Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[Fulcanelli]

Actually this is wrong. There are a couple of labs which are certified to do LCN DNA testing. I will state though again that this is still an area of controversy

In America? This isn't America, this is Italy, there is no special 'LCN certification'.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Everything when it is suggested that prosecution experts do not receive compensation only defense experts

They call it a 'wage'. Lots of jobs have wages. Strange, but true.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Sorry I don't have alot of sympathy for someone that tries to cover their butt by trying to introduce false evidence, lying under oath, etc. on more than one occasion

Strange that no judges thought that she had lied under oath, despite their actually being there.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Indeed she did, in terms of establishing that there is a lack of standardization with regards to the analysis of even 'normal' DNA profile interpretation, let alone that which is done for Low Count profiling, which is a sub-field that is woefully poorly developed. There are schools of thought with regards to interpretation, and some Forensic Societies and legal systems prefer one over others, but again, there really is no overwhelming consensus on this issue in the larger forensic community.

It is now up to the court to choose between 'artists' with regards to whether it is PS or V&S that have made the proper 'interpretation'.


ETA: Just in case this makes me seem down on DNA evidence as a whole, I should emphasize that I fully support the use of straightforward profiles in the courts as well as for the identification of remains, but mixed and low count profiling is just too poorly developed as a science for me to feel comfortable with their use in the legal system.

The consensus is the technology. If the technology exists, then it should be done.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Good closeups of the knife attached. Really how hard would this have been to take apart?
Would not this be something most forensic people would do?

You'll have to ask C & V. They made no formal application to do so.

 

[Fulcanelli]

In the first trial and in this appeal, it has been asserted that PS's lab was NOT certified to do the low copy test she did. I am theorizing that this could be the reason they didn't retest the sample, if there was in fact sample left to test. If it's corroberated by others outside the prosecution that there was more to test, then I'll believe it. otherwise, the prosecution has made claims that are no true in this appeal, so I don't take their word for anything.

No, the certification had nothing to do with 'LCN testing' and the certification was a new one, only having just recently been created. No labs in Italy at the time had them and the Rome lab was the first in Italy to get the certification. Moreover, they had to change nothing nor introduce nothing new to get it as they were fully up to the certification standard. This was all heard in the trial and is in the Massei Report. It isn't an issue, never was.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I don't know that they are not qualified to determine it without researching their qualifications completely, but I will give them the respect that Hellmann has in regards to their assertions. Who you respect and how is up to you.

We don't know 'what' respect Hellman has for their assertions yet, do we? And we won;t know, until the judges write their report.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Respectfully, that's not accurate about this site. I've been here since April and the posters here to do expect the prosecution to disprove the defense's theories, because as you said and as I said, that's not how it works. I'm sorry you feel this site is this way, but in my view, it is not.

Not if the defence has no evidence for them and they are 'speculative'. The most the prosecution has to do is provide an argument in rebuttal. The judge will then decide which has weight.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Again, Nara made the same mistake. Again, why are the bum and Nara believed over RS or AK?

Because RS and AK have lied repeatedly (and have reason to lie) and because Nara and Curatolo have other witnesses that lend support to their testimony.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I disagree. If Stefanoni were aware of the scrutiny her work would fall under she wouldn't have been busted by the independent experts for her numerous errors which were so obvious on the video of the evidence collection. Are you saying their report is just a bunch of "<modsnip>" theories? If the pair are found innocent by Hellman will that mean he believes in a conspiracy too?

Since she and her lab are involved in 4.500 crime scene examinations per year, I think she knows all about scrutiny.

And since it was the independent experts that were busted when it came to the prosecution's and victim's experts turn to testify in response, I don't follow.

As for what Hellman believes, we'll find out what he believes when he writes and publishes his report.

 

[Fulcanelli]

emyr,

Bleach interferes with luminol, but the effect dissipates in less than a day, IIRC. There are some papers about it in the forensic literature (link to one here). However, it is the only substance of which I am aware for which this is true. I cannot see why one would need to wait six weeks. Here is a quote from the paper by Kent and colleagues (J Forensic Sci. 2003 Jan;48(1):64-7.): "If time allows, an alternative method for reducing interference from hypochlorite bleach is to wait several days until the bloodstains have dried thoroughly, by which time the hypochlorite will have decomposed."
ETA
The paper by Creamer and colleagues entitled, "Attempted cleaning of bloodstains and its effect on the forensic luminol test" in the journal Luminescence, Volume 20, Number 6, 2005, is a good resource.

The CSI's may want to use a variety of chemicals on the crime scene themselves, which luminol may interfere with.

If you read the published CSI literature, you woll see that it is general practice that luminol is applied last in any crime scene. There is no rush in any case, since it will reveal blood that is months or even years old.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Yes it was RS's family that noted that the number of rings in the prints did not match what was at the crime scene and simply took the time to count them

Again I simply shake my head at the pink bathroom picture

It wasn't quite as simple as that.

 

[emyr]

Knox and Sollecito had just finished eating pizza with Sollecito's friends at 10 PM before Sollecito was asked to go to the police station to answer a couple of questions. Knox went along for fun and to do her stretchy splits and cartwheels. She was questioned from about 11:30 until 1:30 after Sollecito admitted that he told police a load of rubbish and lied because Knox asked him to lie. So ... no ... she shouldn't have been starving when she first accused Patrick of rape and murder.

The parents initially used the word beaten, and I've posted that quote here in the past. I don't have time to look for it. Knox still claims that the only reason she accused Patrick is because she was bopped on the head twice, and out popped Patrick's name. Last Friday, through her lawyer, she claimed that she no longer remembers why she accused Patrick.

Police asked her about a message on her phone. They did not introduce Patrick's name to the conversation, and they certainly didn't ask her to accuse her boss of rape and murder.

Regardless of whether many of Meredith's friends and acquaintances were kept waiting at the police station while they were interviewed, one after the other, that does not constitute 54 hours of interrogation for anyone. Liars, like Knox and Sollecito, were obviously asked to return to the police station to explain the discrepencies between their statements and the facts. If that required several interviews, so be it. If they had been truthful and innocent at the outset, they would not have been asked to return to answer more questions.

I didn't ask if she was starving, nor do I think she went to the police station for fun and to do stretchy splits and cartwheels. I asked if she had been denied food and water during her questioning. I believe that is true. I don't find that to be as important as the fact that there were over a dozen people in the room and that they were aggressive and antagonistic. But it is true.

Her parents should not have used the word beaten. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't understand the truth, and then corrected the story, but it would not shock me if they spun the truth to favor their daughter. If they spun the story, they shouldn't have done it, and it was wrong, and it means anything they say in support of their daughter should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for your statements about the police simply showing her a message on the phone, I think it is still considered coercion to show a person a message on the phone, ask who the murderer is, and refer to the message. From the books written on it, and interviews with the prosecution, it was this message that roused their suspicions against Patrick. They freely admitted that they had cause to believe he was part of the murder because of this message. Amanda's statement that they showed her this message and she shortly thereafter named Patrick seems logical to me.

I don't understand your final comment. I don't think waiting around counts as an interrogation either, and those hours shouldn't be used, or it should be stated (waited 30 hours in police headquarters, questioned a total of 20 hours over 4 days). I do know that Patrick stated Amanda had been complaining of fatigue over her questioning the day prior to her accusing him. He stated that to show contempt for her, so it seems an accurate representation of her mindset prior to the final questioning.

Whether or not she deserved extensive questioning is irrelevant. If repeated multi-day questioning makes it more believable for her to accuse an innocent man, that remains a fact, regardless of the reasons why it was done.

 

[emyr]

Because RS and AK have lied repeatedly (and have reason to lie) and because Nara and Curatolo have other witnesses that lend support to their testimony.

I know of no other witnesses that support Curatolo. Am I missing something?

 

[Fulcanelli]

otto,

Your statement is not the whole truth. Knox was questioned for an estimated 20 hours over the course of several days, and Laura's testimony indicates that Amanda was yelled at before the night of the 5th. One should also factor in that this interrogation was at night at in a foreign language (Knox's Italian was relatively simple at this point). Do you think that the police are free of an agenda in this case? If so, how do you explain their multiple false statements. They weren't even being interrogated.

All of the housemates and Meredith's English friends (especially Sophie Purton) were questioned for many hours in the days leading up to Amanda's arrest (and in the days after). Laura never testified that Knox was shouted at in the earlier days.

Knox was questioned via an interpretor.

Of course, the police have an agenda...to catch the criminals and prosecute them.

 

[emyr]

But there were buses. Who cares if they were disco buses or not? The guy was a tramp, not a disco bus expert.

As for the date, there you go assuming it's just like the USA. They don't do Halloween the same way over there, primarily because it's an imported tradition and it also joins on to the Italian holidays (Saints Day...Day of the Dead), so it is treated like an extended event, rather then one limited to a single night. There were people in costume on the night of the 1st, according to people who were in Perugia at the time.

Actually there weren't private disco buses either. The discos were also closed for the holiday.

EDITED TO ADD:
The prosecution countered that the public buses weren't running but the disco buses were, and people were dressed in costumes on the 1st as well, because Halloween was still being celebrated. As you are stating here. But on the 1st, there were no buses running, not public or private. The discos who regularly ran buses in the Piazzo, both public and private on the 31st were questioned and they confirmed in court that they did not run buses the next day on the 1st, because of the holiday. All of the discos who ran buses on the 31st were questioned and all said they did not run the buses. The prosecution said other discos might have been running buses, but they have never provided a shred of evidence of these mystery discoes. These discos who had not run buses in the Piazza before, but randomly decided to run them the 1st.

Curatolo is remembering events from the 31st, OR his memory is poor and he is getting multiple events confused. Either way, his testimony cannot be used because the truth cannot be ascertained from his memory.

 

[Allusonz]

In America? This isn't America, this is Italy, there is no special 'LCN certification'.

I believe my post was misunderstood. I stated that there were labs certified to do LCN DNA testing. I did not mention where.

There are a couple of labs worldwide which are certifed to test LCN DNA which would include not only N. America but Italy

 

[Allusonz]

It wasn't quite as simple as that.

Actually, if you refer back to the testimony it was that easy. They simply counted the rings on the soles of the shoes of RS and RG

 

[Allusonz]

They call it a 'wage'. Lots of jobs have wages. Strange, but true.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Thus a wage is still being "paid" just as defense experts are "paid".

 

[Allusonz]

You'll have to ask C & V. They made no formal application to do so.

Taking apart the knife often occurs in DNA testing. Why did Stephanoni not take it apart since she is held in such high esteem by some?

This argument does not reflect the position of the experts as they requested taking it apart and it was ruled that if they felt it was necessary they could come back and make another request since the PROSECUTION objected.