Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[SleuthyGal]

But as with so much of this case, the guilt is assumed and then the evidence is reasoned backwards.

That right there is the crux of the problem.

 

[SleuthyGal]

I've seen numerous (valid) holes revealed during the many discussions of the physical evidence. Holes that show the prosecution's case to be questionable and that indicate there is reasonable doubt.

To add to that, I've seen multiple statements taken out-of-context, purposefully, to try to proffer something sinister or twisted when the real verbiage reveals something else entirely, not so sinister, not necessarily lies.

I feel there has been a campaign to try and make AK and RS guilty, and the propaganda has spread far and wide and continues to be spread by the repeating of misstatements, fully intended to mislead.

Seeing misstatements in print really drives it home how people nuance to a specific position.

There is no (good) reason to invent statements or to take an existing (and verifiable) statement, and change it. None that inspires confidence of objectivity, that's for sure.

 

[otto]

But as with so much of this case, the guilty verdict is assumed and then the evidence is reasoned backwards.

conversely ... with so much of this case, the guilt is presumed incorrect, and each piece of evidence is examined in isolation, such that we are left with a story more confusing than the one presented by Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Allusonz]

The staging is alleged to have happened later in the evening ... perhaps between midnight and 4 am, or even as late as 6:30 am. The murder occurred, footsteps were heard clanging up the metal stairs and down the street. It's possible that Raffaele disposed of the phones, as Rudy was seen running up the street towards his apartment - where he changed before showing up at the club and dancing until the morning. It's also possible that the clean up was done in the middle of the night, and also the broken window and staging of the break in ... in the middle of the night by Amanda and Raffaele ... barefoot. In the morning, Raffaele's phone and his computer were on by 6:30am. I think police found that he was playing music on the computer, and his father had phoned that early, yet he maintains that he woke up at 10 am. The question is whether Amanda returned to the cottage to kind of check things out at 10:30 (after a little nap) and make sure that everything was cleaned up ... and the only problem with the scene is that the only light for her bedroom is locked in Meredith's room ... placed on the floor ... presumably to see something on the floor a little better. She claims that she saw the broken glass, blood and open front door, but had a shower and later lunch with Raffaele instead of contacting anyone. She does not apear to have had a shower based on her hairdo ... and neither she nor Raffaele look like they slept.

If the Postal Police had not found the cell phones that morning, and headed over to the cottage, Amanda and Raffaele could have continued cuddling, and then gone on their field trip to another town. Amanda had not returned calls to Filomina, and her calls to Meredith were hardly long enough for a response.

This would then mean that the prosecution witnesses were mistaken in their testimony.

 

[Allusonz]

We've been through this a few times. Amanda was questioned from 11:30 until 1:30, at which time her status was changed from witness to suspect. 1:30 is not particularly late for post-sec. students.

I realize that the Knox PR team has suggested that Amanda was questioned continuously for something like 56 hours, but I'm confident anyone that is interested has checked the facts.

We do know that on November 5th AK attended classes. I would assume that since her friend had been murdered she probably did not have a good nights sleep. I am going to assume that she was probably up by approx 8:00am in order to get ready for school.

We know 12 detectives interrogated her during the night. Now detectives normally work during the day so in order to have 12 detectives on hand we can be pretty confident that this had been planned as they receive paid overtime to do overnight interrogations as their hours are normally during the day.

Usually they tag team thus i believe we can safely assume she was interrogated for 6 hours as normally the team goes for approximately 1 hour each

We have no video/audio copies of the interrogation as they cannot be produced for some reason thus the exact techniques used cannot be stated with certainty but i believe most are conversant with the various types of techniques normally used.

You yourself Otto previously in another thread stated that her interrogation started at 11:00, now you state 11:30, i have heard 10:30 so lets start with 11:00 pm. So far she has been awake approx 15 hours

Again there in some confusion with respect to when she was officially named a suspect as again the audio/video recordings are not available.

We do know that at 5:45am a statement was made. This means she has now been awake for 22 hours.

Of course we have ourselves in these threads, repeatedly posted IIRC and this is not under interrogation, without being sleep deprived, after eating, going to the washroom, and even being allowed to drink at our leisure

I have never heard of any statement signed by 30 LE but AK's statement was signed by 30 members of the Italian police force, 12 of which were confirmed to be detectives.

Imagine 30 Italian police officers signed ONE statement.

 

[SleuthyGal]

From AllusonZ: Imagine 30 Italian police officers signed ONE statement.
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If this is not typical (and I believe it must not be), then it sure makes you wonder why they felt the need to have so many signatures. You'd need another page or 2 just for the sigs! Sorry but that sounds hinky to me. Really strange. Defensive, even!

 

[Salem]

If this is not typical (and I believe it must not be), then it sure makes you wonder why they felt the need to have so many signatures. You'd need another page or 2 just for the sigs! Sorry but that sounds hinky to me. Really strange. Defensive, even!

To me, it sounds like a small town police force, unaccustomed to such grisly murder.

I have NO idea how big this place is, or how many on the police force, or any of that data. I'm just relating to what we see here, in so many threads, when something happens in a small town. The whole police force works the case and they call in experts and the FBI and any one else that might help. So.... if this is a small town, where murder rarely happens, I wouldn't find this unusual at all.

How many murders to they have there annually? Anyone know?

Salem

 

[SleuthyGal]

It's not the number of police officers working the case that I was commenting on, it's the fact that THIRTY police signatures on a witness's (or I guess suspect's) statement were gathered. That seems like a lot of overkill to show the statement was seen/read and notarized as such. Usually there is one or two lead police detectives and they sign the statement (in the U.S. I'm talking about). No idea how it's done in Italy.

 

[Allusonz]

Actually not as small as you would think Salem

2007 census states 163,000 people will have to look up the crime rate i do know that i was surprised at it and it would help if i could read italian rofl

 

[Nova]

The 'spill' or 'leak'... which ever you want to call it was from the drain pipe. Only water that was in the sink would 'leak' out, it would not just keep on leaking as long as the water was turned off. It is quite plain to see that the timing of eating is a lie... unless she was REALLY high on something :liar: .

Yes, but it would leak again if the sink were used again later. That was my point.

Perhaps there was only one leak and it was stopped by 8:30. But that has been assumed by the court and media. I haven't seen any corroboration of the assumption.

 

[Malkmus]

So Amanda was put in a cell at 1:30, and a couple of hours later she asked for paper and pen. Are you suggesting that this was not a voluntary action? Amanda could have slept, she could have waited for a lawyer, she could have done many things ... but she decided to stay up and write a letter; a gift. I guess post sec. students can easily stay up much later than 1:30.

The pen and paper "gift" letter was voluntary, but it was not written until the next day before she was carted off to Capanne prison sometime in the afternoon, long after her 5:45 statement. According to the book Murder In Italy, once she made the 1:45 statement Mignini was called in and he interrogated her until the 5:45 statement.

When Knox initially said she been at the scene of the crime, Ficarra said the questioning on that evening was suspended as is prescribed by Italian law and the prosecutor was called.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/401876_Knoxvogt01.html

I don't know where people have gotten the idea that Amanda was thrown in a cell after the first statement or that she demanded that Mignini be dragged in so she could make the 5:45 statement.

 

[Nova]

They ate fish and salad, and while he was washing the dishes, the pipe broke. When Raffaele spoke to his father, he mentioned dinner and the pipe. His father was able to specify the time was 8:42 ... a complete contradiction with Amanda's claims.

That information is straight from the motivation report, which references various witness sworn statements. If you want access to witness statements that were introduced in court, you'll probably have to travel to Perugia and translate the documents .. or check news reports from November 2007.

Well, I'll chime in. Yes, I read that (at your suggestion) and I, too, would like to know the actual testimony. Because the motivation report is full of assumptions which may be valid, but one can't tell from what is written.

 

[Nova]

conversely ... with so much of this case, the guilt is presumed incorrect, and each piece of evidence is examined in isolation, such that we are left with a story more confusing than the one presented by Amanda and Raffaele.

In the first place, assuming innocence is how the American system works and you can't be surprised to find Americans doing so as a matter of habit.

But since you bring up "confusing stories," let's recall that the prosecutor himself came up with a half-a-dozen theories of the crime over the course of the trial.

 

[Nova]

If this is not typical (and I believe it must not be), then it sure makes you wonder why they felt the need to have so many signatures. You'd need another page or 2 just for the sigs! Sorry but that sounds hinky to me. Really strange. Defensive, even!

I think it's like fishermen crowding into the photo with the big fish: everyone wants in on the famous "catch."

 

[Malkmus]

I hate using anecdotal evidence to prove a point, but this particular instance I can't help but share. When I was in my early twenties, dirt poor, I shared an apartment with three other people, two of which were a couple. I distinctly remember that the couple, also early twenties, got wasted one night and went to a 7-11 down the street. When I woke up the next morning there was a nearly full Big Gulp dumped upside down on the carpet, pink liquid everywhere, and they had left for a day trip to Vegas. There was note on the dining table saying that they would clean their mess up when they returned. This is why I don't find Amanda and Raf's story about cleaning the water up the next day strange. I think some people have forgotten completely what it means to be young.

 

[Malkmus]

In the first place, assuming innocence is how the American system works and you can't be surprised to find Americans doing so as a matter of habit.

But since you bring up "confusing stories," let's recall that the prosecutor himself came up with a half-a-dozen theories of the crime over the course of the trial.

It's also worth noting that had Patrick not had eyewitnesses to vouch for his alibi that we'd be debating over the same type of circumstantial evidence the police had against him. If one looks back at the early articles when Patrick was in jail you will see that they thought he lied about what time he opened the bar due to receipts that conflicted with what he told the police, his cell phone placed him near the cottage when he was actually at his bar, he had switched the SIM card out of his phone with a different one the day after the murder which they found suspicious, and nearly every article makes mention of a "sweat-soaked shirt" that was being analyzed as well as "black hairs" found at the scene.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Hey, does anyone have that "Murder in Italy" book in kindle format? If yes, you can 'loan' it out to someone for a period of 1 week and I'd sure love to read it. I'm going on vacation Thurs.

Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Malkmus]

Hey, does anyone have that "Murder in Italy" book in kindle format? If yes, you can 'loan' it out to someone for a period of 1 week and I'd sure love to read it.

Anyone?

Sorry, just the paperback here. It's pretty cheap on Amazon though.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Malkmus said: It's also worth noting that had Patrick not had eyewitnesses to vouch for his alibi that we'd be debating over the same type of circumstantial evidence the police had against him.

This is an excellent point! We know Mignini was never shy about accusing people of all kinds of crimes over the years. Would we have found P.L. DNA suddenly showing up on some random weapon in numbers too low to test conventionally?

 

[dgfred]

It's also worth noting that had Patrick not had eyewitnesses to vouch for his alibi that we'd be debating over the same type of circumstantial evidence the police had against him. If one looks back at the early articles when Patrick was in jail you will see that they thought he lied about what time he opened the bar due to receipts that conflicted with what he told the police, his cell phone placed him near the cottage when he was actually at his bar, he had switched the SIM card out of his phone with a different one the day after the murder which they found suspicious, and nearly every article makes mention of a "sweat-soaked shirt" that was being analyzed as well as "black hairs" found at the scene.

Worth noting too he did not LIE, imagine or make up stories to explain it, whether they 'thought' he was lying or not. He was in jail for two weeks too, not just a few hours. Big difference IMO.