Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[Nova]

Very true Nova, but it does also illustrate what can happen where there are no checks and balances. That case was true beyond the norm, but it does illustrate how much power they can have

True. It is considered especially serious when truly exculpatory evidence is withheld from the defense. IIRC, that was the case at Duke.

 

[Nova]

Again for your reading pleasure

http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/10/lcn-dna-profiling-part-ii-watch-where.html

So the testing scientist played with the machine until she got the result her boss wanted. No wonder the defense wants all the records so as to challenge the methodology; no wonder the prosecutor wants to withhold that data.

It's so nice when science confirms common sense: AK didn't take a random, foot-long kitchen knife out to use as a toy in the middle of the night.

 

[SleuthyGal]

So the testing scientist played with the machine until she got the result her boss wanted. No wonder the defense wants all the records so as to challenge the methodology; no wonder the prosecutor wants to withhold that data.

It's so nice when science confirms common sense: AK didn't take a random, foot-long kitchen knife out to use as a toy in the middle of the night.

Ya, looks like the smoking gun is nuanced DNA testing on knife.

I remember reading this before and it chilled me. People take DNA results very seriously (as they should), but the results are only as good as the testing methodology, the collection, the handling, and the rigorous attention to making sure everything is done within the exact protocols of the test.

"Do overs," trying to make DNA match a suspect when at first they didn't or there wasn't enough DNA to match should make everyone nervous. Makes you think they weren't very confident about the rest of their evidence to put so much pressure on this knife.

Sounds a lot like someone who needs the evidence to match the theory, doesn't it? That Mignini is bad news, all the way around.

 

[Nova]

Ya, looks like the smoking gun is nuanced DNA testing on knife.

I remember reading this before and it chilled me. People take DNA results very seriously (as they should), but the results are only as good as the testing methodology, the collection, the handling, and the rigorous attention to making sure everything is done within the exact protocols of the test.

"Do overs," trying to make DNA match a suspect when at first they didn't or there wasn't enough DNA to match should make everyone nervous. Makes you think they weren't very confident about the rest of their evidence to put so much pressure on this knife.

Sounds a lot like someone who needs the evidence to match the theory, doesn't it? That Mignini is bad news, all the way around.

Indeed. (To be fair, something less than a true "smoking gun" as the prosecution will claim the knife evidence isn't essential to conviction. But if the knife DNA is thrown out, Mignini has even less evidence to connect AK or RS to the actual rape and murder (and he ain't got much now).)

OT except with reference to DNA: I've watched a 48 Hours twice now about a Michigan man who was convicted of murder 30 years after the fact, based solely on his DNA being found on the murdered woman's clothing. This was the ONLY evidence against him, as the prosecutor couldn't prove the defendant had ever met the girl, owned a car like the one seen on the night the body was dumped, nada--except that he lived 30 or 40 miles away.

And the thing was the same lab matched a spot of blood on the murder victim to somebody who was only 4-years-old at the time of the crime and lived nowhere near the dump site.

Yet the prosecution put lab tech after lab tech on the stand to swear contamination was impossible. And the man (whose only criminal record related to a much later addiction to prescription drugs) was convicted and sentenced to LWOP!

I think a backlash is coming: yes, DNA is great in some cases, but now we're too trusting of sketchy lab reports. ETA as allusonz has said, maybe the Perugia case will be the one that brings proper exposure to problems with DNA testing.

 

[otto]

I would also like to state with respect to LCN DNA that it is NOT widely accepted. There is currently alot of controversy amoung the experts themselves. There are very few labs world wide that are even authorized to do LCN DNA testing and there is a reason for it. Again, I have posted many links in previous threads to this.

These are VERY LOW numbers when you are discussing this and even 1 picogram is added through contamination or other methods it could conceivably change the entire results.

Yes, there has been some allowed, but this again had to do with much higher numbers than what we are discussing here for the most part

 

[otto]

Otto,

If you have access to human-translated appeals, could you point them out to me? I have only found machine-translated copies -- I would love to find them in a more readable format.

Scroll down on this page

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2010/08/10/news/amanda-knox-motivation-document-first-english-tra

 

[otto]

So the testing scientist played with the machine until she got the result her boss wanted. No wonder the defense wants all the records so as to challenge the methodology; no wonder the prosecutor wants to withhold that data.

It's so nice when science confirms common sense: AK didn't take a random, foot-long kitchen knife out to use as a toy in the middle of the night.

It is nice when science confirms ...

Merdith DNA

Knife DNA

The two superimposed

When LNC DNA is compared to a sample, it can be considered a match, although the peaks are not as high. I don't think the question is whether the LNC DNA is Meredith's DNA, but moreso the argument seems to be that the DNA was found on the knife due to contamination ... thus the appeal request for more information about the dates when the knife was tested.

 

[otto]

Again for your reading pleasure

http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/10/lcn-dna-profiling-part-ii-watch-where.html

Is this a blog with an agenda?

 

[Nova]

That one judge ruled such evidence admissible (while his counterpart in California refused to allow it) doesn't tell us much. As a rule, judges aren't scientists. Often they are no better prepared to judge scientific testimony than lay people.

 

[Nova]

It is nice when science confirms ...

Merdith DNA

Knife DNA

The two superimposed

When LNC DNA is compared to a sample, it can be considered a match, although the peaks are not as high. I don't think the question is whether the LNC DNA is Meredith's DNA, but moreso the argument seems to be that the DNA was found on the knife due to contamination ... thus the appeal request for more information about the dates when the knife was tested.

Actually, some of the peaks are higher, some are lower. And the graphs we are seeing are those, if I understand the science in allusonz' link, that resulted ONLY after a great deal of other material was deemed "background noise." To my eye, no match. But I readily admit I am not qualified to make that call.

This is not to say I don't appreciate the links, because I very much do, otto.

 

[otto]

That one judge ruled such evidence admissible (while his counterpart in California refused to allow it) doesn't tell us much. As a rule, judges aren't scientists. Often they are no better prepared to judge scientific testimony than lay people.

In 2009 it was denied, in 2010 it was accepted. I see this as a trend that follows in the footsteps of validation of standard DNA, or even fingerprint analysis. If you were in the courtroom 15-20 years ago, then you know that early DNA arguments were very drawn out scientific debates that ate up days of court time until DNA evidence became widely accepted. Those early trials, establishing the validity of DNA analysis, often required experts in statistical analysis. I expect a similar process was required before fingerprint analysis was widely accepted. What I see is the same drawn out argument and debate regarding the validity of LNC DNA ... and we are seeing that it is increasingly accepted.

 

[Monzoo]

Scroll down on this page

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2010/08/10/news/amanda-knox-motivation-document-first-english-tra

Thank you! Is there an English translation of RS' appeal?

 

[otto]

Thank you! Is there an English translation of RS' appeal?

If you click on the Knox appeal, you go to another page that also includes the Sollicito appeal.

 

[Malkmus]

Well hey.
Has anyone in the pro-AK circles found out who AK's 'special' friend was that she was calling just after the murder and before she was arrested?

Hey, Hey dgfred!
I wouldn't expect anyone to identify who Amanda called until that story stops becoming a rumor. Perhaps if it ever becomes a reality, Amanda herself will explain who it is.

'The prosecution denied' :maddening: ... it is the Judge's decision, the prosecution can not deny anything.

The news reports and appeals state otherwise.

Surely since the prosecution got a conviction, based on the knife evidence already presented they think any further testing is not needed.

If more of Meredith's dna is found... IMO the defense will wish they hadn't asked for additional testing.

The defense should be hoping (really hoping) the experts find the evidence already presented on the knife lacking in some way. Their only hope really.

IMO, the defense has no problem testing the knife because they know for a fact that it's not the murder weapon.

 

[Allusonz]

It is nice when science confirms ...

Merdith DNA

Knife DNA

The two superimposed

Thanks Otto this is the same stuff you posted in earlier threads and again i will remind you

As a result, repeating the same LCN DNA tests on identical starting samples of material does not produce nearly identical profiles, unlike conventional DNA testing

 

[Allusonz]

Thanks again Otto this is the one you produced previously and again there is still alot of controversy

 

[Allusonz]

Is this a blog with an agenda?

Not to my knowledge, these are not my credentials these are the credentials of the person that wrote the article just so that everyone knows

Mark Waterbury
Hi, some credentials, so you'll know that I know what I'm talking about. I've got 4 science and engineering degrees, including a Ph.D. in materials science and 20 years of experience. I've been a scientist for the Air Force, an engineer for a major engineering firm, and CTO for two companies. I've developed a number of measurement techniques, hold several patents, and have worked on a wide range of scientific projects. I've performed technology reviews for some of the largest companies in the world, sorting through claims of scientists and engineers and communicating the results to lay persons. I've worked in the brand integrity field, what is commonly called, "anti-counterfeiting" for several years. I've recently started my own firm, Perception Development Co., (www.percdev.com) and am now providing consulting services and developing a variety of new products and technologies

 

[Nova]

In 2009 it was denied, in 2010 it was accepted. I see this as a trend that follows in the footsteps of validation of standard DNA, or even fingerprint analysis. If you were in the courtroom 15-20 years ago, then you know that early DNA arguments were very drawn out scientific debates that ate up days of court time until DNA evidence became widely accepted. Those early trials, establishing the validity of DNA analysis, often required experts in statistical analysis. I expect a similar process was required before fingerprint analysis was widely accepted. What I see is the same drawn out argument and debate regarding the validity of LNC DNA ... and we are seeing that it is increasingly accepted.

The arguments regarding lie detectors go back even further and they are still not accepted in any court. So let's don't assume the process always goes from exclusion to acceptance.

And in any event, one CA judge in 2009 and one NY judge in 2010 do not a "trend" make.

But frankly, even if the court decides that the tiny bit of matter on the knife is MK's DNA, I will still assume it was incidental transfer from AK, who was in close contact with MK and also had access to RS' kitchen.

It simply makes no sense that AK went running around Perugia at night carrying a foot-long kitchen knife. Nobody has come up with a reasonable explanation for why she would do so.

 

[Nova]

...IMO, the defense has no problem testing the knife because they know for a fact that it's not the murder weapon.

Exactly!

And the prosecution doesn't want additional testing because they know full well that knife wasn't used in the murder. IMHO, of course. They were lucky to get the knife into evidence and anything else found on it can only hurt them.

 

[Malkmus]

And in any event, one CA judge in 2009 and one NY judge in 2010 do not a "trend" make.

The best adjective for LCN DNA testing has been and still is "controversial".