're probably right that they didn't expect that.

I disagree. If Stefanoni were aware of the scrutiny her work would fall under she wouldn't have been busted by the independent experts for her numerous errors which were so obvious on the video of the evidence collection. Are you saying their report is just a bunch of "<modsnip>" theories? If the pair are found innocent by Hellman will that mean he believes in a conspiracy too?
 
  • #460
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